June 16, 2018, 05:55 AM | #26 |
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The Israeli armed people in the Rome Terrorist attack, (Teens in Burkas) with concealed AKs. Were armed with Beretta .380s, the ban on Military calibres caused that choice, I often wondered why they never went to .38 Super?
Not a military calibre? The big loss of life, caused by a Police Officer freezing on the full auto trigger, on his Beretta sub gun! I recollect. When the search for the Security Guys came up empty? The El Al plane that left after this event Empty? Might have been a clue! |
June 16, 2018, 06:02 AM | #27 |
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10mm > 38 Super is why.
In 1911 platform 10mm is better. Better defined as bigger, more powerful.
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June 16, 2018, 07:58 AM | #28 |
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I've got one too...a .38 Super in a Colt Combat Commander...also fits with perfect reliability, my Ruger CMD. It's a great caliber, originally hindered, accuracy wise, by its head spacing off the small semi-rim, but that's been corrected, as far as I know, in guns produced in the last 20 years.
Mine is more accurate in .38 than the original .45 ACP barrels that were supplied with the guns. In the early 80's I found a Series 70 slide and barrel in .38 Super through "Shotgun News" (also one in 9mm) and bought it for less than $200. They were a drop in fit on my .45 Combat Commander...but I did have to change out the ejector to get reliability...no other mods other than magazines were necessary. As to the cartridge itself, it's a handloader's proposition if it's true potential is wanted. The original advertised a 130 gr. FMJ at 1300 fps, if memory serves...and was a great improvement over the 9mm Luger, short of surplus submachine gun ammunition. Nowadays, the Super's not loaded anywhere near those stats by the major suppliers, but you may find uploaded stuff from Buffalo or one of the others. You can get to 1350 fps with 125 gr. JHPs from a 5" bbl. according to Sierra's Infinity Reloading Manual, with Clays, Power Pistol, WSF or AA #7, but I don't push the envelope to that extent. I have seen 1250 fps, however, for a 5-round average, wink out on the chrono screen from my 4.25" bbl. Ejection was just short of spectacular...10-15', stacked nicely in a pile, but too much for me, as I'd found better accuracy down around 1200 fps with consequent less wear on the gun and shooter. BTW, good ear protection is mandatory if you don't want to be questioning your better half with a, "wasssat" all evening long. Lastly, I do like nickle plated cases in this caliber, which are a hellofa lot easier to find in the bush-hogged meadow grass where I do the bulk of my shooting. HTH's and congrats on a nice addition to your arsenal. Rod
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June 16, 2018, 08:21 AM | #29 |
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I'd argue the .38 Super was never truly mainstream at any point in it's life. In a 1911, it's overshadowed by the ubiquitous .45 ACP, and to an extent the muscle of the 10mm Auto. To CDW4ME's point, "bigger is better" permeates so much of people's thinking. I think people see the .38 Super on a 1911 and feel the same way they do about a V-6 Mustang; "Oh, cute, where's the rest of it?"
That said, I have a stainless Colt Competition in .38 Super that I just absolutely LOVE to shoot. It's very mild in recoil, flat shooting and definitely gets people's attention at the range. Mine is fairly accurate and not at all picky about magazines. Any 9 or 10 round magazine I've found feeds 100%, though I have one magazine that doesn't like to lock the slide back on empty. (And it's been a bit fussy about what bullet profiles will feed 100%.) Ammo is far less common than for the .45 ACP or 10mm Auto, no question. Magazine capacity and ammo choices are limited compared to 9mm Luger and .40 S&W. It's out there, just not sitting on every ammo counter shelf. But if you just like the cartridge, just want something different, and understand what you're getting going into it, it's a lot of fun. I look at my .38 Super as a 9x19mm +P that can handle 130-147 grain bullets with ease. (Yet after all of that, I also have a 1911 in .45 ACP due to the much bigger selection of JHP ammo, and having an affinity for big-bore handgun rounds. My particular .45 has even proven to be less fussy about what bullet shapes it will feed.)
