Loose arbor, 1851 Navy

Oquirrh · April 22, 2009, 07:54 AM

I've got a STEEL .36 1851 Colt Navy (Pietta). The arbor is slightly wobbly side to side. Can it be retightened? I guess I'm asking how it is attached/pinned, etc.

(By the way, nothing to do with the usual wedge issue--that's fine.)

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

Doc Hoy · April 22, 2009, 08:19 AM

Oquirrh,

I have a brass frame with the same problem. I think it happened as a result of a chain fire incident.

I have been trying unsuccessfully to get hold of a steel frame or a good condition brass frame to fix this pistol. Having failed, my plan is to carefully drill down through the frame and arbor with the arbor in place. I will thread the drilled hole and then counterbore the first 1.8th inch of the hole to accept a screw that I have identified for the fix. I will then tighten the screw into the newly made hole.

I will establish the position of the arbor by assembling the pistol including the frame, arbor, cylinder, barrel and wedge. All other parts will be removed. I am presently making a jig to hold the pistol for the drilling operation. Before I commence the drilling operation, I will make sure that the assembly is correct by checking the interaction of the barrel, frame and cylinder.

I am going to do this operation on a milling machine rather than a drill press because even though my drill press is a very good one, (double overhead cam, four on the floor, dual exhaust...) I am not confident it is solid enough to maintain a perfect location without the bit wandering all over the south forty.

This is my plan for this brass frame Sheriff's model. I consider this pistol, as it is, to be worth only what the parts would fetch. So I don't mind tearing it up. Of course I will try not to do that, but I engage this activity knowing that the most important thing I am going to get out of it is not a fixed pistol, but the knowledge I will gain by doing the deed. If you do this to your pistol and it wrecks the pistol, I never told you anything about it.

ClemBert · April 22, 2009, 09:00 AM

Doc, there are all kinds of places you can buy replacement parts.

Gentlemen...if you would kindly post your favorite links to replacement part houses.

Oquirrh · April 22, 2009, 09:23 AM

In my case, I don't think the wobble is that big of an issue -- I just think the arbor has shaken loose and needs retightened using whatever method was originally used to assemble it. (Of course, I could be absolutely wrong.)

I've shot this rev a lot, but it's STEEL and I seldom used loads over 20 grains of FFFG.

I've replaced the paw assembly and the wedge, so far. I like the pistol a lot and would replace significant parts.

Again, any guidance appreciated.

Doc Hoy · April 22, 2009, 09:43 AM

Show me one which will sell you a frame.

Doc Hoy · April 22, 2009, 09:54 AM

I agree with you but in my case, in order to keep the frame from wobbling I must tighten the arbor past the point at which the wedge will go through. In point of fact it does not take much.

I have tried a new arbor unsuccessfully. My problem is in the threads of the frame itself because brass (the frame) is softer than steel (the arbor).

In your case, the hardness of the steel of the arbor is likely closer to the hardness of the steel of the frame. I would not be surprised to learn, though, that the effect is the same. To tighten it up you must turn the arbor and that can't happen unless it turns exactly half of one rotation.

Others on the forum have had success in using lock-tite type materials. I have not had similar success but my attempts have been limited.

Also, others on the forum have far more experience than I do in correcting this casualty.

Oquirrh · April 22, 2009, 10:03 AM

I looked at a diagram for the Pietta 1851 which shows the arbor held in place by a "base pin" at the rear of the frame (under the hammer). I'm guessing the base pin is driven it to hold the arbor in place (?). I'm going to give it a couple taps with a punch to see if it tightens it up.

http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/sho...etta+1851+Navy

Doc Hoy · April 22, 2009, 11:22 AM

My Sheriff's model does not have such a pin. It probably should but it appears not to be part of the design, at least not that I am able to detect.

