Federal Law Is Destroying My Hunting Grounds

[JRP2]

for the last 15 years I have hunted public land in the north east corner of Washington state. We used to love this area, few hunters and lots of sizeable white tails. For the first 10 years we never spent a week in the area without seeing at least 5 trophy bucks. Over the last 5 years however the white tails have been almost none exsistent. We are seeing a lot more moose but very few white tails and no trophy anamals at all. Two years ago while playing cards in camp and listening to Led Zeplin it all became clear. As the singer howled in the Hammer of the Gods a pack of wolves howled back. Has anyone here noticed a reduction of the whitetail population in there hunting grounds that they attribute to the increase in wolf activity?

Last year after not seeing a single animal on opening day we drove and hour soth to some public land near colville and both tagged out that morning. In a much more heavily hunted area.

[thallub]

Today the white house announced that grey wolves are de-listed in eight states. Wolves in the eastern 2/3 rds of WA are de-listed. I's an act of congress and the wolf huggers can't appeal.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110504/...us_gray_wolves

[JRP2]

its about time, but liberal washington state will take years to let us cull them

[kraigwy]

Looks like we didn't get invited to the party.

Wednesday's announcement leaves the fate of about 340 wolves in Wyoming unresolved. Wyoming was carved out of attempts to restore state control over wolves because of a state law that would allow the animals to be shot on sight

[Deja vu]

I am glad to see they are talking about doing some thing here in Idaho the lolo area has been severely hurt by over populations of wolves.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Two years ago while playing cards in camp and listening to Led Zeplin it all became clear. As the singer howled in the Hammer of the Gods a pack of wolves howled back. Has anyone here noticed a reduction of the whitetail population in there hunting grounds that they attribute to the increase in wolf activity?

Good Lord, how loud were you playing the music?

[jglsprings]

Good Lord, how loud were you playing the music?

If it's too loud, you are too old...

Your flashback to the seventies for this evening.

[Art Eatman]

Even back in the 1960s when I was handsome, suave and debonair, I didn't like loud rock music. And, sure enough: Permanent hearing loss for a high percentage of those who did the disco thing at the evening Meet Market or regularly got close to the stage at rock concerts.

An ear-doc buddy of mine laughed that my shooting was no more harmful than rock music. Good for sales of hearing aids. Kept him in 450 SLs.

[lawnboy]

I'm not a wildlife biologist, but it has always been my understanding that wolves were intelligent animals that tend to target young, weak or sick animals. This should make for more trophy bucks, not less.

What are the actual harvest numbers for the GMA's you hunt? They should be available on the WDFW website. Do those numbers support your contention?

[BikerRN]

Wolves, if not very carefully and intensely managed, are an abombination to game herds.

That is why I believe the only good wolf is a dead wolf.

Biker

[jimbob86]

but it has always been my understanding that wolves were intelligent animals that tend to target young, weak or sick animals. This should make for more trophy bucks, not less.

Trophy bucks are weak at the end of the breeding season, when the snow is the deepest, the food the scarcest, and if they have not dropped their racks, they are the slowest runners in a herd.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by lawnboy

I'm not a wildlife biologist, but it has always been my understanding that wolves were intelligent animals that tend to target young, weak or sick animals. This should make for more trophy bucks, not less.

What are the actual harvest numbers for the GMA's you hunt? They should be available on the WDFW website. Do those numbers support your contention?

You can't have trophy animals without young animals that grow into trophies.

Wolves kill "x" number of deer. Among those "x" deer are future trophies and mothers of future trophies.

Wolf kills do not lead to "more" of anything.

[jimbob86]

What are the actual harvest numbers for the GMA's you hunt? They should be available on the WDFW website. Do those numbers support your contention?

Who you going to believe? A government employee, or your lyin' eyes?

I am SURE that WDFW would never fudge any survey numbers, either..... ...... if there's any federal money for them in managing the wolves, now or possibly in the future, why would they have reason to cause the public to become alarmed?

Government agencies are like living things: interested above all in survival and growth.

[JRP2]

ok just checked the harvest reports and it indicates that the deer harvest is dowm by 30% over the last 10 yearsin the GMU I hunt

[JRP2]

and we were playing music from our car with 6 speaker bose, we were playing cards in the tent so the music was pretty loud but more importaint we set camp deep in the woods, there is no ambient moise from humans and our music likely traveled quite a long ways especially with the bose speakers

in the past it was uncommon but you would see a lone wolf in a field from time to time, at one time we had a pack of wild dogs run through our camp in the dead of night. but we have never heard or seen more than one wolf at a time.

[YARDDOG(1)]

If I see a wolf in N/Fl I'm shootin it
Y/D

[mrbro]

JRP2, deer are scared off by hard rock, but cool jazz brings 'em in close.

