What other calibers share/use the same basic cartridge case?

Sure Shot Mc Gee · December 29, 2012, 08:21 PM

I've always been interested just where different cartridge cases originated from. (i.e. what other calibers share/use the same basic cartridge case.)
Curious. Is or has there ever been a Parent Cartridge Listing posted here or on the net.?

Example: 38-40--44-40--45-Colt being the parent of the other two. I think?

Another example: 25-20--32-20--? _ < Haven't a clue?

Thank you, for stopping here and reading my thread.

S/S

hounddawg · December 29, 2012, 08:26 PM

.260 Remington is a .308 Winchester that has been necked down. They even use the same go/no go gages

azklmsr · December 29, 2012, 09:07 PM

Howdy

the 45 colt is not the parent to the 38-40 or the 44-40. close, but the 45 has a slightly larger base diameter and a slightly different rim thickness.

i have a few of each and wish they were a little closer. 38-40 and 44-40 brass are rare and a little tough to come by. Thanks to Starline though!

I think the 32-20 and 25-20 are closely related as is the 218 Bee.

seasons greatings!

Kurt

dmazur · December 29, 2012, 09:11 PM

The .243 Winchester is also a necked-down .308 Winchester.

I believe the .270 Winchester and the 25-06 Remington are necked-down .30-06 Springfield.

Going in the other direction, the .35 Whelen and .338-06 A-Square are necked-up .30-06 cases.

I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones that come to mind easily...

okiefarmer · December 29, 2012, 09:14 PM

The 22 CB cap, the 22 short, 22 Long, 22 Long Rifle, and 22 birdshot all fit in the same gun.

Just an FYI in case ya didn't know.

Shotgun693 · December 29, 2012, 09:15 PM

You might want to narrow your search down some. There's so many that this post could run for a year.
Maybe just limit yourself to commercial rounds?

Jimro · December 29, 2012, 09:28 PM

Get a copy of "Cartridges of the World" and enjoy.

Unless you want something specific, then ask here. As it is your topic really is way too much to get around to.

Jimro

solocam72 · December 29, 2012, 09:46 PM

What shotgun693 said!!

Sure Shot Mc Gee · December 29, 2012, 10:36 PM

Quote:

"Cartridges of the World"

Never thought of that one. I'll have to check into that book the next time I visit my local Cabela's.
I was kind of hoping there would be a List compiled on this subject and posted here on the Net. Would be nice to Print one out. If one wants to list his known cartridge case individually. That's OK with me. I'm more than happy to read everyone's threading on this subject. If enough information is compiled here I just may make a Listing myself of everyone's contribution. " Yup I just may do that."

The 22 caliber topic was welcomed. Yes Sir it sure was. (forgot about the bird shot myself) but the individual failed to mention the 22 cal short Blank used in Starting Pistols also.

No doubt we can add too. And perhaps learn a little from each also.

Shotgun693 · December 29, 2012, 10:39 PM

There is or was a book on parent cartridges, I never had a copy but it was available 3 to 5 years ago. Maybe someone will know?

SSA · December 29, 2012, 10:40 PM

30/06 basic brass, necked down and/or shortened is

9.3X62, 35 Whelen, 338/06, 8mm/06, 30/06, 280 Remington, 7X64, 270 Winchester, 6.5/06, 25/06, 9.3X57, 9X57, 8/57, 7X57, 6.5X57, 6MM Remington, 358 Winchester, 338 Federal, 308, 7.62X51, 7MM/08, 260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmore, 243, 300 Savage, 250 Savage, 22/250, 7.93 Kurz, 44 Auto Mag, and 357 Auto Mag

among others.

**Mike Irwin** · December 29, 2012, 11:29 PM

The 7mm/8mm Mauser cartridges were the basis for an enormous number of other cartridges which used the .470 rim/case head diameter.

In the United States, if a cartridge is based either on the .30-06 or the .308, it can trace its lineage straight back to the Mauser cartridges.

A very few, the .257 Roberts comes immediately to mind, is based directly on the 7mm Mauser case.