Oquirrh · April 22, 2009, 12:30 PM

Here is an excellent discussion of the issue. The arbor is screwed in, then pinned from the rear. If my pin resetting doesn't work, I may have to replace the arbor, which is a bear because you have to drill out the pin.

http://tinyurl.com/d9dujf

Doc Hoy · April 22, 2009, 12:59 PM

Oquirrh,

Excellent data.

But I think I can understand why resetting the pin does not help (assuming of course that I understand the manner of the failure.)

In order for the arbor to have loosened in such a way (partially sheared threads) that would be fixed by turning it further into the frame (which I know is problematic because of wedge slot alignment) the pin would have to have fallen completely out which I am going to assume is very unlikely.

In thinking it over, I would propose that if the arbor is still turned into the frame up to its shoulder (I think some arbors have shoulders and some do not) and if you can get the barrel-cylinder-frame to align for proper operation, the potential fix which I will apply to my pistol is the method I spoke of earlier.

Notwithstanding Clem and yourself, we are still waiting for someone to respond to your question who has a clue.

gmatov · April 22, 2009, 10:52 PM

Uberti, and I presume Pietta and others use a 5/16-18 thread on the arbor.

That's .312. Major diameter of the arbor is same as Colt at .412, so you have .050 on the radius to make a spacer. In other words, a thin shim .312 ID and .412 OD.

18 threads per inch is .055 thousandths per revolution, so, about 6 1/2 degrees per thousandth. SO, if you get the pin out, and the book says to drill with about an .090 drill, should take out the whole thing, you then tighten the arbor snugly and measure the tilt of the wedge slot, in degrees. Each 6 1/2 degrees will be ABOUT how much you have to shim. Ie, if it turns about 30 degrees off level, you'll need about 5 thou in shim to bring it back snug and wedge slot level.

That should also get the pin hole back in line. That, I would tap out to put in a "grub screw", a socket head Allen set screw. Easier to get out the next time you have to repair it.

If you don't have machinery to make the shim, you SHOULD be able to have a shim made relatively cheaply. Turn and bore a piece of steel, part it off and grind it to thickness.

This might be a temporary fix. If the threads are stretching, deforming, rather than shearing, they will do so again after the repair. Light loads, I don't mean squibs, will delay that.

Also, if your arbor bottoms out on your revolver, you may have to refit the end of it to close up the barrel lug, frame fit, since the stretched threads will make the arbor longer in effect.

Another idea I was considering is impractical, as the hammer slot is just over 5/16. Insert a barrel nut. Can't drill a hole big enough for that without opening part of the barrel slot. Heli-Coil, you have to drill oversize to tap, and get the thread start to begin just right to time the arbor slot. How to do that, I don't know. Since the companies sell ready made arbors, I assume they use CNC machines to ensure that the threads on both the arbors and the frame holes start at a precise angle. Screw it tight and the wedge slot is dead level.

A suggestion if you get the arbor out is to spin a 5/16-18 nut on it and see if the arbor threads are distorted, too. Some brasses and bronzes are as hard as or harder than some steels. If the arbor threads are stretched, replacing the arbor, for about 20 bucks, might be an option.

I recommend "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West" to all of you, to learn about them. Long rifle and repeating rifle shooters included, and the early cartridge revolvers.

Cheers,

George

Long winded, I know. Sorry.

BTW, I have checked my sources. Frame is Part No. 1 and have yet not found a vendor who will supply one. I think cartridge gun vendors WILL sell you a replacement frame WITH a background check, as the frame is considered THE GUN. It is the part with the SN on it. You have basically bought a GUN if you buy a modern frame on which to build a custom. Barrels and all other parts are available mail order without background check.

Doc Hoy · April 23, 2009, 05:44 AM

I knew that eventually we would be able to read a post from someone who knows what he is talking about.

