Mag extension legality/warranty

KBobAries · April 16, 2006, 03:26 AM

Hi everyone,

I've spent several hours reading this forum as part of research into purchasing my first shotgun. It's a great place to surf and lots of great information but it often seems that the more I read the more questions I have.

My FIRST question is which manufacturers' shotguns can be fitted legally with an extension? I've read that it depends on the number of imported parts but am not familiar with them to know if some guns are complete imports, assembled here from foreign parts, assembled abroad from U.S. parts, or are made here.

My SECOND question is which manufacturers will void the warranty if an extension is added? I've read so many threads that I've become lost but I think that Remington will do so if the dimples are removed on the 870s. Any others?

Thanks in advance,

Dan

expeditionx · April 16, 2006, 04:41 AM

To avoid magazine extension legalities, buy domestic made like Remington, Mossberg, Ithaca, or Winchester. They can legally have extensions without a shadow of doubt.

Any import related legality questions can be addressed to:

Chief of the ATF Firearms Technology Branch
Sterling Nixon

Bureau of ATF
Firearms Technology Branch
244 Needy Rd.
Martinsburg, WV
25401

Someone on another board said he spoke to him in person at the shot show in Las Vegas. His questioned him specifically about this issue.
Chief Nixon stated that as long as the imported shotgun has 10 or less foreign parts (refering to the 922 r list of control parts ) then magazine extensions or even detachable magazines can exceed 5 rounds without limit. Its near impossible to get U.S. made compliant parts for alot of imported shotguns. The Saiga-12 is the exception.
Most ATF agents don't know much about import weapon law because
they do not have to deal with it often. The ATF Tech Branch is the main place to write with legality questions.

KBobAries · April 16, 2006, 10:35 AM

Thanks Exp,

I suppose I'll have to write a letter. Strikes me as rather odd that extensions would be even made in that instance. Think I might have to redo my "short" list.

Dan

JohnBrowning · April 17, 2006, 02:03 PM

While I do not under any circumstance in the US advocate breaking the law, I do not actually know of an example of someone being prosecuted for illegaly putting together an imported "non-sporting" gun. All of the people who buy SKS's and slap unreliable 30 round mags in them are a good indication. Remember, cops don't give a damn about most silly little gun laws like this, and neither do ATF Agents. You really just need to get on their bad side to get in trouble for something like this. That said, I still wouldn't risk it, and if you wanted an import shotgun with all the evil goodies made legal with American compliance parts, Hans Vang could probably help you out.

By the way, you mentioned Remington 870's and the dimples to prevent mag extensions. If you go for an 870, which I would and did, get an older one. The older ones were made better and had no dimples. The bottom line is, American scatterguns don't have the "non sporting" issue, and parts and service are far easier to get anyway.

KBobAries · April 17, 2006, 10:10 PM

John,

Thanks for the response. If I'm lucky, I'll spend the rest of my life without ever having to use a gun in self-defense. However, I'm trying to decide on a home defense gun and want the extension option. Thus, I'm trying to find out which guns are considered imports and avoid them. Aren't Brownings made in China yet still considered a domestic gun? The whole situation is rather confusing.

Dan

RsqVet · April 17, 2006, 10:18 PM

If you are worried about dimples on a reminton just find a dealer to buy a police model from a dealer who can get them in (you can view them at www.remintonle.com, there is no law against them being sold to you unless it's a 14 inch barrel) they are without the dimples and most with the mag extenshion already in place... plus they have a few diffirent / better parts --- though the warranty on a 870 likely a joke, they almost never break and not in a year or two if ever.
.

KBobAries · April 17, 2006, 11:04 PM

Rsq,

Can other barrels be purchased if one wanted the gun to double duty as an occasional clays gun? How does the police model compare with the Wingmaster in terms of quality?

Thanks,

Dan

RsqVet · April 17, 2006, 11:14 PM

Yes, I believe so, word of caution there as I'm not much of a shotgun man, more pistols and rifles however in general yes there are a slew of barrels offered for the 870 and they should with certain exceptions interchange, the 870 P series and the wingmaster guns are the higher end of the remmington pump gun spectrum, the somewhat de-conteneted value line guns sold in wal-mart are the other end of the spectrum priced to be compeditive with other makers but still a 870, I know in regard to the P series they use alunimum instead of plastic (polymer) for the trigger guard / trigger parts frame and also lack the lockable cross bolt safety found on consumer guns --- there may be other differences as well.

I know there is a thead around here somewhere by someone way more in the know than myself that describes to the last detail what the diffferneces are between the police sereis guns and the rest... search for 870 police and you will liekly find it.