**Mike Irwin** · December 29, 2012, 11:35 PM

"30/06 basic brass, necked down and/or shortened is 9.3X62"

To clarify that a bit, the 9.3x62 was developed BEFORE the .30-06 round, in 1905, by Bock in Germany.

It was a completely new development designed to give German hunters a home-grown cartridge that would be capable of taking heavy African game.

In some European loadings it approaches 4,000 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

The .270 Winchester is also not based on the .30-06 case. It was developed from the older, longer, .30-03 case, and in fact matches that case's length exactly.

Jimro · December 30, 2012, 12:02 AM

The 9.3x62 and 6.5x55 use the same "slightly larger" case head. It is close enough for Mauser's though.

Jimro

SSA · December 30, 2012, 12:07 AM

30-06 basic brass. As in, 30-06 cylinder brass.
Not meaning that all those were based on the 30-06. Just that they can all be formed from the same straight case.

**Mike Irwin** · December 30, 2012, 12:09 AM

"30-06 basic brass. As in, 30-06 cylinder brass.
Not meaning that all those were based on the 30-06. Just that they can all be formed from the same straight case."

AH! Gotcha.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · December 30, 2012, 12:17 AM

Thanks SSA & Mike. Both your threads were very detailed tonight and offered a large amount of info. Everyone's thread has been appreciated.
So the 270 is based on the 30-03 case. I don't believe I've ever seen that cartridge. Seen allot of old obsolete ones over the years. But not that one.

Shotgun 693: We'll have to see if someone can fill in that blank spot concerning your question? I'm sure someone out here must remember its name. You and I, we'll sit back and see what happens.

SSA · December 30, 2012, 11:14 AM

Then there's the 375 H&H family, including the
300 H&H,
458, 338, 300, 264 Winchester Magnums,
416, 8MM, 7MM, 350, 6.5 Remington Magnums,
375, 340, 300, 7MM, 270, 257 Weatherby Magnums,
358, 308 Norma Magnums,
458 Lott
and others.

oldpapps · December 30, 2012, 03:05 PM

Lets run the list of the biggies:

British Flanged -.577, 303 Brit, .455 Webly, all of the British Express rifles, .44 Bulldog/Russ/spec/mag, 30.30 (all of the Winchester lever rounds), 30.40 Krag, 45-70, 220 Swift....

British (Holland & Holland) Belted cases - All of the Holland & Holland cases, Weatherby cases and our belted Mags.

Mauser - All of the old 11.5s and 11.7s and other, the variations of the 8MM (7.95, 7.65, 8X57, 7MM, more), 30.03, 30.06, 25.06, .243, .45ACP, and on and on.

9MM Lugar/Parabellum - .222 Rem, .223 Rem mag, .223/5.56, .221 Rem, .17 Rem, .300 BlackOut. But hold on, it is just a smaller version of the Mauser head, scale it down.

.32 S&W/.38 S&W family (just size versions of the British Flanged)

And .38 Long Colt/S&W Special (again the British Flanged) .22Jet

About the only real new head of late (in general uses) is the 10MM/.40S&W and I see it only as a size change from a conventional existing casing (Mauser again).

No they are not exact (anymore) and will not all exchange. But they have common case and more importantly head dimension back grounds. It comes down to re-inventing the wheel or in this case (pun intended) shell casing. If an existing case/head will work, use it.

Three major types: British Flanged (rimmed), Belted, and rimless. That just about covers them, some a little larger/smaller/thicker/thinner.

These are my explanations and may or may not be based in facts. Yes, I know I missed the great XXX casing and many others, but you get the idea.

Enjoy,

OSOK

FrankenMauser · December 30, 2012, 05:48 PM

Oh, come on, guys.
Everyone always ignores the great-grand-daddy of so many 'Merican cartridges.

.30-03 (inspired by the Mausers) is the parent for .30-06, .270 Win, .280 Rem, and the Whelens (.35, .375, .400). - And none of the latter three are based on the .30-06. That's why they require a .30-03 neck length for proper forming.

(Edit: Now I see that Mike brought up .270 Win being based on .30-03, a bit earlier.)