CaptainCrossman · April 23, 2009, 06:05 AM

Yup, if these Italian repros are actually fired a lot, they loosen up rather quickly- #2, this is why I'd have a hard time paying more than $200 for any of them- and preferably even less-(unless they are a cartridge conversion, or Walker/Dragoon model)- these repro guns simply are not worth the $250-$400 price tags the distributors have historically put on them in the past. We are talking cheap, non-heat treated, soft steel guns here- if fired a lot, they immediately have problems and need to be repaired. The loose arbor/frame/barrel/cylinder problems exist with the open top Colt replicas- the topstrap designs appear to be trouble free due to their stronger frame.

the only way to keep that wedge tight in a gun that's actually used for shooting on a regular basis, it weld the arbor to the steel frame, then grind down the weld so it clears the hammer when it drops

I see a lot of Colt BP CB guns- most of them are safe queens- the ones that are actually fired a lot, have to be modded to make them "live"- otherwise they have wedge/barrel/cylinder clearance issues, and loose arbors

Oquirrh · April 23, 2009, 02:03 PM

Good information, right on target.

After tapping the pin back in on my Navy, the arbor remained tight through 2 cylinders at 20 grains FFFG. Didn't have time for more testing.

I'm sure it will loosen up again. Until then, I'll fire light loads (15 grains?). Then, decide how to go about a fix or just transfer good parts to another Navy or sell as parts. The brass "Confederate" Colt copies must go to hell in a hurry.

Final question: I'm guessing that a decent quality steel Remington '58 is NOT plagued by similar arbor issues (I've owned three and never had a problem). I've got my eye on a 36 cal. Remington so-called "Navy."

I have a stainless ROA, but it's just not as fun to shoot as the open top colts -- don't know why.

Fingers McGee · April 23, 2009, 06:33 PM

Quote Cpt Crossman:

Quote:

Yup, if these Italian repros are actually fired a lot, they loosen up rather quickly- #2, this is why I'd have a hard time paying more than $200 for any of them- and preferably even less-(unless they are a cartridge conversion, or Walker/Dragoon model)- these repro guns simply are not worth the $250-$400 price tags the distributors have historically put on them in the past. We are talking cheap, non-heat treated, soft steel guns here- if fired a lot, they immediately have problems and need to be repaired. The loose arbor/frame/barrel/cylinder problems exist with the open top Colt replicas- the topstrap designs appear to be trouble free due to their stronger frame.

the only way to keep that wedge tight in a gun that's actually used for shooting on a regular basis, it weld the arbor to the steel frame, then grind down the weld so it clears the hammer when it drops

I see a lot of Colt BP CB guns- most of them are safe queens- the ones that are actually fired a lot, have to be modded to make them "live"- otherwise they have wedge/barrel/cylinder clearance issues, and loose arbors

Not in my experience. I have a pair of Navy Arms Frontiersmen and Taylor/Uberti 1861 Navies with in excess of 1000 rounds each through them. They're just as tight now as they were when new. Working with a pair of 2nd Gen Colt 1861s now that have around 500 rounds each through them.

gmatov · April 25, 2009, 12:16 AM

Cap,

You are just SO negative I can't decide who you shill for. They are NOT weak pistols. They wer the best that could be had, at one time.

YOU decide that ONLY the top strapped pistols are the only ones to shoot.

The Walker, Model of 1847, only the second revolver made, was the most powerful handgun till the advent of the .357 Magnum. FAR less metalurgically advanced than the cheapest replica, today. They shot and they lasted, at least some of them.

They were probably about on a par with rebar, today, as to the steel used. "Twisted iron", f'r instance.

Just for our edification, whom DO you want to make replicas? Smith or Colt or someone else? I see the prices of revolvers in cartridge guns. I have a bunch.

Expensive! We have a little niche of BP pistols and shooters. I don't know if you think that we should pay 700 bucks for one of them made by the majors.

Cheers,

George

Oquirrh · April 25, 2009, 04:44 PM

Put four more cylinders through1851 at 15 gr. fffg.
Still tight and accuracy 4" at 36' off a rest.
I used corn meal to take up the empty space, but found it shot just as well without the meal and seemed to seat adequately.

gmatov · April 26, 2009, 12:28 AM

Oq,

Are you shooting a .36? 15 grs, squib load, OK. They WILL hold more.