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June 16, 2018, 01:11 PM | #30 |
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The reason that it never took off is simple, it is all due to the 9mm. world wide, people have used the 9mm. We drank the koolade.
The 9mm was originally built in 1902, even before the 1911 was available. The 9mm semiauto was available from europe as an alternative to a 1911 to the public, for anyone who chose not to own a .45. back at those times, the focus wasn't on ballistics and power by the public, not really. You couldn't have asked a guy to tell you the velocities that his five gun armory produced. He bought them all based on instinct and advice. The super came out in the twenties, right? while we had semiauto 9 mm pistols available, the super only came in the 1911 frame, iirc. even back then, people who would have bought a super would have been scorned by .45 shooters. Among the people who wanted a semiauto, it eventually came down to only a few choices. 9mm, or a .45 in 1911, or a super in 1911. In fact, ballistics for the super are not amazingly higher than for a 9mm, higher, but not so high that it is a game changer. IMO. When the hi power came out in 1935, now, the 9mm had high capacity, and there were, and still are people who set aside caliber for capacity. several designs of other 9mm guns were also imported. The 9mm was the world wide military and civilian handgun, the .45 was mostly an american product. The super couldn't possibly have survived. But, that doesn't mean that it's not a good gun, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist.
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June 16, 2018, 10:33 PM | #31 | |
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Ok, yes, 1902 for the origin of the 9mm Luger. But don't confuse the 9mm of the past with what's around today. First off, there THE 9mm, the Luger pistol. Marketed world wide, and adopted by quite a few countries, including Germany, in 1906 (Navy) and 1908 (Army). The Pistole Parabellum. The original, and for many years the ONLY 9mm Luger. Up until the Browning Hi Power (and so named for its capacity, not its enegy) in 1935, the Luger pistol was the primary pistol if you wanted a 9mm. Yes, there were Astras, and Stars, and a few other European autos but they found very little commercial success in the US, which was still primarily revolver country. And mostly people didn't get a Luger because it was a 9mm, they got a Luger to get a Luger, and 9mm was the most common chambering. And note the ballistics of the original 9mm Luger, a 124gr bullet at 1050fps from a 4" barrel. Shortly before WW I, the load was changed to a 115gr @ 1150fps (4") The .38 Super (1929) drove a 130gr bullet at 1275-1300fps (5") some say that's a significant difference from the 9mm Luger. Had it not been an improvement over the 9mm Luger, it wouldn't have gotten out of the gate. The commonly held story is that the Super was developed to give law enforcement something with better penetrating ability against cars, and the bullet proof vests of the day. I think this is more marketing than actuality, because, while the .38 Super is a much better penetrator than the .45ACP, most lawmen of the era were packing revolvers and in just a handful of years, (1935) the .357 Magnum came out, basically not only surpassing the Super by a considerable margin, but also in the well known and accepted revolver, not a "new fangled" semi auto. That's what killed LEO interest in the Super, as much as anything. And, remember the 9mm Luger was around the whole time. But it wasn't the round chosen, either. There are a very few Tommyguns in .38 Super, which is kind of a shame, as a Tommygun in .38 Super would be much superior penetrating car bodies than one in .45ACP. So, ok, the Super ran the race, but was always at the back of the pack as far as sales went. But so was the 9mm (in the US) for a very long time.
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June 17, 2018, 01:08 PM | #32 |
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June 17, 2018, 01:13 PM | #33 |
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Much is made of the inaccuracy of the Super .38 (correct name) because it headspaced on the rim. Even so, the gun was more accurate than 90% of shooters. The "inaccuracy" only became important when the Super was used in competition. Before 1980, the 9mm was considered a "foreign" cartridge in the US, and was not particularly popular. Only after development of reliable expanding bullets did the 9mm become popular.
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June 17, 2018, 09:39 PM | #34 |
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I think the existence of the 40 have made the older round moribund sadly. It was a good idea years ago but redundant now
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June 17, 2018, 09:43 PM | #35 |
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Colt introduced the "Super 38" Pistol in 1929. It was chambered for the 38 Automatic, as noted in their ads. The most potent ammo at the time ran a 130 grain bullet at 1190 fps, or as Colt put in their ads, about 1200 fps. Starting around 1933 Remington upped the speed of the 130 grain bullet to 1300 fps, and at some point people started to call the cartridge the 38 Super to distinguish it from the 38 Automatic, which was downgraded in performance and meant only for the older pistol designs.
