manual safety vs no manual safety

[AK103K]

That wouldn't have happened with a good quality leather or kydex holster.

I agree here, and it doesnt matter what gun you carry. The SA's with safeties can actually be a lot scarier in this respect too.

I keep hearing all the pro safety people going on about just how safe they are, and have to wonder just how much they actually really carry one. I carried a 1911 more than any other gun up until about 10 years ago now, and I found my thumb safety off on a regular basis at the end of the day, and no matter what the holster I was using was. I also had a few out of the box with non functioning grip safeties. All of you who carry one did and continually do check them, right?

I see a lot of people putting faith in a mechanical gizmo, and preaching to others that their choice is unsafe because it lacks one. The gizmo has nothing to do with safety, thats the thing between your ears. Everything else is just gingerbread and feel good.

Regardless what you carry, you have to spend the time and effort to be proficient with it. If you feel the need for a safety, then get a gun that has one and practice with it until there is no thought to working it. If the gun you choose doesnt have one, do the same thing.


For the most part, this is all just foolishness, and people arguing over silly stuff. Ive been told by more people, and people who obviously had no experience with the gun I carry (other than having heard scary stories), tell me its unsafe because it doesnt have a manual safety. If you feel that way, rather than just pass on scary stories and your insecurities, why not get one of what scares you, put some quality time in with it, and prove me wrong. I have a pretty good feeling that the with actual experience, things will be a little different afterwards.

I've solved all these questions. I carry a HK P7 PSP. Manual safety yet requires no additional steps to employ, cannot be accidentally engaged or disengaged, is absolutely ambidextrous.
HK got this one right.

If there was one gun that was more meant for someone with some experience, its the P7. While they are great guns, they basically need dedication if you choose to carry them, and switching back and forth is not really a good idea.

While its as safe as anything else, it does have some quirks that need your attention.

Comon sense as they may seem, Ive already personally seen people have their finger on the trigger and squeeze cock the gun. It worked like its supposed to.

If you think the Glock is a problem in "trained" hands, ask the NJSP how they made out when they first started issuing them.

The other big issue is guaranteeing to yourself that the gun is cocked each and every time its in your hand, and stays that way until reholstered or put down.

[danez71]

danez71, I remember that thread. The holster in question was badly worn, and collapsing inward toward the trigger. Improper maintenance of support equipment, as I recall.

I agree. But all that doesnt matter. Its still a good example of how a thumb safety could have prevented that.

A lot of things could have prevented that.... but its still a good example.

Hey... for the 3-4th time... buy what ever you want. Its all good. Just a lot of the reasons and dismisive comments against thumbe safeties dont hold up.



There is only one right answer here folks. The correct one is the one that YOU are proficient with.

[AK103K]

I agree. But all that doesnt matter. Its still a good example of how a thumb safety could have prevented that.

While it "may" help, theres no guarantee that it will. In that case, if it were a 1911 that the safety had come off, and the gun had rode up, like they tend to do with that type holster, the grip safety would have been disengaged when the gun was pushed back down, and the lighter SA trigger would now make things even worse. "Faith" in the gizmo, isnt the answer, and can often be a problem.

A lot of things could have prevented that.... but its still a good example.

Yup, dont be cheap, and buy a proper holster. In cases like those, sometimes no holster at all is actually the better choice.

Just a lot of the reasons and dismisive comments against thumbe safeties dont hold up.

This works both ways, and in either case, unless its defective, the gun isnt the problem.

[threegun]

Ahhh... so you acknowledge that the thumb safety can be a benefit in the EXACT scenario I described (holstering gun/glock leg).

Yes for those lacking in proper gun handling skills it could prevent it and thus be a benefit. BTW I never said it couldn't be a benefit.

Whats sad is that you refuse to believe that it can also be a liability.

[threegun]

Even though you "reacted as trained"..... you still fear the potential downside to the manual safety.

And because of this.... you feel confident enough to determine whats best for everyone.

Yes. I train alot and I still got several symptoms associated with intense stress. I did ok but have enough sense to understand that what I felt could cause those less trained trouble. More stress may have caused me trouble. It definitely sucked.

I feel confident to share my experience with others. I could care less who uses it and who poo poo's it.

[threegun]

Hey... for the 3-4th time... buy what ever you want. Its all good. Just a lot of the reasons and dismisive comments against thumbe safeties dont hold up.

So are you saying that it isn't possible to forget to remove the safety?
So are you saying that it isn't possible to accidentally reapply the safety during intense stress gun handling?