April 16, 2006, 03:26 AM	#1
KBobAries Junior Member Join Date: April 10, 2006 Posts: 10	Mag extension legality/warranty Hi everyone, I've spent several hours reading this forum as part of research into purchasing my first shotgun. It's a great place to surf and lots of great information but it often seems that the more I read the more questions I have. My FIRST question is which manufacturers' shotguns can be fitted legally with an extension? I've read that it depends on the number of imported parts but am not familiar with them to know if some guns are complete imports, assembled here from foreign parts, assembled abroad from U.S. parts, or are made here. My SECOND question is which manufacturers will void the warranty if an extension is added? I've read so many threads that I've become lost but I think that Remington will do so if the dimples are removed on the 870s. Any others? Thanks in advance, Dan Last edited by KBobAries; April 16, 2006 at 03:31 AM. Reason: typos/verbage

April 17, 2006, 10:10 PM	#5
KBobAries Junior Member Join Date: April 10, 2006 Posts: 10	I won't risk it either. John, Thanks for the response. If I'm lucky, I'll spend the rest of my life without ever having to use a gun in self-defense. However, I'm trying to decide on a home defense gun and want the extension option. Thus, I'm trying to find out which guns are considered imports and avoid them. Aren't Brownings made in China yet still considered a domestic gun? The whole situation is rather confusing. Dan

April 17, 2006, 11:04 PM	#7
KBobAries Junior Member Join Date: April 10, 2006 Posts: 10	870p Rsq, Can other barrels be purchased if one wanted the gun to double duty as an occasional clays gun? How does the police model compare with the Wingmaster in terms of quality? Thanks, Dan

April 16, 2006, 04:41 AM	#2
expeditionx Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2004 Posts: 330	To avoid magazine extension legalities, buy domestic made like Remington, Mossberg, Ithaca, or Winchester. They can legally have extensions without a shadow of doubt. Any import related legality questions can be addressed to: Chief of the ATF Firearms Technology Branch Sterling Nixon Bureau of ATF Firearms Technology Branch 244 Needy Rd. Martinsburg, WV 25401 Someone on another board said he spoke to him in person at the shot show in Las Vegas. His questioned him specifically about this issue. Chief Nixon stated that as long as the imported shotgun has 10 or less foreign parts (refering to the 922 r list of control parts ) then magazine extensions or even detachable magazines can exceed 5 rounds without limit. Its near impossible to get U.S. made compliant parts for alot of imported shotguns. The Saiga-12 is the exception. Most ATF agents don't know much about import weapon law because they do not have to deal with it often. The ATF Tech Branch is the main place to write with legality questions.

April 16, 2006, 10:35 AM	#3
KBobAries Junior Member Join Date: April 10, 2006 Posts: 10	Thanks Exp, I suppose I'll have to write a letter. Strikes me as rather odd that extensions would be even made in that instance. Think I might have to redo my "short" list. Dan

April 17, 2006, 02:03 PM	#4
JohnBrowning Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2005 Posts: 140	While I do not under any circumstance in the US advocate breaking the law, I do not actually know of an example of someone being prosecuted for illegaly putting together an imported "non-sporting" gun. All of the people who buy SKS's and slap unreliable 30 round mags in them are a good indication. Remember, cops don't give a damn about most silly little gun laws like this, and neither do ATF Agents. You really just need to get on their bad side to get in trouble for something like this. That said, I still wouldn't risk it, and if you wanted an import shotgun with all the evil goodies made legal with American compliance parts, Hans Vang could probably help you out. By the way, you mentioned Remington 870's and the dimples to prevent mag extensions. If you go for an 870, which I would and did, get an older one. The older ones were made better and had no dimples. The bottom line is, American scatterguns don't have the "non sporting" issue, and parts and service are far easier to get anyway.

April 17, 2006, 10:18 PM	#6
RsqVet Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Posts: 2,474	If you are worried about dimples on a reminton just find a dealer to buy a police model from a dealer who can get them in (you can view them at www.remintonle.com, there is no law against them being sold to you unless it's a 14 inch barrel) they are without the dimples and most with the mag extenshion already in place... plus they have a few diffirent / better parts --- though the warranty on a 870 likely a joke, they almost never break and not in a year or two if ever. .

April 17, 2006, 11:14 PM	#8
RsqVet Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Posts: 2,474	Yes, I believe so, word of caution there as I'm not much of a shotgun man, more pistols and rifles however in general yes there are a slew of barrels offered for the 870 and they should with certain exceptions interchange, the 870 P series and the wingmaster guns are the higher end of the remmington pump gun spectrum, the somewhat de-conteneted value line guns sold in wal-mart are the other end of the spectrum priced to be compeditive with other makers but still a 870, I know in regard to the P series they use alunimum instead of plastic (polymer) for the trigger guard / trigger parts frame and also lack the lockable cross bolt safety found on consumer guns --- there may be other differences as well. I know there is a thead around here somewhere by someone way more in the know than myself that describes to the last detail what the diffferneces are between the police sereis guns and the rest... search for 870 police and you will liekly find it.