Home Defense Weapon

ron73644 · November 2, 2005, 04:16 PM

I bought an extra barrel for my Mossberg 500 field gun. It is an 18 1/2" barrel, and is cylinder bore with no threads. I prefer to have #1 buckshot in it, but since it is so hard to get, seems like it has to be #4 or #00. I wonder why #1, #2, and #3 are so hard to find? I presently have #00 in it because I'm not that sure about #4. What do you experienced guys think? I don't think it will spread much in the house if I had to use it, God forbid.

C Philip · November 2, 2005, 04:26 PM

00 buck is the best all around shotgun defensive load in my opinion. There are several interesting tests with various shotgun loads and spreads here. http://www.theboxotruth.com/

ron73644 · November 2, 2005, 04:33 PM

Thanks for the reply, and I appreciate the link. Yes, this was a VERY enlightening test. I was surprised that the #1 penetrated the same as #4.

dfaugh · November 3, 2005, 12:24 PM

3" 00 buck, S&B in mine..But I don't really have to worry about overpenetration...Because it doesn't have a shot cup, it spreads out very nicely (24" at 40') from my cylinder bore Mossberg...You doo lose capacity with the 3" shells (not a big problem for me, and I have the 7 + 1 model)

ron73644 · November 3, 2005, 12:47 PM

Thanks, dfaugh, for the reply!

Wingbone · November 3, 2005, 03:52 PM

I may be wrong but in a home defense situation, indoors, close range, does shot size really matter? The way I figure at 10 feet ANY size shot will either put down or deter an intruder. Although I always have a handgun handy, I think a shotgun is a much better defensive weapon. Just racking the slide will scare most intruders lol. Please enlighten me on the benifits of larger shot indoors.
Ken

ron73644 · November 3, 2005, 06:40 PM

I know that if I were the intruder any size shot would work--ha. I think that most guys think that you should use something like #00 buck to make sure you put him down for good on the first hit. If he is in your house at night with you and your family in there, he deserves the worst. Be sure it isn't a family member, and be sure no one is in the line of fire behind him in another room. It will penetrate. I used to think #1 buck would be the thing, but I don't know. The thing is, he may be really hopped up on drugs. It's better for him to have the funeral than you.

roy reali · November 3, 2005, 07:27 PM

Some firearms and ammuniton do have benefits. They help trial lawyers keep their Porches running.

XavierBreath · November 3, 2005, 07:35 PM

I like two & 3/4 inch low recoil 00Buck.

sjstill · November 3, 2005, 09:56 PM

I keep Fiocchi LE (low recoil) 1oz slugs in my bedside 870 (I can tell the difference between the full powered & low recoil!!).

I believe Louis Awerbuck recommends 1oz slugs for defensive shotguns. Brenneke, IRRC. No sabots, please

My opinion doesn't really mean diddly, but I'm pretty sure when it comes to defensive shotgun, Louis knows one or two things....

boing · November 3, 2005, 09:59 PM

The internet gives you an unlimited selection of ammo by mail order. A few dollars of shipping expense shouldn't keep you from using the best ammunition for personal defense.

I have a few trial boxes of #1 buck coming from www.midwayusa.com, a great retail resource for shooters.

'75Scout · November 3, 2005, 11:27 PM

I have 2 00 buck and 5 1 oz slugs in the tube. I keep the chamber empty for saftey with people that might monkey around with it while I'm gone. I would bet that Birdshot will work at the ranges for HD. I choose 00 and slug because they hit hard and are easy to find.

varmintgetter · November 3, 2005, 11:35 PM

Since I mainly hunt..the avail ammo I have is #8 shot...but to be honest, just racking the slide will send anyone flying out the door. I have 00 buck..but just too lazy to open up a box

I was reading an article awhile back as the danger of collateral damage. Since I have children, I want to minimize that as much as possible. Many have said #4 is best though..but I'm lucky enough that I have yet used a shotgun to defend myself in a civilian environment..but I did have to use a pistol once and that saved my life!