A review of the new Colt pistol was written by Major J. S. Hatcher and published in the May 1929 issue of The American Rifleman (Reproduced in Sheldon, 1997). Major Hatcher refers to the .38 Automatic cartridge. He does not mention anything about a new cartridge or new loadings of the .38 Automatic. His velocity listings for the “… 130-grain bullet for the .38 A. C. P.” are consistent with Sheldon (1997) and Colt advertisements, and lists them as 1190, 1150, 1126 and 1080 fps from different makers. Major Hatcher piles heaps of praise on the .38 Automatic cartridge, which he also refers to as the .38 A.C.P and .38 Military (deriving this name from the 1902 .38 Military pistol) noting its exceptional velocity and power that is far superior to anything else that exists at the time, including the 9mm Luger. The point here is that the cartridge has been around for quite some time. Sheldon, Douglas G. 1997. Colt's Super .38, The Production History From 1929 Through 1971. Quick Vend, Inc. Willernie, MN. |
June 17, 2018, 09:58 PM | #36 |
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Congrats on your purchase. It is a cool caliber and works well in a Government or Commander 1911. I always find ammo for it in the big box stores, both target and personal protection. It remains a popular cartridge, yes, although perhaps one with a cult following. It goes well with handloading too, and it is a good reason to take up handloading as a pastime. Enjoy. We all should be buying more cool guns and calibers for the sheer joy of doing so. One does not always have to be practical.
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June 18, 2018, 08:21 AM | #37 |
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The .38 Super was, in large part, developed due to police calling for higher powered firearms that could do a better job of defeating automobiles sheet metal during the hay-day of the Depression-era crime spree.
S&W responded to the same call by bringing out the .38-44 Heavy Duty series of revolvers and the uploaded .38 Special HD round.
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June 18, 2018, 10:29 AM | #38 |
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I believe that cost of ammo has a lot do do with it being less popular. If you reload, the .38 Super can be economical to shoot, but low demand leads to higher price. It is the same reason why .380 ACP and .32 ACP cost more than 9mm, even though they use less material. The .38 Super has seen a slight resurgence and there are a few more factory loads available for it now. https://www.ammoman.com/38-super The cheapest on Ammoman.com is still $23.25 which is still more than 10mm. The 10mm is significantly more powerful as it pushes a bullet that is almost 50% heavier at around the same velocity. Buying the 10mm in bulk can drop the price to around $17.50. That is still considerably more than 9mm which averages $10 or .45 ACP which averages around $14-$15 for 50.
I've thought about adding a 10mm a few times, but I have no real need for it and that would mean yet another round to stock. I'll stick to .22 LR, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .223 for now.
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June 18, 2018, 10:55 AM | #39 |
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The 38 Super was invented to solve a specific problem. In the 1920's and 30's standard 38 Special and 45 ACP were failing to get the job done, especially if they had to penetrate barriers.
Today the 38 Super only beats 9mm+p by about 50 fps. The 357 Sig matches or beats it in a more compact gun. It's a cool old round with some history, but from a practical perspective I don't see it ever being popular.
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June 18, 2018, 11:55 AM | #40 |
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"...whoever names cartridges not be trusted..." Commercial cartridges are named by MBA marketing types. Military cartridges are named by committees of assorted colonels who really don't have enough to do.
Trying to figure out why either bunch does what they do can give you an aneurysm. The military at least have a guideline to follow. "...a solution in search of a problem..." There's a lot of that in Firearms Land. Also primarily comes from MBA marketing types. All those No$ler named cartridges for example.
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June 18, 2018, 02:58 PM | #41 |
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"...a solution in search of a problem..."