IF the damned thing "blows up", it will likely do little damage to you. I don't think there has been a chain fire that has caused damage TO a pistol.

A 100 years ago, some of the gunslingers had "belly" guns made, with little or no barrel. The ball attained velocities of about 500 FPS. Maybe less. Anyhow, turned away by the greatcoats they wore.

Cap,

Why do you continue denigrating the only source OF these pistols? If we did not have the Italian Reps, we would have none at all. Even Colt with their Second Gen. used Italian made reps to make their own 500 buck guns from.

You continue to belittle them, but if you had no access to them, you would be shooting 500 and up cartridge guns. If that is your aim, go to it.

I like my BP "grenades". If they DO blow up, BFD. Generally, they BLOW UP downstream. Do no damage to the shooter. Arbor pulls out, arbor and barrel go toward the target.

Methink you doth protest too much.

Cheers,

George

Gbro · April 26, 2009, 08:26 AM

Just wondering,
With a loose arbor, and an inexpensive revolver. Has anyone given silver solder a try? It should be much better than locktite, although the next time it might be scrap, so big deal part it out.
Just wondering.

Indian Outlaw · April 26, 2009, 08:36 AM

Why do you continue denigrating the only source OF these pistols? If we did not have the Italian Reps, we would have none at all.

I do not have sufficient discretionary income to purchase an authentic cap & ball revolver. But I am thankful that the Italians are making reasonable facsimiles (some angles, grip shapes, and screw positions might not be 100% authentic). And, while the craftsmanship might not be up to U.S. gunmaking standards, I can hold a gun in my hand, dial up a Western audio book on my MP3 player, and be transported back in time, in my imagination, to escape the scourges of 21st Century humanity.

Well, at least until the battery dies.

madcratebuilder · April 26, 2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Just wondering,
With a loose arbor, and an inexpensive revolver. Has anyone given silver solder a try? It should be much better than locktite, although the next time it might be scrap, so big deal part it out.
Just wondering.

There are some new low temp (about 500*) silver solders on the market. It would be worth a try, and like you said if it does not work your not out much.

I think most frame to arbor problems in the brass frame guns is due to poor fit between the arbor and barrel lug. People drive the wedge in with to much force, pulling the arbor from the frame.

Quote:

Well, at least until the battery dies.

Piper Cub · April 26, 2009, 03:10 PM

Red locktite?

CaptainCrossman · April 26, 2009, 05:41 PM

to GMATOV: no offense intended, there's a method to my madness- reasons I'm stating the information previously:

#1 it's true- none of this is fabricated- here's yet another guy with a loose arbor on a Italian-made Colt repro- these guns literally fall apart under heavy shooting, unless the arbor is welded into the frame.

#2, get the facts out there, the public becomes informed, they start demanding better guns, and the mfrs. will respond with the proper heat treated steels in the guns

#3, if you read my posts and quotes, this same information is being printed in BP C-B books, I'm merely quoting it- or I'm stating my own personal experience- why bury your head in the sand and be in denial ?

#4- the guns are OVERPRICED for something that is not even heat treated, and only case hardened. They're selling on looks, to the uninformed and newbie shooters, rather than using reliability and quality as a selling point

#5 the mfrs. and vendors read these forums- what is discussed here, affects future product offerings. Right now they're probably thinking "crap, they're on to us".

these Italian mfrs. have to get with the program and ante up- we're getting sick of buying soft steel and brass junkers- for $300-$500 we deserve hardened steel guns that last- for cripes sake, I bought a collectible Browning Auto-5 shotgun for only $500 in the local newspaper ads. That's the kind of value I want for my money.

Hawg · April 26, 2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

#2, get the facts out there, the public becomes informed, they start demanding better guns, and the mfrs. will respond with the proper heat treated steels in the guns

If they're so crappy why are there 40 year old Italian replicas that are still going strong after thousands of rounds, yes I have one that's been through more crap than an original war gun ever thought about going through.