Texas9000s · November 4, 2005, 12:19 AM

00buck. Birdshot is for birds. As far as penetration into interior walls, your first concern should be for the safety of your family, so just make sure they are behind your line of fire and let the 00 buck penetrate the BG.

roy reali · November 4, 2005, 12:53 AM

Buck shot is for male deer. That won't work either unless your intruder has antlers. You need shotgun shells labeled human shot or something like that.

Texas9000s · November 4, 2005, 01:01 AM

Just so happens, that I have a pair of antlers hanging at the end of the hall, so that the effect is that of whatever is at that same end of the hall appears to have antlers, there for 00 buck will work

roy reali · November 4, 2005, 01:42 AM

Hopefully your buckshot ammo can be fooled by your trickery.

ron73644 · November 4, 2005, 01:53 AM

Ha ha ha-you do have a sense of humor-I guess you are tired of all this. I enjoy it all.

sjstill · November 4, 2005, 09:43 AM

varmintgetter wrote;

"....but to be honest, just racking the slide will send anyone flying out the door."

Do you have personal experience with this happening, or just repeating the mantra??

SeekHer · November 5, 2005, 04:29 AM

If you really want penetration then use 0000 (.380 dia) buckshot instead of 00 (.330 dia) buckshot but if you want to hit your target, give it severe trauma, then you have to lessen the diameter like to maybe #2 (.270 dia) or #4 (.240 dia) buckshot (my #1 favourite load)...why, you ask, because there is 3 to 4 times the number of pellets, allowing three to four times more possibilities of, hitting your target. There is in a one (1) ounce (oz.) load = 6.25 in 000, 8.13 in 00, 12.5 in #2 and 20.3 in #4 of pellets...I think there are 3½ or more likely 4 in 0000 (quad Aught) buck.

There are other pellet sizes available, but you'll probably have trouble finding them, locally; like #1 (.300/10.16 per oz), #F (.220/39 per oz) & my 2nd most favourite load, #TT (.210/46 per oz) and that would be the smallest I would go for home defence. The #F loading is like emptying 3 twenty five round banana or 7 regular rotary clips of .22 ammo all at onceat the target. Which do you think would hit, 9 00 buckshot or 70 #F buckshot, especially at 10, 15 or 20 yards, were most home defence is conducted.

The closer in you are the more spread you need whilst farther out you require a tighter pattern. Most tactical shotguns are bored cylinder (C or cyl) or improved cylinder (IC or Imp Cyl). I prefer a slightly tighter choke, a modified (M or Mod) or an improved modified (IM or Imp Mod) allowing me to have a deeper shooting zone. What really gets me irked is seeing on TV or in the movies, people shooting at a person 100 yards away with a shotgun. At 40 yards you'll get about a 12' spread in your pellets (the width of a room) or about ¾ of a pellet of 00 buckshot per foot with an Imp Cyl choke. At 100 yards that expands to approximately a 30' to 35' (width of a house) spread or about 1 pellet in 3&¾' of space. If they're hit out there, then they have to be the unluckiest people going. Mind you, any size pellet would only irritate you, at best, at that distance. The chance of getting hit with a quad aught pellet might wound you if it hit in a fleshy area. No mass, no velocity, no energy = no wound.

You can mix your own concoctions up by adding #BB (.180 dia/50 per oz) or #2 (.150 dia/124 per oz) birdshot to your #2 or #4 and #F buckshot rounds as filler. Makes for a lovely halo around the massive hole close in...anything smaller just adds an irritant factor to the equation.

I would load my pump with 3 buck rounds, followed by 2 slug rounds and then followed by 1 buck round. This is on an empty chamber but with my last buckshot round out so that I can insert it after racking the slide. This would give me a 3/2/2 configuration. I have a Rossi exposed hammer 12 bore 18½” double barrel coach gun on my side of the bed and a matching 20 bore on my wife’s side. All are equipped with a combination slip on recoil pad (Limbsaver), padded cheek pad and a 8 slot leather loop ammo carrier that I had a saddle maker stitch up for me. All but one are lace up as I had wanted to try one with a Velcro closure…very quick to adjust but very loud. I have a Surefire tactical flashlight mounted below barrels, a leather cobra style sling with 12 extra leather ammo loops on the wide part and a barrel shroud to protect your hands from the heat of the barrels and to hold the flashlight. I’m having another set made up with some very minor design changes to correct some errors I made and will all be fancied up with basket weave carving.