[JRP2]

as they are scared of the smell of smoke from our camp fires and wood stove. we set up camp in the valley and hunt up the mountain a few miles. gets you away from the road hunters and lets you enjoy yourself in camp without the burden of worrying about noise, smells, and the such. Seems the wolves liked Led Zeplin though but only the one song? I will say it is a majestic place to camp however. The sounds of great horned owls hunting at night, along with all the other wild life. Truely is gods country and the mining history becomes quite apparent as you will find abandoned mine shafts and homesteads all over the place. apple orchards in the middle of a forest that were planted over a hundred years ago. an amazing pace. I just hope I can continue to justify a week long hunt trip there in the years to come.

[Art Eatman]

Wondering and rambling a bit: It is my understanding that back when we had the millions of bison doing their migratory pattern, wolves were mostly plains animals. Dunno if that's real accurate, but that's my impression from reading.

There are wolves in caribou country, and caribou migrate. Again, from what I've read, the wolves don't stay with the herds all the way through migration.

Whitetail and elk don't migrate in the same manner as bison or caribou. It could well be that this pattern of existence makes them more vulnerable to the predation of wolves. Wolves are more in the woods, now, because the most readily accessible prey is in the woods.

If I'm correct in this surmise, given the pattern of law we now have, then, "WashDC, we have us a helluva problem."

[Buzzcook]

I've yet to see any solid proof that wolves are the cause of dropping game populations. There is some correlation, just no proof.

Art, wolves were all over North America Before they were extirpated. They are like any other dog in that they fit in just about any environment.

[Sevenfaces]

The wolf population was brought to its knees by man, now theyre rebounding and a strain is being put on their natural food supply. nature will balance if given enough time. <...OT...>

[Art Eatman]

Okay, Buzzcook, next question: Is it correct that there were larger game populations before the wipe-out of the buffalo and the coming of livestock? I've read of the large numbers of antelope and elk seen by the early explorers and settlers.

That is, "back then", the larger numbers of prey animals were not as affected by wolf predation. I dunno.

And I'm aware of the rise and fall in prey/predator relationships...

[mrbro]

I've yet to see any solid proof ...

Buzz, what would it take? Not trying to be a smarta$$, but this is how most discussions I have with someone that can't be convinced start.

[Buzzcook]

Art, to the best of my knowledge there were more game animals of all types.

But there may have been local variation in population levels. Lewis and Clark wrote about the Shoshone being near starvation. That doesn't fit with a game rich environment.

More predators as well. Lewis and Clark wrote of frequent encounters with grizzly.

I'm sure you are very knowledgeable about wildlife.

I'm not sure of which GMU the OP is in. The furthest NE is 113 Selkirk, that covers most of Pend Oreille County.
Here's the harvest report from 2010
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2...lk_gmu_all.php
Total harvest 49

2009
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2...lk_gmu_all.php
Total harvest 71

2008
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2...lk_gmu_all.php
Total harvest 42

2007 (the chart changes form here scroll further down)
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2007/elk_general.php
Total harvest 48 Hunter success rate 3.9%

2006
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2006/elk_general.php
Total harvest 61 Hunter success rate 5.3%

2004 (skipping a year to save time. Now PDF.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2004/elk.pdf
Total harvest 42

2002
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2002/elk.pdf
Total harvest 20

2000
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2000/elk.pdf
Total harvest 21

So there's an overview of elk harvest data for Washington state including 113 Selkirk. I only included Hunter success rate where it was easy to see. In some charts math was required and frankly I didn't want to spend that much time on this.

The OP said that there were fewer game animals and also fewer trophy sized animals. He asserted that this was due to wolf predation. His proof was howling caused by Robert Plant.

The yearly harvest figures for Selkirk don't seem to bear out a claim of diminishing elk. If someone wants to look up harvest by antler points the figures are there.

OK now I feel silly. The OP referenced deer not elk.

Deer total harvest Selkirk 2000 391
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2000/elk.pdf


Deer total harvest Selkirk 2010 388
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2...er_gmu_all.php

If someone wants to do the intervening years be my guest.

[Buzzcook]

Buzz, what would it take? Not trying to be a smarta$$, but this is how most discussions I have with someone that can't be convinced start.

A report from a university, state DFW, or Federal agency that compares wolf populations with game populations, including total number of known game animals killed by wolves.

Since wolves were re-introduced, they have been tracked and studied by several organizations.
It should be pretty easy to say "we know wolves have killed X number of animals" and extrapolate from there for total kills.
Then control for other variables such as food supply and other predators etc.

So if the University of Idaho says there is a huge drop in game population and it is caused by wolves, I'd take there word for it.