Quote:

the guns are OVERPRICED for something that is not even heat treated, and only case hardened.

I think the prices are very reasonable and just what do you think case hardening is? FYI all case hardening including Colt's is in your own words soft as mush on the inside.

Indian Outlaw · April 26, 2009, 07:46 PM

Captain,

Uberti switched from cast frames to forged frames in 2007 for their Remingtons, and so they are interested in improving things. Compared to the 2006 model I purchased (and soon sold), the screws on my 2009 gun are harder, the lines sharper, the action smoother. I removed a small ding from my new gun's backstrap with emery paper last week, and found the steel adequately hard. I've also removed dings from Smith & Wesson's stainless, which was shockingly soft in comparison.

The Uberti cylinder is a bit soft but is fine for BP.

I can't comment on the Colts 'cause I don't buy them. Nor can I comment on Piettas (for the same reason).

April 22, 2009, 09:54 AM	#6
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	To Oquirrh I agree with you but in my case, in order to keep the frame from wobbling I must tighten the arbor past the point at which the wedge will go through. In point of fact it does not take much. I have tried a new arbor unsuccessfully. My problem is in the threads of the frame itself because brass (the frame) is softer than steel (the arbor). In your case, the hardness of the steel of the arbor is likely closer to the hardness of the steel of the frame. I would not be surprised to learn, though, that the effect is the same. To tighten it up you must turn the arbor and that can't happen unless it turns exactly half of one rotation. Others on the forum have had success in using lock-tite type materials. I have not had similar success but my attempts have been limited. Also, others on the forum have far more experience than I do in correcting this casualty. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

April 22, 2009, 11:22 AM	#8
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Well, There ya go My Sheriff's model does not have such a pin. It probably should but it appears not to be part of the design, at least not that I am able to detect. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

April 22, 2009, 12:30 PM	#9
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	Real info Here is an excellent discussion of the issue. The arbor is screwed in, then pinned from the rear. If my pin resetting doesn't work, I may have to replace the arbor, which is a bear because you have to drill out the pin. http://tinyurl.com/d9dujf

April 22, 2009, 12:59 PM	#10
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Yup! Oquirrh, Excellent data. But I think I can understand why resetting the pin does not help (assuming of course that I understand the manner of the failure.) In order for the arbor to have loosened in such a way (partially sheared threads) that would be fixed by turning it further into the frame (which I know is problematic because of wedge slot alignment) the pin would have to have fallen completely out which I am going to assume is very unlikely. In thinking it over, I would propose that if the arbor is still turned into the frame up to its shoulder (I think some arbors have shoulders and some do not) and if you can get the barrel-cylinder-frame to align for proper operation, the potential fix which I will apply to my pistol is the method I spoke of earlier. Notwithstanding Clem and yourself, we are still waiting for someone to respond to your question who has a clue. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