Although I truly dislike slugs for home defence, as there is only one projectile going out to the target...sort of defeats the purpose of the shotgun...I load them towards the end--in case I need the extra range they provide. Don't get me wrong here, I think slugs are fantastic, for hunting, but if I'm defending my home I want spread, coverage and penetration. You blast someone with a load of #9 Skeet (.080 dia/897 per oz) at 5 feet away your going to have a dead body with one big hole in them...the same as what a one ounce slug would do...you go out to 30 yards and if they would be wearing a heavy leather coat, the pellets would probably just bounce off or maybe just penetrate the leather. To penetrate you have to either increase the velocity or the mass or both.

To see the effect of using too light a load of pellets and/or too far away--view here Bird Shot Human Torso

picture link: http://www.bootsandsabers.com/index..../image_med/61/

ron73644 · November 5, 2005, 05:57 PM

I don't know, when I get to thinking about the hell I would go through in the aftermath of a fatal shooting of an intruder, I don't know what I'd do. I would probably just want to shoot myself.

roy reali · November 5, 2005, 06:08 PM

Up in Canada, your laws must be more relaxed about the distance you shoot BG's at. Here in the USA, espically in California, forty yard shots at folks is frowned on. There are circumstances were those shots would be justified, but retaining a good attorney before attempting those shots would be wise.

SeekHer · November 6, 2005, 07:33 AM

Quote:

ron73644 I don't know, when I get to thinking about the hell I would go through in the aftermath of a fatal shooting of an intruder, I don't know what I'd do. I would probably just want to shoot myself.

Then [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] are you reading a thread about home defence shotguns for...if you ain't willing to pull the trigger then don't bother getting the gun...you think some lame ass banger/neo Nazi/wannabe terrorist gives a s**t that you come out and yell "GO AWAY, Mr/Ms BAD PERSON (got to be PC), I GOT A GUN"...if their packing then their blasting and you better be prepared to shoot the D/SOB (That's Daughter/Son OB not dirty).

I agree with a single tap to the head or a double tap to the COM but not with a follow up shot of one to the head--I think that's execution--for civilians or police.

Quote:

roy reali Up in Canada, your laws must be more relaxed about the distance you shoot BG's at. Here in the USA, especially in California, forty yard shots at folks is frowned on. There are circumstances were those shots would be justified, but retaining a good attorney before attempting those shots would be wise.

What I know of US law, which is a fair amount, is that they better be dead because if you just wound him/her then everything that you own and every dollar you make from now on is his/hers--as he/she'll sue your ass, big time.

You probably haven't heard but CDN law is a little more strict than that...handguns are outlawed...dozens of long guns are outlawed...magazine extensions for shotguns are outlawed...semi auto battle rifles are outlawed...I'm not going to go into too much detail.

If I had the shotgun next to my bed (unloaded) and a cop came into my house, I could be arrested on the spot, all my guns could be confiscated because of unsafe storage of a firearm--it wasn't in a gun safe--and I could be subject to incarceration for up to five (5) years...remember that we have to register all of our hand/long guns with the central computer...

Were do I advocate shooting at 40 yards, I said that usual home defence is less than 20 yards, especially at 10, 15 or 20 yards, were most home defence is conducted.(the length of your home). At that distance, with buckshot, you'll likely miss, 12' spread and I don't like slugs, because of only a single projectile, less chance of a hit at any range...what was discussed was a home defence shotgun, cylinder bore, not a rifled barrel slug gun.

If the same lame ass banger is a the back of your property, and is shooting at you, then and only then would you need a slug...they are no longer in your home, you're behind your stout ramparts (walls) and the threat is passed, so why waste the bullets and the chance of criminal prosecution not to mention collateral damage...do you want to start a thread on when you should or should not pull the trigger...in what scenarios is it Kosher...do you wound or kill?

