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July 8, 2013, 02:58 PM | #101 | |
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Empty chamber is safer?
Not in my experience.
One of the chief rules of gun handling is to always presume the weapon is loaded and ready to fire. ("Treat all guns as loaded...") During the Vietnam War (conflict, action, dust up - whatever) troops not in garrison carried personal weapons (rifles, submachineguns and pistols) loaded at all times until back at their 'home', when all was unloaded. One of the higher echelon commanders decided this was 'dangerous' and issued an order that troops under arms in convoy would stop prior to entering a 'friendly' zone and unload all weapons, transit the 'friendly' zone and then reload upon departing the zone. Accidental discharges (substitute whatever adjective you prefer) tripled. Other than presenting the weapon with the intention of firing, loading and unloading a weapon is the most dangerous action one can perform. On the other hand, leaving a weapon loaded is a known risk. However, it is a 'known' risk, in that the armed party is aware - presumably watchful - of the risk. A house gun is a firearm designated to be used in the event of emergency requiring deadly force. I find keeping such a weapon inert under such conditions to be counter productive. Quote:
Okay, we're all big kids here. You will all make up your own minds. I urge two considerations on this matter: 1. Make up your own mind for your own reasons. Don't slavishly do what some other 'authority' (including me) says. YOU will be the one answering for the results, either way. 2. Whatever you decide to do, commit yourself to a 'standing operating procedure' and always, always, always do it the same way. An emergency is a surprise by definition, one does not need another surprise to compound the matter.
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July 8, 2013, 03:41 PM | #102 | ||
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PS If I was in Vietnam or any other war zone I would be carrying with a round in the chamber in the circumstances I think the benefit of having a round in the chamber outweigh the N/D issues. But a normally peaceful area in America is not a war zone or Vietnam. Most armies that I am aware of still require soldiers to unload when on base for good reasons. From experience here soldiers over the 30 tears of a terrorist campaign had to unload in a safe area before going into base so you are talking hundreds of thousands of unloads and not one soldier injured while unloading. Last edited by manta49; July 8, 2013 at 03:53 PM. |
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July 8, 2013, 04:36 PM | #103 | |
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July 8, 2013, 05:06 PM | #104 | |
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July 8, 2013, 05:55 PM | #105 |
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Double Post
Last edited by Dragline45; July 8, 2013 at 06:01 PM. |
July 8, 2013, 05:59 PM | #106 |
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Your argument was that leaving a gun with no round in the chamber when you are not using it cuts down on negligent discharges, and you used military protocol as an example several times. The fact that they are forced to constantly load and unload there guns resulted in a negligent discharge. If that gun just stayed holstered with a round in the chamber at all times until they actually need to pull it out and use it then I cant see how a negligent discharge would happen in the first place.
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July 8, 2013, 06:32 PM | #107 |
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Keeping an empty chamber does not equal treating guns like they are unloaded. Least not here. Bullet setback is way down my list of concerns vs. me sleeping a little too soundly and my 5 year old forgetting the rules and playing with my highly tactical C&L carry piece sitting on the table. So, off my body, not chambered with a very few exceptions.
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July 8, 2013, 07:50 PM | #108 |
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query
my star bm stay's cocked and locked full mag with a full spare .no kid's here when they do come over they are locked up .
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July 8, 2013, 08:08 PM | #109 |
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I will not bother reading all of the responses to this thread. The simple answer is yes, it needs to be chambered. Why in the world would you not have your primary or secondary HD weapon ready to go at a moments notice? If you have the forethought to have a HD weapon then you need to pull your head out of your you know what and know that if it's not chambered you may as well have nothing at all. My HD weapons go to the range for training purposes and come home empty to be cleaned immediately. I do not chamber and un chamber rounds. If their is a round chambered the only way it will come out is if it clears the muzzle. If you have to ask the question or don't feel safe with a 100% loaded weapon in your house then you should just get a dog and hope for the best.
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July 8, 2013, 10:57 PM | #110 | |
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July 8, 2013, 11:25 PM | #111 | ||||
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Second, in the data I recorded from "1000 round reliability matches" it was apparent that a semi-automatic handgun is significantly more likely to misfeed when a round is being manually chambered than when it is being fired. In other words, leaving the chamber unloaded not only makes it slower and more difficult to bring the gun into action when required, it also makes it very difficult to bring it into action while holding a light, fending off an attacker or with a wounded hand--anytime the person has only one hand available. Finally, even under the best of circumstances it requires a relatively malfunction-prone operation to be performed under emergency conditions. Quote:
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You don't have to "do what you should do" AND leave the chamber empty--you just have to "do what you should do" period. If a chambered round in a home-defense gun is considered an unacceptable risk from the standpoint of NDs, I suggest that the gun be fully loaded and then locked in a secure but rapidly accessible safe. This eliminates the need for chambering a round in an emergency, a relatively error-prone process, and incurs little or no time penalty compared to retrieving a chamber empty gun and then having to load it before engaging. Finally, if the goal is eliminating NDs then increasing firearm manipulation with ammuniton involved is counter-productive. In other words, pick a condition, chamber loaded or chamber empty and stick with it. Constantly loading and unloading the gun is going to increase the chances of an ND not reduce them.