These are viable concerns. Concerns backed by fellow members who have had it happen. Concerns aggrivated by intense stress which is usually unavailable during practice.

No sir I think these concerns are real and hold up quite well with gunfight realities.

[danez71]

So are you saying that it isn't possible to forget to remove the safety?
So are you saying that it isn't possible to accidentally reapply the safety during intense stress gun handling?

....

No sir I think these concerns are real and hold up quite well with gunfight realities.

Almost anything is possible.

The reality is that no has shown an example except me.

Whats sad is that you refuse to believe that it can also be a liability.

I said no such thing and in fact acknowledged numerous posts ago.

Whats funny is that you said they wernt a benefit and then used my example of how it can be.

Whats sad is that you're now resorting to making things up that I said.

[BlueTrain]

I think that attitudes and habits with safeties have changed as the technical characteristics of handguns have changed. Sometimes disadvantages are introduced as well as advantages, in that a larger safety on a 1911-style pistol makes it easier to switch off, easier to switch off accidentally and presumably easier to accidentally switch back to safe. Yet some newer safety features are routinely derided as unsafe, like firing pin safeties.

In the same way, sights are rather better than they used to be, so it is expected that they will be used more than they were in the past.

[threegun]

Whats funny is that you said they wernt a benefit and then used my example of how it can be.

Can you quote were I said this? I never said that they had no benefit. So I'm afraid it is you who is making things up.

[threegun]

The reality is that no has shown an example except me.

Johnksa said that it has happened to him more than once. It has also happened to friends of mine while competitive shooting.

Safeties can be turned on accidentally, it's happened to me at the range more than once, particularly with slide mounted safeties which can occasionally be flipped to the safe position during a quick slide rack.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said no such thing and in fact acknowledged numerous posts ago.

Whats funny is that you said they wernt a benefit and then used my example of how it can be.

Whats sad is that you're now resorting to making things up that I said.

Again I never said that they were useless and if you are gonna talk about the post I quoted HK Jake read what he said "worthless for MOST applications".

BTW "almost anything is possible" is hardly an acknowledgment.

[threegun]

Danez71,

First of all, if you have trouble operating a thumb safety, sell all your guns cause you wont be much better operating the trigger either.

Secondly, You should be concerned with controlling all of you digits on your hand... and not obsess over the control of one digit.

Wow you just refuse to seperate gun handling with extreme stress and without it.

You have a fast smooth draw? Try facing off or racing with someone of equal speed and smoothness. Let me know if you are as fast and smooth. Try competing and let me know if you shoot as good as in practice. Now add the possibility of death to that stress and it quadruples the problems with dexterity and thinking.

Your vast gun fight experience may prove me wrong and if so I stand corrected. However until I have first hand experience that doesn't push me to believe it is a very real concern, I will continue to recommend and advocate guns without an external safety. I will continue to do so using my own personal actual experience rather than others beliefs.

There is only one right answer here folks. The correct one is the one that YOU are proficient with.

There is no right and wrong in your selection only different risks.

[danez71]

Wow you just refuse to seperate gun handling with extreme stress and without it.

Ummmm ... No.

You have a fast smooth draw? Try facing off or racing with someone of equal speed and smoothness. Let me know if you are as fast and smooth. Try competing and let me know if you shoot as good as in practice. Now add the possibility of death to that stress and it quadruples the problems with dexterity and thinking.

Do want want me to web cam it for you too?

Your vast gun fight experience may prove me wrong and if so I stand corrected.

Never said I did... why stick words in my my AGAIN?

However until I have first hand experience that doesn't push me to believe it is a very real concern, I will continue to recommend and advocate guns without an external safety. I will continue to do so using my own personal actual experience rather than others beliefs.

Makes sense.... but I think the operator's preference should be a large consideration and that might not be what you think is right based on your experience. The operators experience may be different than yours.

There is no right and wrong in your selection only different risks.

Which is also pretty much what Ive been saying and seems neutral in terms of one being better than the other. But the quote before that seems to me more of "do it my why because this is my experience".

IMO, those two quotes dont entirely go together. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong.


So I'll just leave this with your quote that I can agree with.

There is no right and wrong in your selection only different risks.

[Garycw]

I just purchased my 2nd pocket auto pistol and the first has a manual safety which I'm comfortable with. Down is off and easy & natural to dissengage. It's easy for me to remember position, down for "put'em down" up for "lock it up" Luckily I've never had to use it. The 738TCP just purchased has no manual safety. I'd like to have one in chamber with this gun, but that fact makes me uncomfortable. Even with the long trigger pull. Anyone ever have one go off accidently?