XavierBreath · November 6, 2005, 07:45 AM

Quote:

You probably haven't heard but CDN law is a little more strict than that...handguns are outlawed...dozens of long guns are outlawed...magazine extensions for shotguns are outlawed...semi auto battle rifles are outlawed...I'm not going to go into too much detail.

Really? How about the Norinco 1911? Are they truely outlawed, or just regulated to much for your liking? Just curious.

roy reali · November 6, 2005, 10:25 AM

Some of you believe in a myth. You feel that if the person dies, then you are automatically clear of any wrong doing. If the person live, you will be sent up the proverbial river without a paddle. Do you all really think that you can fool or trick crime labs and investigations? Do you really think that if you plant a weapon on your intruder no one will figure it out? If your police department is run by the like of Barny Fife, well maybe.

Now, if the laws in your neck of the woods do allow for death as an automatic excuse for homicide, please inform me. You live in an area that is much more tolerant of killing others then where I live.

November 3, 2005, 06:40 PM	#7
ron73644 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Posts: 141	Wingbone I know that if I were the intruder any size shot would work--ha. I think that most guys think that you should use something like #00 buck to make sure you put him down for good on the first hit. If he is in your house at night with you and your family in there, he deserves the worst. Be sure it isn't a family member, and be sure no one is in the line of fire behind him in another room. It will penetrate. I used to think #1 buck would be the thing, but I don't know. The thing is, he may be really hopped up on drugs. It's better for him to have the funeral than you.

November 3, 2005, 09:56 PM	#10
sjstill Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2004 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 108	I keep Fiocchi LE (low recoil) 1oz slugs in my bedside 870 (I can tell the difference between the full powered & low recoil!!). I believe Louis Awerbuck recommends 1oz slugs for defensive shotguns. Brenneke, IRRC. No sabots, please My opinion doesn't really mean diddly, but I'm pretty sure when it comes to defensive shotgun, Louis knows one or two things.... __________________ My name is Steve, and I'm a Glockaholic. The primary target is what we call the thoracic triangle. Shots to this area tend to make people FDGB (“fall down go boom”).

November 3, 2005, 11:35 PM	#13
varmintgetter Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 2	birdshot? Since I mainly hunt..the avail ammo I have is #8 shot...but to be honest, just racking the slide will send anyone flying out the door. I have 00 buck..but just too lazy to open up a box I was reading an article awhile back as the danger of collateral damage. Since I have children, I want to minimize that as much as possible. Many have said #4 is best though..but I'm lucky enough that I have yet used a shotgun to defend myself in a civilian environment..but I did have to use a pistol once and that saved my life!

November 4, 2005, 12:53 AM	#15
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Which Ammo? Buck shot is for male deer. That won't work either unless your intruder has antlers. You need shotgun shells labeled human shot or something like that.

November 4, 2005, 01:42 AM	#17
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Good Trick Hopefully your buckshot ammo can be fooled by your trickery.

November 2, 2005, 04:16 PM	#1
ron73644 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Posts: 141	Home Defense Weapon I bought an extra barrel for my Mossberg 500 field gun. It is an 18 1/2" barrel, and is cylinder bore with no threads. I prefer to have #1 buckshot in it, but since it is so hard to get, seems like it has to be #4 or #00. I wonder why #1, #2, and #3 are so hard to find? I presently have #00 in it because I'm not that sure about #4. What do you experienced guys think? I don't think it will spread much in the house if I had to use it, God forbid.

November 2, 2005, 04:26 PM	#2
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	00 buck is the best all around shotgun defensive load in my opinion. There are several interesting tests with various shotgun loads and spreads here. http://www.theboxotruth.com/

November 2, 2005, 04:33 PM	#3
ron73644 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Posts: 141	Thanks for the reply, and I appreciate the link. Yes, this was a VERY enlightening test. I was surprised that the #1 penetrated the same as #4. Last edited by ron73644; November 2, 2005 at 07:45 PM.

November 3, 2005, 12:24 PM	#4
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	I use 3" 00 buck, S&B in mine..But I don't really have to worry about overpenetration...Because it doesn't have a shot cup, it spreads out very nicely (24" at 40') from my cylinder bore Mossberg...You doo lose capacity with the 3" shells (not a big problem for me, and I have the 7 + 1 model) __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."

