Bird shot for HD?

[Early C.]

I was in the local Bass Pro the other day looking for a 18-20" barrel for my 870. The sales clerk said all he had was one 20" with rifling. I said I don't want that because it will only be used with 2 3/4" 0 buck and occasionally 00 buck. He said why? I said for HD. He then told me I should be using nothing but #8 shot for home defense.

I told him I live in a house out in the sticks, so overpenetration was not a problem.

He was still trying to convince me as I was walking away.

Am I missing something?

[root]

nope, you're right. personally I'd be comfortable with #4 buck for HD, but that's as far as I'd go.

if I remember right (boxotruth) #8 didn't really penetrate enough for any sort of self defense.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.
-- http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
-- http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

I'm a little surprised at his assertion that #4 isn't acceptable, as it's essential a 30 cal pellet ... I suppose it doesn't necessarily have the same mass/velocity as a 30 cal rifle round??

[Ruger4570]

If you are close enough a load of #8 will rip a huge hole in a bad guy. Most prefer bigger shot sizes such as #4 or #2. The bigger the shot the more distance you can be effective at. I sure wouldn't "want" to use #8 but if it was all that I had available, I certainy would prefer it to no gun and ammo.

[ZeroJunk]

I agree with Ruger. It wouldn't be what I would choose for the purpose, but in the close quarters of a home invasion it would behave more like a solid mass than a bunch of independent shot.

I suspect he would lose interest in being there pretty quickly.

[rem870hunter]

i wonder what would happen if you aim for (dare i type it) the face of the intruder. using fine shot if thats all you had. i don't know about you but i think if the average person got shot in the face i don't think they are going to be in the mood to do anything but scream and cry like a little twit.

a friendly FYI :
#4 buckshot is not .30 cal. its .24 cal. #1 buckshot is .30 cal.
i would use #1 or 0 buckshot for HD puposes. both patterend fine at 18 yards from my 870 12 ga. slug barrel.

[Sgt.Fathead]

Here in NJ where we have some really interesting anti-gun and criminal friendly laws, there's something called 'Possibility of Retreat' in which, should you decide to protect hearth and home with your firearm, some slick anti- prosecutor will try to convince the jury you could have climbed your half asleep self out your bathroom window while the poor/disadvantaged/victim of abuse/whatever meth freak trashed your house on a treasure hunt.

I am a former Marine 0331. Since I do not have the venerable M60E3 for HD, I use a Rem 870 Express Synthetic 8-shot. It is loaded with the following 2-3/4" 12 gauge shells which would cycle in reverse order: Buckhammer slug, 1-18 oz., same, 000 Buck (9 pellet), 00 Buck (12 Pellet), 000, 00, 000. The SpeedFeed III stock holds four more 000 shells, the six round side saddle 00.

I want to live. I want to grow old with my wife, spend time with my family, be productive, finish that damn '55 Pontiac, travel more. I don't think bird shot was made for push-in burglars, drugged crazies, general lowlifes. I've seen what #7 does to targets and clays and birds. I've also seen what 00 and 000 and slugs do to much more solid objects, much more agile and strong creatures.

Call 911 and call the lawyer.

[odsixer]

i don't think they are going to be in the mood to do anything but scream and cry like a little twit.

That cracked me up.

Bird shot is for birds.

[Maser]

Birdshot, buckshot, or a slug.....It don't really matter at close range because it's going to hit its target as a big ball of lead regardless of shot size.

[novaDAK]

for HD, I keep low recoil 1oz. slugs, and "extra power" 00Buck ready

I use #8 for "shotgun plinking" because it is just so cheap when buying 100rd packs

[root]

a friendly FYI :
#4 buckshot is not .30 cal. its .24 cal. #1 buckshot is .30 cal.
i would use #1 or 0 buckshot for HD puposes. both patterend fine at 18 yards from my 870 12 ga. slug barrel.

looked it up, and yep. you're right. thanks

[625]

Birdshot, buckshot, or a slug.....It don't really matter at close range because it's going to hit its target as a big ball of lead regardless of shot size.

Can you share some links that prove your assertion? What you say simply isn't true.

See this thread.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=274993

[ebutler462]

625, you don't need a link. Just get your gun and fire it close range. At room size distances, you can prove it without looking for other people's opinions.

[Tamara]

Maybe if you're assaulted in your walk-in closet it will be a "solid ball of lead".

At 21', however, a cylinder bore shogun is throwing a pattern 6" across or more with most loads.

I agree that a #7 1/2 field load would beat harsh language as a self-defense implement, but my shotgun would only be loaded with it until I could get to Wal Mart to pick up some buckshot or slugs. (Truthfully, I'm not even all that keen on buckshot due to potential underpenetration issues. Hunting evidence has proven that the buckshot-loaded gage is not the thermonuclear death-ray my younger self thought it was.)

[ZeroJunk]

Like this. I did this about 5 minutes ago. Shot from 6 feet with a full choke. 7 1/2 shot. 2X6

Blew a pretty good hole in the ground behind the board.