That's how I got into .38 Super. I bought 1000 rounds super cheap($150) and had to find a devise to fire 'em in. Along came a Llama Extra for the right price; never looked back. Maybe the last gun I'd ever get rid of. |
June 18, 2018, 05:51 PM | #42 |
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I bought a Colt Govm't model 38 Super in 1976. 12 - 14 inch groups, if you can call that a group, every empty case was split down the side. Thought about sending it to a custom shop for barrel/ bushing, but ended up trading it for an H&K P9S.
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June 18, 2018, 07:10 PM | #43 | |
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June 18, 2018, 08:01 PM | #44 |
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For a supposedly near extinct oddball there are a lot of gun makers making 38 supers.
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June 18, 2018, 08:52 PM | #45 | |
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And by the way, 'making' ain't the same as 'selling.' |
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June 18, 2018, 09:06 PM | #46 |
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June 18, 2018, 09:06 PM | #47 |
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Colt
EAA CZ Rock Island Dan Wesson Sig Sauer, although they may be out of productionthey are still available Para USA Les Baer And yeah, manufacturing something that doesn't sell is a time honored business model guaranteed to make any company successful as all get out. EAA has been selling the Witness in .38 Super for at least 10 to 15 years. When I bought my 10mm Witness I almost bought a Super instead. Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk |
June 18, 2018, 09:16 PM | #48 |
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Kimber and Wilson
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June 18, 2018, 10:20 PM | #49 |
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Mine’s an Ed Brown Commander....
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June 18, 2018, 10:49 PM | #50 |
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Colt came to Browning in 1896 or so and asked him to begin designing a semi-automatic pistol for the U.S. Military. It was clear by then that the major powers of Europe were done with revolvers and moving to semi-automatic pistols.
The Europeans had moved first in seeing the advantages in smokeless powder and in semi-automatic pistols. There was Borchardt C93 pistol in the 30 Borchardt round (85 grains at 1280 fps more or less). The Mauser C96 in 30 Mauser and others. The 9mm was introduced in Georg Luger's gun about 1902 after the German Army complained of the lack of shocking power in the lighter 30 Luger. Browning and Colt introduced the Model of 1900 and sent it to the U.S. Army. They followed this up with an improved Military Model of 1902 as well. The guns were chambered in a new round, 38 acp. It was introduced about 1897. It moved a 130 gr. pill at between 1200-1300 fps from a 6" barrel. Browning and Colt were not all in on the new smokeless powder and Browning brought out the case as a semi rim. So the case was long. Longer than what was being used in Europe which he was well aware of. He also designed the round to work at a lower pressure than the lighter rounds being used in Europe for semi-autos. Remember it was 1896 and no one was using a pistol round over 100 grains. http://www.coltautos.com/1900.htm But...the guns were not strong enough for that velocity and power. So a lower power of about 1050 fps was settled on for those pistols. If you study the construction of those early guns you can see why. Meanwhile about 1905 the U.S. military told Colt that they wanted a new gun in 45 caliber and not in 38 caliber which they believed lacked sufficient stopping power. So Browning adapted the design he had for a new 45 caliber round, the 45 acp and a gun to go with it. The case was the same overall length as the 38 acp. After more trials and changes it became the 1911. Meanwhile sales of the guns chambered in 38 acp fell. So in the late 1920s Colt decided to chamber the 38 acp in the 1911. They named the gun the Super 38 They announced it was chambered in 38 acp. The 1911 was a much stronger gun than the earlier Browning pistols in 38acp. The velocity and pressure of the 38 acp was kicked up some for the 1911. Colt let the earlier guns die on the vine. It wasn't until some years later that manufacturers began to call the 38 acp. the 38 Super. The diameter of the 38 acp and 38 Super is .358. For 38 Special/357 Magnum it is .357. In recent years manufacturers use the barrel diameter for the 38 Super as for the 9mm, .355, saves them money. Until after the second world war few guns in 9mm were imported into the U.S. The BHP was never imported in any numbers at all till well after the war. The first American made gun to be chambered in 9mm was the Colt Commander with an alloy frame introduced in 1948-49. It sold very well in 45 acp and 38 Super. It did not sell as well in 9mm. The next 9mm gun made in U.S. by an was by S&W in 1954.
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