November 3, 2005, 12:47 PM	#5
ron73644 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Posts: 141	Thanks, dfaugh, for the reply!

November 3, 2005, 03:52 PM	#6
Wingbone Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2005 Posts: 136	I may be wrong but in a home defense situation, indoors, close range, does shot size really matter? The way I figure at 10 feet ANY size shot will either put down or deter an intruder. Although I always have a handgun handy, I think a shotgun is a much better defensive weapon. Just racking the slide will scare most intruders lol. Please enlighten me on the benifits of larger shot indoors. Ken

November 3, 2005, 07:27 PM	#8
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Wingbone Some firearms and ammuniton do have benefits. They help trial lawyers keep their Porches running.

November 3, 2005, 07:35 PM	#9
XavierBreath Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800	I like two & 3/4 inch low recoil 00Buck. __________________ Xavier's Blog

November 3, 2005, 09:59 PM	#11
boing Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1998 Location: WNC Posts: 1,072	The internet gives you an unlimited selection of ammo by mail order. A few dollars of shipping expense shouldn't keep you from using the best ammunition for personal defense. I have a few trial boxes of #1 buck coming from www.midwayusa.com, a great retail resource for shooters.

November 3, 2005, 11:27 PM	#12
'75Scout Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2005 Location: Central Texas Posts: 815	I have 2 00 buck and 5 1 oz slugs in the tube. I keep the chamber empty for saftey with people that might monkey around with it while I'm gone. I would bet that Birdshot will work at the ranges for HD. I choose 00 and slug because they hit hard and are easy to find.

November 4, 2005, 12:19 AM	#14
Texas9000s Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Posts: 29	00buck. Birdshot is for birds. As far as penetration into interior walls, your first concern should be for the safety of your family, so just make sure they are behind your line of fire and let the 00 buck penetrate the BG.

November 4, 2005, 01:01 AM	#16
Texas9000s Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Posts: 29	Just so happens, that I have a pair of antlers hanging at the end of the hall, so that the effect is that of whatever is at that same end of the hall appears to have antlers, there for 00 buck will work

November 4, 2005, 01:53 AM	#18
ron73644 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Posts: 141	To roy reali Ha ha ha-you do have a sense of humor-I guess you are tired of all this. I enjoy it all.

November 4, 2005, 09:43 AM	#19
sjstill Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2004 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 108	varmintgetter wrote; "....but to be honest, just racking the slide will send anyone flying out the door." Do you have personal experience with this happening, or just repeating the mantra?? __________________ My name is Steve, and I'm a Glockaholic. The primary target is what we call the thoracic triangle. Shots to this area tend to make people FDGB (“fall down go boom”).