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July 9, 2013, 12:29 AM | #112 | |
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July 9, 2013, 06:27 AM | #113 |
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I always have one in the chamber in my carry pistol and in my pistol on the night stand.
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July 9, 2013, 08:23 AM | #114 | |
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July 9, 2013, 08:29 AM | #115 | |
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Everyone who feels it's "My way or no way" please raise your hand. Everyone who feels they're being forced to carry their 1911 in a way that they don't want to, raise your hand. For heaven's sake. There's disagreements of opinions. That's a problem, how exactly? Sgt Lumpy |
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July 9, 2013, 08:31 AM | #116 | |||
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Last edited by manta49; July 9, 2013 at 08:45 AM. |
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July 9, 2013, 08:36 AM | #117 |
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manta - Unrelated to this topic, I see you're in N Ireland. Would you care to describe what kind of ranges, gun laws etc you have there? I imagine it's different than in the US.
Perhaps appropriate for a different section of the forum. I'm not sure exactly which. Sgt Lumpy |
July 9, 2013, 12:39 PM | #118 | |
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•Some of the licence holders with the largest gun holdings have paintball games among their licence conditions. This includes eight people who own between 150 and 175 firearms each. Their police districts are G and F in the west of Northern Ireland. •Of the 59,585 licence holders we have detailed information on, 98% are male. •The youngest gun owner is 17-years-old and the oldest is 103. •A total of 2,924 licenses have ‘Personal Protection Weapon’ among the conditions of use. These holders include ex-PSNI, civilians and prison officers. Example of a club here. . Northern Ireland Target Sports Association: NITSA www.nitsa.org.uk/ East Antrim Rifle & Pistol Club | Target Shooting Ballyclare - EARPC ... www.earpc.co.uk/ You have to be in a club to get a handgun Rifles AK/47 M/4 Single shot only no mag restrictions on any firearms. Sound moderators easily available for rifles. |
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July 9, 2013, 04:16 PM | #119 |
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Ummm...
*raises hand* Mantra, you're the only one that seems to be preporting that you're way is the best/only way. Knock on wood, I've never had an ND/AD. I have had a loaded pistol next to my bed since I was 16. After I learned my lesson the hard way about keeping house guns unloaded, I have kept them fully loaded and ready to go. The only one that requires more then pulling the trigger to go bang is the 1911A1. I don't have kids, weird roommates, issues with night terrors or doing weird things in my sleep. I live in the woods and generally would have a decent warning period before someone got in the house. There is no reason for me, as far as I can see, not to keep my XD loaded with a round in the chamber at all time. I know what condition it's in and my Dad knows, plus we both know how to check if we arn't sure and nobody else is welcome inside who wouldn't know how to safely clear the weapon if they wanted to fool with it. I can see reasons for keeping the chamber empty, like as an extra precation in case small child forgets the rules about the guns in the house, or being an erratic sleeper. However, I don't see it as the only way, nor as the best way to keep a house gun, or any gun used for SD. As my Dad taught me, if you have it, you have it loaded and that's that. I think if you are habitual about following the four rules and KNOWING the condition of any gun you handle and assuming that unless you have personally cleared the weapon that it is loaded and should be treated as such, then you shouldn't have any NDs, now should you?
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July 9, 2013, 04:44 PM | #120 | ||
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July 9, 2013, 07:39 PM | #121 | |
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You can cut down on a lot of NDs/ADs by being contientious and safe. It's why we have safety rules to begin with. This isn't a matter of weither or not you keep a round in the chamber. This is a matter of safe gun handling, which should be maintained regardless of the condition of your weapons.
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July 10, 2013, 11:53 AM | #122 |
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Totally personal decision; mine is to have my 1911 cocked and locked at all times.
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July 10, 2013, 02:28 PM | #123 | |
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July 10, 2013, 03:25 PM | #124 | |
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July 10, 2013, 08:49 PM | #125 |
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Actually, they don't shoot with just bullets either.
You have to have a spark and charge as well. For modern firearms, that means it requires an entire cartredge. I don't care what condition you keep your personal firearms in, any complacency regarding safety procedure is super bad major no no. The main part of this whole "can't have N/D if you never have a round in the chamber" arguement, is the implication of complacency in regards to safety. Most NDs, in my experiance (to wit, my Dad who's had a few over the course of many years) involve someone being in the process of loading or unloading a gun and getting sloppy. Telling yourself that "I can't have an ND because there is no round in the chamber!!1!" is a good way to teach yourself to get sloppy. Round in or no round in, you can have an ND if your messing with a gun and ammunition at the same time.
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