The .280 Remington could be argued to be based on the .30-06, if you include elongating a case to be 'based on' one - i.e. .308 Win being 'based on' .300 Savage by being a stretched and modified version of it, or .30-03 being 'based on' 7x57mm by being an elongated and modified version of it.
But, as far as I'm concerned - if you add length, you're creating a new cartridge.

If you can't take the 'parent' and form the 'child' directly from it... it ain't part of the family.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · December 31, 2012, 06:29 PM

Hey pretty good going fellers. Great listing so far. Pretty much got those in- production 20th century cartridges covered. What about some of those old ones. I'll try to contribute: 219 Zipper-- 22 H.P. Savage--25-35--30-30--32 Special-- 32-40--375-Win--38-55 after this last entry >38-55. I don't have any idea if there are any others using that same case? _

Strange haven't seen the 50-70 and on down mentioned yet. _

Jimro · January 1, 2013, 01:07 PM

Nor have I seen the rebated rim design mentioned.

Jimro

testuser · January 1, 2013, 01:15 PM

Many of the popular revolver cartridges started a long time ago...

.44 American (1869) to .44 Russian to .44 special to .44 magnum
.38 Short Colt to .38 Long Colt to .38 special to .357 magnum

m&p45acp10+1 · January 1, 2013, 02:11 PM

7.62x61 S&H can be formed from necking up .300 H&H, it was based on a belted French machine gun round that Phil Sharpe picked up off of the ground in France. It is helpful seeing as how Norma stopped making brass for it long before I started reloading.

.221 Rem Fireball can be formed from .223 Rem brass, or .222 Rem brass. A lot of people were using the .221 Rem Fireball brass to form 300 ACC Black Out due to it being thinner, and easier than using .223 rem brass, and having to turn the necks.

.357 Wildey Mag was made from necking down a .475 Wildey Mag.

.35 Winchester Center Fire (WCF) can be made with .38 Special. A small amount of turning of the rim is needed. Then lube it, and run though the standard sizer.

Bart B. · January 1, 2013, 03:33 PM

Mike Irwin, the .270 Winchester (or 6.9x64mm) was developed by Winchester Repeating Arms Company in 1923 and unveiled in 1925 as a chambering for their bolt-action Model 54. 1923's twenty years later than 1903, so I doubt that old military cartridge was used as the basis for the .270.

Many cartridges "reformed" from parent ones will have a different case length than their parent case does. .243 and .270 Win are just a couple. Especially if the parent case is just sized down in the neck, it'll often be a few thousandths longer.

December 29, 2012, 08:21 PM	#1
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	What other calibers share/use the same basic cartridge case? I've always been interested just where different cartridge cases originated from. (i.e. what other calibers share/use the same basic cartridge case.) Curious. Is or has there ever been a Parent Cartridge Listing posted here or on the net.? Example: 38-40--44-40--45-Colt being the parent of the other two. I think? Another example: 25-20--32-20--? _ < Haven't a clue? Thank you, for stopping here and reading my thread. S/S

December 29, 2012, 08:26 PM	#2
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	.260 Remington is a .308 Winchester that has been necked down. They even use the same go/no go gages __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

December 29, 2012, 09:11 PM	#4
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	The .243 Winchester is also a necked-down .308 Winchester. I believe the .270 Winchester and the 25-06 Remington are necked-down .30-06 Springfield. Going in the other direction, the .35 Whelen and .338-06 A-Square are necked-up .30-06 cases. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones that come to mind easily... __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

December 29, 2012, 09:28 PM	#7
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Get a copy of "Cartridges of the World" and enjoy. Unless you want something specific, then ask here. As it is your topic really is way too much to get around to. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 29, 2012, 11:29 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	The 7mm/8mm Mauser cartridges were the basis for an enormous number of other cartridges which used the .470 rim/case head diameter. In the United States, if a cartridge is based either on the .30-06 or the .308, it can trace its lineage straight back to the Mauser cartridges. A very few, the .257 Roberts comes immediately to mind, is based directly on the 7mm Mauser case. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 29, 2012, 09:07 PM	#3
azklmsr Member Join Date: December 17, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 32	Howdy the 45 colt is not the parent to the 38-40 or the 44-40. close, but the 45 has a slightly larger base diameter and a slightly different rim thickness. i have a few of each and wish they were a little closer. 38-40 and 44-40 brass are rare and a little tough to come by. Thanks to Starline though! I think the 32-20 and 25-20 are closely related as is the 218 Bee. seasons greatings! Kurt

December 29, 2012, 09:14 PM	#5
okiefarmer Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 381	The 22 CB cap, the 22 short, 22 Long, 22 Long Rifle, and 22 birdshot all fit in the same gun. Just an FYI in case ya didn't know.