That crap about a man being shot from 6 feet and only going in 1 inch is just BS


BTW, anybody want a different distance or choke, I'll do it tomorrow.

[Tamara]

Six feet?

Six feet?

Get mugged by fellow phone booth occupants much?

How about backing up to six yards and showing us that pattern.

[ebutler462]

zerojunk, it appears you and I are the only members that have confidence in small shot for HD. Thanks for proving the point. My Nova 20 gauge with #6 stands ready and able to take on any uninvited guests.

You proved it to yourself without having to depend on someone elses guesses. There are too many Rambo wannabes that have read the box of truth and too many books by the experts to realize that small shot is very effective at Hd ranges.

[ZeroJunk]

The six feet came from "when to use birdshot" in post number 2. That's the one I'm calling BS on.

I will give you 6 yards tomorrow. But, that is out of the limits of a home invasion. At least in my house.

[ebutler462]

zerojunk,

Most rooms are 12 feet wide. Two rooms would be 24 feet. Deduct the length of the gun, say 3 feet and the shooter's body, maybe 1 foot.

Fire a couple of patterns at 20 feet for us. I think it will be convincing. It is deadly and will adequately protect your home.

[Tamara]

I'm reasonably confident that I have fired more shotgun shells at silhouette targets and barrier targets inside 7 yards than most folks.

I'm glad you and your Benelli are ready for the Bad Guys. Here's hoping your targets sneak up real close before you have to shoot them.

Fire a couple of patterns at 20 feet for us.

That'd be roughly seven yards. The distance to the first firing point at the indoor range I worked at. He can save his ammo; I know what a shotgun pattern looks like at seven yards. God knows I've seen enough of 'em.

Seven yards is also the distance to the first target stand in my back yard. I've never used birdshot, buckshot, slugs, and turkey loads on sides of beef, water jugs, or sheet metal in the back yard from a Benelli, Mossberg, or Reminton.


Everything I know, I read on the internet...

[ZeroJunk]

He can save his ammo; I know what a shotgun pattern looks like at seven yards.

No. Some of the others may not. Like the blind man, I would rather see it than hear tell of it. Will post tomorrow.

[Tamara]

Cool.

Always best to have your own beliefs based on your own experiences.

(You know, truthfully, it's your shotgun and you can load it with whatever you want, no matter what I or anyone else says. )

[HankB]

The professional hunters I've spoken to in Africa prefer 000 buck when following up wounded cats in thick brush, if they're going to use a shotgun at all.

Forget about lions - they're too big to be relevant - but a leopard will probably average 150 pounds, give or take, making him man-sized. Granted he's faster and stronger than a human, but even the "traditional" load of SSG shot has failed to stop a wounded cat many times. PH's with experience prefer larger sizes - at least 00, and preferably 000, buck.

And that's for a man-sized kitty that's already been wounded.

Now, figure YOUR assailant is a 250 lb, steroid-enhanced biker wearing a leather jacket who just shoved a handful of PCP up his nose . . . do you really want to trust birdshot? Especially if he's a bit farther away?

I don't.

Unless the bad guy is so close that he's going to be singed by muzzle blast, (In my home, a 20-yard shot is possible) I simply wouldn't trust anything less than buckshot - in the larger sizes - for self defense.

[Wuchak]

The old myth about birdshot acting like a slug at close range is just not true. It acts like a bunch of really little lead balls impacting close to each other but not a single one of them has the required energy to get through a person to a vital organ reliably. A slug on the other hand is a big heavy chunk of lead that has incredible energy and will pass right through. Those pellets in the rear of a shot column might penetrate a little deeper than those that impact first because those hitting first could open a hole for them. Those first pellets will not however be impacting with anything remotely close to the energy of the front of the slug.

Here's another way to look at the shot acting like a slug theory. Beach sand is just very fine pieces of rock, mainly quartz . Would anyone seriously claim that there is a point where someone hit with a 1lb piece of quartz thrown at 1000fps would suffer the same wound as someone hit with 1lb of sand thrown at the same speed?

And here's another. You are laying on a bowling alley and someone is going to roll something with all their strength at your head. Would you rather they use a) a 10lb bowling ball or b) 10lbs of marbles assuming that the marbles would remain in a round cluster the size of the bowling ball until they reach you? Does anyone think they will create a similar wound?

[ZeroJunk]

It acts like a bunch of really little lead balls impacting close to each other but not a single one of them has the required energy to get through a person to a vital organ reliably.

Maybe it would be instructive for you to look at the picture of the 2X6 I just blew a hole through.

As I said in my first post, bird shot is not the best choice. But, if you think that the crack head is just going to shake it off, you are reading to much internet logic.

[Early C.]

I can honestly say I wouldn't want to be hit with bridshot at ANY range. That being said, I guess I just see it like this.

Beach sand is just very fine pieces of rock, mainly quartz . Would anyone seriously claim that there is a point where someone hit with a 1lb piece of quartz thrown at 1000fps would suffer the same wound as someone hit with 1lb of sand thrown at the same speed?