November 5, 2005, 04:29 AM	#20
SeekHer Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2005 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 295	If you really want penetration then use 0000 (.380 dia) buckshot instead of 00 (.330 dia) buckshot but if you want to hit your target, give it severe trauma, then you have to lessen the diameter like to maybe #2 (.270 dia) or #4 (.240 dia) buckshot (my #1 favourite load)...why, you ask, because there is 3 to 4 times the number of pellets, allowing three to four times more possibilities of, hitting your target. There is in a one (1) ounce (oz.) load = 6.25 in 000, 8.13 in 00, 12.5 in #2 and 20.3 in #4 of pellets...I think there are 3½ or more likely 4 in 0000 (quad Aught) buck. There are other pellet sizes available, but you'll probably have trouble finding them, locally; like #1 (.300/10.16 per oz), #F (.220/39 per oz) & my 2nd most favourite load, #TT (.210/46 per oz) and that would be the smallest I would go for home defence. The #F loading is like emptying 3 twenty five round banana or 7 regular rotary clips of .22 ammo all at onceat the target. Which do you think would hit, 9 00 buckshot or 70 #F buckshot, especially at 10, 15 or 20 yards, were most home defence is conducted. The closer in you are the more spread you need whilst farther out you require a tighter pattern. Most tactical shotguns are bored cylinder (C or cyl) or improved cylinder (IC or Imp Cyl). I prefer a slightly tighter choke, a modified (M or Mod) or an improved modified (IM or Imp Mod) allowing me to have a deeper shooting zone. What really gets me irked is seeing on TV or in the movies, people shooting at a person 100 yards away with a shotgun. At 40 yards you'll get about a 12' spread in your pellets (the width of a room) or about ¾ of a pellet of 00 buckshot per foot with an Imp Cyl choke. At 100 yards that expands to approximately a 30' to 35' (width of a house) spread or about 1 pellet in 3&¾' of space. If they're hit out there, then they have to be the unluckiest people going. Mind you, any size pellet would only irritate you, at best, at that distance. The chance of getting hit with a quad aught pellet might wound you if it hit in a fleshy area. No mass, no velocity, no energy = no wound. You can mix your own concoctions up by adding #BB (.180 dia/50 per oz) or #2 (.150 dia/124 per oz) birdshot to your #2 or #4 and #F buckshot rounds as filler. Makes for a lovely halo around the massive hole close in...anything smaller just adds an irritant factor to the equation. I would load my pump with 3 buck rounds, followed by 2 slug rounds and then followed by 1 buck round. This is on an empty chamber but with my last buckshot round out so that I can insert it after racking the slide. This would give me a 3/2/2 configuration. I have a Rossi exposed hammer 12 bore 18½” double barrel coach gun on my side of the bed and a matching 20 bore on my wife’s side. All are equipped with a combination slip on recoil pad (Limbsaver), padded cheek pad and a 8 slot leather loop ammo carrier that I had a saddle maker stitch up for me. All but one are lace up as I had wanted to try one with a Velcro closure…very quick to adjust but very loud. I have a Surefire tactical flashlight mounted below barrels, a leather cobra style sling with 12 extra leather ammo loops on the wide part and a barrel shroud to protect your hands from the heat of the barrels and to hold the flashlight. I’m having another set made up with some very minor design changes to correct some errors I made and will all be fancied up with basket weave carving. Although I truly dislike slugs for home defence, as there is only one projectile going out to the target...sort of defeats the purpose of the shotgun...I load them towards the end--in case I need the extra range they provide. Don't get me wrong here, I think slugs are fantastic, for hunting, but if I'm defending my home I want spread, coverage and penetration. You blast someone with a load of #9 Skeet (.080 dia/897 per oz) at 5 feet away your going to have a dead body with one big hole in them...the same as what a one ounce slug would do...you go out to 30 yards and if they would be wearing a heavy leather coat, the pellets would probably just bounce off or maybe just penetrate the leather. To penetrate you have to either increase the velocity or the mass or both. To see the effect of using too light a load of pellets and/or too far away--view here Bird Shot Human Torso picture link: http://www.bootsandsabers.com/index..../image_med/61/ __________________ There is a certain type of mentality that thinks if you make certain inanimate objects illegal their criminal misuse will disappear! When the human race dies out, it will be because it was brainwashed to be so totally, completely, utterly safe that it no longer dared to keep on living

November 5, 2005, 05:57 PM	#21
ron73644 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Posts: 141	I don't know, when I get to thinking about the hell I would go through in the aftermath of a fatal shooting of an intruder, I don't know what I'd do. I would probably just want to shoot myself.

November 5, 2005, 06:08 PM	#22
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Canadian Law? Up in Canada, your laws must be more relaxed about the distance you shoot BG's at. Here in the USA, espically in California, forty yard shots at folks is frowned on. There are circumstances were those shots would be justified, but retaining a good attorney before attempting those shots would be wise.

November 6, 2005, 10:25 AM	#25
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	A Big Myth Some of you believe in a myth. You feel that if the person dies, then you are automatically clear of any wrong doing. If the person live, you will be sent up the proverbial river without a paddle. Do you all really think that you can fool or trick crime labs and investigations? Do you really think that if you plant a weapon on your intruder no one will figure it out? If your police department is run by the like of Barny Fife, well maybe. Now, if the laws in your neck of the woods do allow for death as an automatic excuse for homicide, please inform me. You live in an area that is much more tolerant of killing others then where I live.