December 29, 2012, 09:15 PM	#6
Shotgun693 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2011 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 959	You might want to narrow your search down some. There's so many that this post could run for a year. Maybe just limit yourself to commercial rounds?

December 29, 2012, 09:46 PM	#8
solocam72 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2012 Location: Great Northwest Posts: 222	What shotgun693 said!!

December 29, 2012, 10:39 PM	#10
Shotgun693 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2011 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 959	There is or was a book on parent cartridges, I never had a copy but it was available 3 to 5 years ago. Maybe someone will know?

December 29, 2012, 10:40 PM	#11
SSA Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Posts: 641	30/06 basic brass, necked down and/or shortened is 9.3X62, 35 Whelen, 338/06, 8mm/06, 30/06, 280 Remington, 7X64, 270 Winchester, 6.5/06, 25/06, 9.3X57, 9X57, 8/57, 7X57, 6.5X57, 6MM Remington, 358 Winchester, 338 Federal, 308, 7.62X51, 7MM/08, 260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmore, 243, 300 Savage, 250 Savage, 22/250, 7.93 Kurz, 44 Auto Mag, and 357 Auto Mag among others.

December 29, 2012, 11:35 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	"30/06 basic brass, necked down and/or shortened is 9.3X62" To clarify that a bit, the 9.3x62 was developed BEFORE the .30-06 round, in 1905, by Bock in Germany. It was a completely new development designed to give German hunters a home-grown cartridge that would be capable of taking heavy African game. In some European loadings it approaches 4,000 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. The .270 Winchester is also not based on the .30-06 case. It was developed from the older, longer, .30-03 case, and in fact matches that case's length exactly. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 30, 2012, 12:02 AM	#14
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	The 9.3x62 and 6.5x55 use the same "slightly larger" case head. It is close enough for Mauser's though. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 30, 2012, 12:07 AM	#15
SSA Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Posts: 641	30-06 basic brass. As in, 30-06 cylinder brass. Not meaning that all those were based on the 30-06. Just that they can all be formed from the same straight case.

December 30, 2012, 12:09 AM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	"30-06 basic brass. As in, 30-06 cylinder brass. Not meaning that all those were based on the 30-06. Just that they can all be formed from the same straight case." AH! Gotcha. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 30, 2012, 12:17 AM	#17
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Thanks SSA & Mike. Both your threads were very detailed tonight and offered a large amount of info. Everyone's thread has been appreciated. So the 270 is based on the 30-03 case. I don't believe I've ever seen that cartridge. Seen allot of old obsolete ones over the years. But not that one. Shotgun 693: We'll have to see if someone can fill in that blank spot concerning your question? I'm sure someone out here must remember its name. You and I, we'll sit back and see what happens.

December 30, 2012, 11:14 AM	#18
SSA Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Posts: 641	Then there's the 375 H&H family, including the 300 H&H, 458, 338, 300, 264 Winchester Magnums, 416, 8MM, 7MM, 350, 6.5 Remington Magnums, 375, 340, 300, 7MM, 270, 257 Weatherby Magnums, 358, 308 Norma Magnums, 458 Lott and others.