April 22, 2009, 10:52 PM	#11
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	Uberti, and I presume Pietta and others use a 5/16-18 thread on the arbor. That's .312. Major diameter of the arbor is same as Colt at .412, so you have .050 on the radius to make a spacer. In other words, a thin shim .312 ID and .412 OD. 18 threads per inch is .055 thousandths per revolution, so, about 6 1/2 degrees per thousandth. SO, if you get the pin out, and the book says to drill with about an .090 drill, should take out the whole thing, you then tighten the arbor snugly and measure the tilt of the wedge slot, in degrees. Each 6 1/2 degrees will be ABOUT how much you have to shim. Ie, if it turns about 30 degrees off level, you'll need about 5 thou in shim to bring it back snug and wedge slot level. That should also get the pin hole back in line. That, I would tap out to put in a "grub screw", a socket head Allen set screw. Easier to get out the next time you have to repair it. If you don't have machinery to make the shim, you SHOULD be able to have a shim made relatively cheaply. Turn and bore a piece of steel, part it off and grind it to thickness. This might be a temporary fix. If the threads are stretching, deforming, rather than shearing, they will do so again after the repair. Light loads, I don't mean squibs, will delay that. Also, if your arbor bottoms out on your revolver, you may have to refit the end of it to close up the barrel lug, frame fit, since the stretched threads will make the arbor longer in effect. Another idea I was considering is impractical, as the hammer slot is just over 5/16. Insert a barrel nut. Can't drill a hole big enough for that without opening part of the barrel slot. Heli-Coil, you have to drill oversize to tap, and get the thread start to begin just right to time the arbor slot. How to do that, I don't know. Since the companies sell ready made arbors, I assume they use CNC machines to ensure that the threads on both the arbors and the frame holes start at a precise angle. Screw it tight and the wedge slot is dead level. A suggestion if you get the arbor out is to spin a 5/16-18 nut on it and see if the arbor threads are distorted, too. Some brasses and bronzes are as hard as or harder than some steels. If the arbor threads are stretched, replacing the arbor, for about 20 bucks, might be an option. I recommend "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West" to all of you, to learn about them. Long rifle and repeating rifle shooters included, and the early cartridge revolvers. Cheers, George Long winded, I know. Sorry. BTW, I have checked my sources. Frame is Part No. 1 and have yet not found a vendor who will supply one. I think cartridge gun vendors WILL sell you a replacement frame WITH a background check, as the frame is considered THE GUN. It is the part with the SN on it. You have basically bought a GUN if you buy a modern frame on which to build a custom. Barrels and all other parts are available mail order without background check. Last edited by gmatov; April 22, 2009 at 10:58 PM.

April 22, 2009, 07:54 AM	#1
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	Loose arbor, 1851 Navy I've got a STEEL .36 1851 Colt Navy (Pietta). The arbor is slightly wobbly side to side. Can it be retightened? I guess I'm asking how it is attached/pinned, etc. (By the way, nothing to do with the usual wedge issue--that's fine.) Any help appreciated. Thanks.

April 22, 2009, 08:19 AM	#2
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Me too! Oquirrh, I have a brass frame with the same problem. I think it happened as a result of a chain fire incident. I have been trying unsuccessfully to get hold of a steel frame or a good condition brass frame to fix this pistol. Having failed, my plan is to carefully drill down through the frame and arbor with the arbor in place. I will thread the drilled hole and then counterbore the first 1.8th inch of the hole to accept a screw that I have identified for the fix. I will then tighten the screw into the newly made hole. I will establish the position of the arbor by assembling the pistol including the frame, arbor, cylinder, barrel and wedge. All other parts will be removed. I am presently making a jig to hold the pistol for the drilling operation. Before I commence the drilling operation, I will make sure that the assembly is correct by checking the interaction of the barrel, frame and cylinder. I am going to do this operation on a milling machine rather than a drill press because even though my drill press is a very good one, (double overhead cam, four on the floor, dual exhaust...) I am not confident it is solid enough to maintain a perfect location without the bit wandering all over the south forty. This is my plan for this brass frame Sheriff's model. I consider this pistol, as it is, to be worth only what the parts would fetch. So I don't mind tearing it up. Of course I will try not to do that, but I engage this activity knowing that the most important thing I am going to get out of it is not a fixed pistol, but the knowledge I will gain by doing the deed. If you do this to your pistol and it wrecks the pistol, I never told you anything about it. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

April 22, 2009, 09:00 AM	#3
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	Doc, there are all kinds of places you can buy replacement parts. Gentlemen...if you would kindly post your favorite links to replacement part houses.

April 22, 2009, 09:23 AM	#4
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	Tnx, Doc In my case, I don't think the wobble is that big of an issue -- I just think the arbor has shaken loose and needs retightened using whatever method was originally used to assemble it. (Of course, I could be absolutely wrong.) I've shot this rev a lot, but it's STEEL and I seldom used loads over 20 grains of FFFG. I've replaced the paw assembly and the wedge, so far. I like the pistol a lot and would replace significant parts. Again, any guidance appreciated.