[threegun]

But the quote before that seems to me more of "do it my why because this is my experience".

Really?? My sharing of a rare experience, which is relevant to this issue, yet goes underestimated by most, myself included, caused you to feel I was forcing it on you?

Look to clearify buy and carry what you want. However I am here to offer my opinion and experiences also.

In my experience external safeties could present a problem and at the worst possible time. I have felt the symptoms described by others who have survived gun fights. They are very real. So real are they that I won't trust my life to a firearm with one ever again unless I have no choice.

I train harder than most to maintain a smooth fast draw and to be able to perform different tactics, reloads, and malf drills. I believe that this should help me perform while under extreme pressure. However since I have the ability to eliminate some concerns I have through my platform selection before an event happens, I have choosen to do so.

Others may feel the need to protect themselves from their own unsafe gun handling. Still others may hope an external safety saves them after a gun takeaway. These are very low on my list.

One thing is undebatable for most of us. Gunfight stress is real and its issues should be addressed for those striving to optimised self defense IMO.

[Nitesites]

Others may feel the need to protect themselves from their own unsafe gun handling

Speaking for myself, this is not the case. It is simply a layer of precaution.

[ranburr]

Short of an actual gunfight, FOF training is really the only way to tell if sweeping the safety off under stress is going to be an issue for you. For some it is, for others it isn't. As for me, I am slower on target with my XDs and Glocks because I find myself trying to swipe off a safety that isn't there. Lots of yrs shooting 1911s, Hi Powers, and CZ 75s.

[BlueTrain]

Apparently safeties make some of you nervous and the rest, the last of a safety makes you nervous. But wait, there's more.

I did a rare thing the other day, I bought a new gun. A Walther P99. I had been obsessing over it for a few months and now it's out of my system and in my holster. Let's talk about it for a moment. It is the "AS" model.

A Walther P99 AS has no safety but it does have a decocker. Other models work differently. The way it works is, you load the chamber and then press the decocker, which is a flush mounted lever on top of the slide, about an inch long and 1/4-inch wide. It must be depressed with some force. When you decock the pistol there is a (relatively) loud snap, louder than snapping the gun when dry firing.

If safeties make you nervous, you should try this decocker. You know the firing pin, officially known as a striker, is heading towards the primer at fifty miles an hour, let's say, then is stopped by the firing pin safety. Unlike hammer fired pistols with decockers, which work in various ways, you can't ease the hammer down as you decock the pistol. Absolute faith is required in this instance. So I can easily understand anyone's reluctance to put their faith in mechanical safeties. It even says that in most manuals.

[danez71]

Really?? My sharing of a rare experience, which is relevant to this issue, yet goes underestimated by most, myself included, caused you to feel I was forcing it on you?

Forcing it on me...? No.

Others may feel the need to protect themselves from their own unsafe gun handling.

I'm not reading that wrong. Thats a little snarky.

You're framing it as to dismiss the value of the thumb safety to no more than that of a 'feel' good feature and something to cover up poor training. Neither of which are anywhere close to 100% true.


Statements like that are derogatory by 1) being dismissive of other benefits of the thumb safety and 2) pesonal towards the person that makes the decision to have one.

Look to clearify buy and carry what you want. However I am here to offer my opinion and experiences also.

And thats great. Seriously. But you dont have to be dismissive and derogatory towards opposing thoughts in the process.

You can make your points with out sling'n mud.

[threegun]

By that thinking, why complicate your escape from a burning car by wearing a seat belt?

Or is it that there isnt any other fine motor skills involved in SD other than flipping off a thumb safety?

Or is it that the thumb is not as smart as the index finger?

Or is it that for some un-made-up-yet reason that a handgun shouldnt have one but that evil black rifle should have one?

Or is it that removing a thumb safety is the answer to a problem that really never existed for those that actually practiced?

Heck... having an an opposable thumb is one of the big differences us humans have over other primates. We've had it for a looooong time and I think we've become pretty good at using it too.

Even though you "reacted as trained"..... you still fear the potential downside to the manual safety.

And because of this.... you feel confident enough to determine whats best for everyone.

No "snarkiness" in your posts right LOL.

You keep saying that I have been contradictory in this thread. I asked you to quote the post that I said external safeties have NO benefit. Further you say that I'm using this contradiction to enhance my position and minimize your position. This of course is ridiculous since you were wrong in your initial premise as I never said they were useless.

I never said its my way or its wrong either but you probably know this already and are just reading your own interpretation into my words. I understand why you felt it necessary as my position was well explained and difficult to rebut. It also tends to agree with the 1000's of well documented cases in which gun fight stress caused reductions in dexterity and a host of other issues including hearing loss, tunnel vision, and the time slowing effect.