December 30, 2012, 03:05 PM	#19
oldpapps Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2011 Location: Middle America Posts: 518	Lets run the list of the biggies: British Flanged -.577, 303 Brit, .455 Webly, all of the British Express rifles, .44 Bulldog/Russ/spec/mag, 30.30 (all of the Winchester lever rounds), 30.40 Krag, 45-70, 220 Swift.... British (Holland & Holland) Belted cases - All of the Holland & Holland cases, Weatherby cases and our belted Mags. Mauser - All of the old 11.5s and 11.7s and other, the variations of the 8MM (7.95, 7.65, 8X57, 7MM, more), 30.03, 30.06, 25.06, .243, .45ACP, and on and on. 9MM Lugar/Parabellum - .222 Rem, .223 Rem mag, .223/5.56, .221 Rem, .17 Rem, .300 BlackOut. But hold on, it is just a smaller version of the Mauser head, scale it down. .32 S&W/.38 S&W family (just size versions of the British Flanged) And .38 Long Colt/S&W Special (again the British Flanged) .22Jet About the only real new head of late (in general uses) is the 10MM/.40S&W and I see it only as a size change from a conventional existing casing (Mauser again). No they are not exact (anymore) and will not all exchange. But they have common case and more importantly head dimension back grounds. It comes down to re-inventing the wheel or in this case (pun intended) shell casing. If an existing case/head will work, use it. Three major types: British Flanged (rimmed), Belted, and rimless. That just about covers them, some a little larger/smaller/thicker/thinner. These are my explanations and may or may not be based in facts. Yes, I know I missed the great XXX casing and many others, but you get the idea. Enjoy, OSOK

December 30, 2012, 05:48 PM	#20
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Oh, come on, guys. Everyone always ignores the great-grand-daddy of so many 'Merican cartridges. .30-03 (inspired by the Mausers) is the parent for .30-06, .270 Win, .280 Rem, and the Whelens (.35, .375, .400). - And none of the latter three are based on the .30-06. That's why they require a .30-03 neck length for proper forming. (Edit: Now I see that Mike brought up .270 Win being based on .30-03, a bit earlier.) The .280 Remington could be argued to be based on the .30-06, if you include elongating a case to be 'based on' one - i.e. .308 Win being 'based on' .300 Savage by being a stretched and modified version of it, or .30-03 being 'based on' 7x57mm by being an elongated and modified version of it. But, as far as I'm concerned - if you add length, you're creating a new cartridge. If you can't take the 'parent' and form the 'child' directly from it... it ain't part of the family. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

December 31, 2012, 06:29 PM	#21
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Hey pretty good going fellers. Great listing so far. Pretty much got those in- production 20th century cartridges covered. What about some of those old ones. I'll try to contribute: 219 Zipper-- 22 H.P. Savage--25-35--30-30--32 Special-- 32-40--375-Win--38-55 after this last entry >38-55. I don't have any idea if there are any others using that same case? _ Strange haven't seen the 50-70 and on down mentioned yet. _

January 1, 2013, 01:07 PM	#22
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Nor have I seen the rebated rim design mentioned. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

January 1, 2013, 01:15 PM	#23
testuser Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Posts: 495	Many of the popular revolver cartridges started a long time ago... .44 American (1869) to .44 Russian to .44 special to .44 magnum .38 Short Colt to .38 Long Colt to .38 special to .357 magnum

January 1, 2013, 02:11 PM	#24
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	7.62x61 S&H can be formed from necking up .300 H&H, it was based on a belted French machine gun round that Phil Sharpe picked up off of the ground in France. It is helpful seeing as how Norma stopped making brass for it long before I started reloading. .221 Rem Fireball can be formed from .223 Rem brass, or .222 Rem brass. A lot of people were using the .221 Rem Fireball brass to form 300 ACC Black Out due to it being thinner, and easier than using .223 rem brass, and having to turn the necks. .357 Wildey Mag was made from necking down a .475 Wildey Mag. .35 Winchester Center Fire (WCF) can be made with .38 Special. A small amount of turning of the rim is needed. Then lube it, and run though the standard sizer. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you. Last edited by m&p45acp10+1; January 1, 2013 at 02:17 PM.

January 1, 2013, 03:33 PM	#25
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Mike Irwin, the .270 Winchester (or 6.9x64mm) was developed by Winchester Repeating Arms Company in 1923 and unveiled in 1925 as a chambering for their bolt-action Model 54. 1923's twenty years later than 1903, so I doubt that old military cartridge was used as the basis for the .270. Many cartridges "reformed" from parent ones will have a different case length than their parent case does. .243 and .270 Win are just a couple. Especially if the parent case is just sized down in the neck, it'll often be a few thousandths longer.