April 22, 2009, 09:43 AM	#5
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	To Clem Show me one which will sell you a frame. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

April 22, 2009, 10:03 AM	#7
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	I looked at a diagram for the Pietta 1851 which shows the arbor held in place by a "base pin" at the rear of the frame (under the hammer). I'm guessing the base pin is driven it to hold the arbor in place (?). I'm going to give it a couple taps with a punch to see if it tightens it up. http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/sho...etta+1851+Navy

April 23, 2009, 05:44 AM	#12
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	See Oquirrh?! I knew that eventually we would be able to read a post from someone who knows what he is talking about. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

April 23, 2009, 06:05 AM	#13
CaptainCrossman Junior member Join Date: April 2, 2009 Posts: 381	Yup, if these Italian repros are actually fired a lot, they loosen up rather quickly- #2, this is why I'd have a hard time paying more than $200 for any of them- and preferably even less-(unless they are a cartridge conversion, or Walker/Dragoon model)- these repro guns simply are not worth the $250-$400 price tags the distributors have historically put on them in the past. We are talking cheap, non-heat treated, soft steel guns here- if fired a lot, they immediately have problems and need to be repaired. The loose arbor/frame/barrel/cylinder problems exist with the open top Colt replicas- the topstrap designs appear to be trouble free due to their stronger frame. the only way to keep that wedge tight in a gun that's actually used for shooting on a regular basis, it weld the arbor to the steel frame, then grind down the weld so it clears the hammer when it drops I see a lot of Colt BP CB guns- most of them are safe queens- the ones that are actually fired a lot, have to be modded to make them "live"- otherwise they have wedge/barrel/cylinder clearance issues, and loose arbors Last edited by CaptainCrossman; April 23, 2009 at 06:11 AM.

April 23, 2009, 02:03 PM	#14
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	tnx gmatov and captCrossman Good information, right on target. After tapping the pin back in on my Navy, the arbor remained tight through 2 cylinders at 20 grains FFFG. Didn't have time for more testing. I'm sure it will loosen up again. Until then, I'll fire light loads (15 grains?). Then, decide how to go about a fix or just transfer good parts to another Navy or sell as parts. The brass "Confederate" Colt copies must go to hell in a hurry. Final question: I'm guessing that a decent quality steel Remington '58 is NOT plagued by similar arbor issues (I've owned three and never had a problem). I've got my eye on a 36 cal. Remington so-called "Navy." I have a stainless ROA, but it's just not as fun to shoot as the open top colts -- don't know why.

April 25, 2009, 12:16 AM	#16
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	Cap, You are just SO negative I can't decide who you shill for. They are NOT weak pistols. They wer the best that could be had, at one time. YOU decide that ONLY the top strapped pistols are the only ones to shoot. The Walker, Model of 1847, only the second revolver made, was the most powerful handgun till the advent of the .357 Magnum. FAR less metalurgically advanced than the cheapest replica, today. They shot and they lasted, at least some of them. They were probably about on a par with rebar, today, as to the steel used. "Twisted iron", f'r instance. Just for our edification, whom DO you want to make replicas? Smith or Colt or someone else? I see the prices of revolvers in cartridge guns. I have a bunch. Expensive! We have a little niche of BP pistols and shooters. I don't know if you think that we should pay 700 bucks for one of them made by the majors. Cheers, George

April 25, 2009, 04:44 PM	#17
Oquirrh Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Utah Posts: 188	Update: Put four more cylinders through1851 at 15 gr. fffg. Still tight and accuracy 4" at 36' off a rest. I used corn meal to take up the empty space, but found it shot just as well without the meal and seemed to seat adequately.