My point is simple and based on these facts. How will you react and or perform under these conditions? Unless you have the misfortune to be involved in a gunfight you simply don't know. My situation was as real as it gets without having to fire. I felt the symptoms. It changed my position from basically your thinking to my thinking over night. It was that powerful.

Snarky side says since I can handle a firearm with utter safety sans an external safety, it becomes nothing more than a liability for me as long as my firearm remains with me.

This you disagree with and thats perfectly fine as we can simply agree to disagree.

[Slamfire]

I got one of these because I do not want a M1911 safety to bump off while carrying. I also don’t want a M1911 safety to bump on while shooting. Both of these events have happened to me.

I don’t like M1911 grip safeties that don’t activate if not held properly, something that has not happened to me, but has happened to others.

I don’t like striker fired pistols like Glocks, too many reports of negligent discharges when the light trigger was pulled.

This pistol has a long first pull, or I can thumb the hammer back. A decocker and no safeties.

This operating system is the end of automatic pistol evolution. All other variants since are mutants on the path to extinction.

Well, maybe.

To each his own.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Slamfire

...This operating system is the end of automatic pistol evolution. All other variants since are mutants on the path to extinction...

Except your SIG P220 is pretty much completely useless for some folks like me with fairly small hands and a short trigger reach.

There are many of us who can manage some striker fired pistols (like Kahrs; Glocks, M&Ps or a few others in 9mm or .40 S&W; Browning Hi-Powers, H&K P7s or 1911s (especially with a short trigger fitted)). I favor 1911s and the H&K P7M8.

[threegun]

I don’t like striker fired pistols like Glocks, too many reports of negligent discharges when the light trigger was pulled.

Sounds like the gun worked perfectly. Trigger was pulled gun went bang.

Do you have a habit of pulling the trigger on guns without wanting the gun to fire? If ND's are not the fault of the gun, and they are not hence the term Negligent discharge, then how does the gun bear the blame?

I got one of these because I do not want a M1911 safety to bump off while carrying. I also don’t want a M1911 safety to bump on while shooting. Both of these events have happened to me.

I don’t like M1911 grip safeties that don’t activate if not held properly, something that has not happened to me, but has happened to others.

I quoted this especially for Danez71 LOL.

It reminded me of a grip safety equipped XD that locked on me momentarily as I changed hands and fired swiftly.

[danez71]

I never said its my way or its wrong either but you probably know this already and are just reading your own interpretation into my words.

No, you didnt. Instead you make condescending remarks like this below that are intended to put down others views and prop up yours.

Others may feel the need to protect themselves from their own unsafe gun handling.

Thats not me reading words into yours. Thats me calling out your thinly veiled attempts to justify your opinion as being superior by trying to chop down someone elses gun handling that you have no experience with those that dont share your opinion. Stick to what you know and that isnt others peoples ability.

Do you have a habit of pulling the trigger on guns without wanting the gun to fire?

Oh.. yes... theres another example of the condescending tone and attempt to put down others.

Yep.. that should work to justify your stance with logic and reason.

How about just trying make your case with out the low road tone?

.....then how does the gun bear the blame?

Whoa... talk about reading interpretation into something... Where did he blame the gun? Again, your trying to discredit other to make your arguement look stronger than it is.

He simply stated there where too many reported cases in his opinion. If anything, he supporting me in that I said there are way more DOCUMENTED glock legs than 'safties being actived DURING a GUN FIGHT'. Of which, No. No one has privided examples of it happening DURING an GUN FIGHT as you stressed. The post you mentioned do not support your claim of during a gun fight.



I'm sure you'll try to attack my knowledge or ability to try to strengthen your position and thats fine. Peoople can see it for themselves.

I'm not advocating thumb safties or not. I'm not questioning peoples ability or knowledge while discussing.

You, claim that people should buy what they want but disparage the posters with condescending comments, as noted above, that attempt to discredit the person rather than you justifying your case.

I quoted this especially for Danez71 LOL.
It reminded me of a grip safety equipped XD that locked on me momentarily as I changed hands and fired swiftly.

LOL.... sounds like user error. Gun was working... you switced hands... didnt have a proper grip... gun didnt work.

Yep... great example of how the guns safety covered up your mishadling. The gun requires a proper grip and its design tries to insure the operator or someone else doesnt get hurt when negligent gun handling techniques are used.

[Capt. Charlie]

Time to end this one, and I think the reasons are obvious .

Closed.