April 26, 2009, 12:28 AM	#18
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	Oq, Are you shooting a .36? 15 grs, squib load, OK. They WILL hold more. IF the damned thing "blows up", it will likely do little damage to you. I don't think there has been a chain fire that has caused damage TO a pistol. A 100 years ago, some of the gunslingers had "belly" guns made, with little or no barrel. The ball attained velocities of about 500 FPS. Maybe less. Anyhow, turned away by the greatcoats they wore. Cap, Why do you continue denigrating the only source OF these pistols? If we did not have the Italian Reps, we would have none at all. Even Colt with their Second Gen. used Italian made reps to make their own 500 buck guns from. You continue to belittle them, but if you had no access to them, you would be shooting 500 and up cartridge guns. If that is your aim, go to it. I like my BP "grenades". If they DO blow up, BFD. Generally, they BLOW UP downstream. Do no damage to the shooter. Arbor pulls out, arbor and barrel go toward the target. Methink you doth protest too much. Cheers, George

April 26, 2009, 08:26 AM	#19
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	Just wondering, With a loose arbor, and an inexpensive revolver. Has anyone given silver solder a try? It should be much better than locktite, although the next time it might be scrap, so big deal part it out. Just wondering. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

April 26, 2009, 08:36 AM	#20
Indian Outlaw Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2008 Location: Behind a computer Posts: 100	Why do you continue denigrating the only source OF these pistols? If we did not have the Italian Reps, we would have none at all. I do not have sufficient discretionary income to purchase an authentic cap & ball revolver. But I am thankful that the Italians are making reasonable facsimiles (some angles, grip shapes, and screw positions might not be 100% authentic). And, while the craftsmanship might not be up to U.S. gunmaking standards, I can hold a gun in my hand, dial up a Western audio book on my MP3 player, and be transported back in time, in my imagination, to escape the scourges of 21st Century humanity. Well, at least until the battery dies.

April 26, 2009, 03:10 PM	#22
Piper Cub Junior member Join Date: February 5, 2009 Location: TEXAS Posts: 491	Red locktite?

April 26, 2009, 05:41 PM	#23
CaptainCrossman Junior member Join Date: April 2, 2009 Posts: 381	to GMATOV: no offense intended, there's a method to my madness- reasons I'm stating the information previously: #1 it's true- none of this is fabricated- here's yet another guy with a loose arbor on a Italian-made Colt repro- these guns literally fall apart under heavy shooting, unless the arbor is welded into the frame. #2, get the facts out there, the public becomes informed, they start demanding better guns, and the mfrs. will respond with the proper heat treated steels in the guns #3, if you read my posts and quotes, this same information is being printed in BP C-B books, I'm merely quoting it- or I'm stating my own personal experience- why bury your head in the sand and be in denial ? #4- the guns are OVERPRICED for something that is not even heat treated, and only case hardened. They're selling on looks, to the uninformed and newbie shooters, rather than using reliability and quality as a selling point #5 the mfrs. and vendors read these forums- what is discussed here, affects future product offerings. Right now they're probably thinking "crap, they're on to us". these Italian mfrs. have to get with the program and ante up- we're getting sick of buying soft steel and brass junkers- for $300-$500 we deserve hardened steel guns that last- for cripes sake, I bought a collectible Browning Auto-5 shotgun for only $500 in the local newspaper ads. That's the kind of value I want for my money. Last edited by CaptainCrossman; April 26, 2009 at 05:47 PM.

April 26, 2009, 07:46 PM	#25
Indian Outlaw Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2008 Location: Behind a computer Posts: 100	Captain, Uberti switched from cast frames to forged frames in 2007 for their Remingtons, and so they are interested in improving things. Compared to the 2006 model I purchased (and soon sold), the screws on my 2009 gun are harder, the lines sharper, the action smoother. I removed a small ding from my new gun's backstrap with emery paper last week, and found the steel adequately hard. I've also removed dings from Smith & Wesson's stainless, which was shockingly soft in comparison. The Uberti cylinder is a bit soft but is fine for BP. I can't comment on the Colts 'cause I don't buy them. Nor can I comment on Piettas (for the same reason). Last edited by Indian Outlaw; April 26, 2009 at 07:58 PM.