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Old October 19, 2009, 11:02 AM   #126
threegun
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Micro, Your opinion is bias my friend.
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Old October 19, 2009, 11:31 AM   #127
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threegun I'm sorry apparently you have not read any of my other posts.
I have stated retention drills are important and should be practiced.
my contention is that if you need to practice to hit COM at 3yards you haven't practiced shooting with your sights enough yet.
and I'd bet a ton of money my daughter who's never fired a round without sights can put the first round COM from 3/4 hip at 3 yards.
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Old October 19, 2009, 02:20 PM   #128
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and I'd bet a ton of money my daughter who's never fired a round without sights can put the first round COM from 3/4 hip at 3 yards.
Quote:
I have stated retention drills are important and should be practiced.
Then why on earth would you recommend using sights over point shooting at appropriate distances? Your daughter can do it so can others. Three yards is not retention distance so do you advocate only using sights at distances beyond retention distance even if they are well within the high percentage range of point shooting? If so why?

I mean anyone who is serious about defending themselves with a firearm will use sighted fire albeit flash front or full sights at distances beyond their capabilities with point shooting or any time that high speed is not needed. Only a fool would choose point shooting over sighted fire if the nano second advantage point shooting gives was not likely to make a difference in the outcome. However only a fool would completely disregard the technique except at retention distances for those times that the nano second might make a difference in the outcome.

For you to arbitrarily suggest that point shooting guarantees a miss is silly.
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Old October 19, 2009, 03:04 PM   #129
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Guys, it really isn't an "either/or" choice. Both aimed fire and point shooting are required skills for self defense.
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Old October 19, 2009, 03:09 PM   #130
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The only question I have for the point shooting backers...

... and this isn't an attack, and I'm not anti-point shooting...

... is where do you practice? Most ranges I've been to either list "aimed fire" as a requirement in the form you sign in order to shoot, or post it as a requirement on the rules notice signs.

So if I want to practice point-shooting, I have three options:

1) Find a different venue (in my case, the back yard, so I sometimes play with this) - defensive pistol school ranges probably would fit the bill, but I imagine that would get expensive, fast;

2) Get permission from range management at my regular ranges;

or

3) Break the rules of the range and hope I shoot well enough that nobody notices (I am NOT advocating this at all, just saying it's the only remaining option other than not practicing point shooting)

So how do you all practice point shooting?
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Old October 19, 2009, 03:22 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by MLeake
The only question I have for the point shooting backers... ... is where do you practice?
I don't know if I should be speaking of Threegun's private affairs but, Threegun is a Range Officer and after hours the range becomes a completely different place for the RO's and their guests.
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Old October 19, 2009, 03:29 PM   #132
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RO's and their guests

That's not a surprise. Same logic is why some RO's who know me have let me shoot rapid fire or from the draw when no other customers were on the line. (Concern being that others might try to emulate, thinking it was generally ok to do, so don't do it in front of anybody)

But it still begs the question: People are saying how important it is to train at point-shooting, but not really acknowledging that it may not be easy or even possible to practice.

This is why, in an earlier post, I recommended point-shooting only for people who've practiced it. I don't think we'd like the miss percentages if people who've never done it before, try it for the first time against an assailant.

So how do the regular joes out there practice?

(Possible solution: This is one of the few things I like to use a laser for - practice point shooting in the comfort of your home, as an adjunct to dry-fire practice)
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Old October 19, 2009, 03:46 PM   #133
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So how do the regular joes out there practice?
While I learned the technique in two of the SI classes I attended, like most, our public ranges frown upon PS shooting.

I have a couple of gas blow-back AirSoft guns that let me practice my AIWB draw, shooting while moving, PS, and odd angle shooting in my garage at least once a week. I know some of you will say 'it's not the same', but on the rare occasions I get to do these things with my real steel (or polymer) I can tell it has helped me out.

GBB AirSoft will even help you sighted-shooters stay in practice
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Old October 19, 2009, 04:45 PM   #134
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Then why on earth would you recommend using sights over point shooting at appropriate distances?
I'm not what I'm trying to say is if you really I mean really feal the need to practice your point shooting skills to get hits at 3 yards then you probably haven't dedicated enough time to sighted fire to hit the barn from inside.

also IMHO you better start thinking about retention position at 3 yards cause thats 1/2 step and a lunge. so I'd say 3 yards is well within the range of retention practice.

here is a quote from the original post
Quote:
If you practice both sighted fire and point shooting, under stress you will revert back to point shooting because it requires less mental thought then using your sights.
For the record again I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE TACTIC OF POINT SHOOTING at appropriate distances. I think a 2 day class that teaches pointshooting at 50 feet is a bad idea teaching bad habits.
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Old October 19, 2009, 05:55 PM   #135
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Mleake, You can use a laser to assist in dry fire point shooting practice. I'm lucky in that I can practice both dry and live fire along with shooting on the move in all directions........transitioning from different weapons platforms etc.

With ammo prices at record levels and availability at an all time low I have been using my laser more than I care to recently..........it does work very well however.

Mavracer, I think we probably agree more than we think just missing each others point. I do use my sights whenever possible. I dont need sights to hit close targets at this point. I can get good hits without them even at medium distances. Still if I have the advantage in the reactionary curve or the distances grow farther than my sightless shooting can assure me a hit I will use my sights.

In the only serious time I have drawn my gun to fire (ended up not having to) I remember saying front sight front sight front sight over and over in my head. I also remember that the bad guy looked very thin and his gun (bbgun) looked huge. Microgunner was his intended target (was trying to scare him and pawn the bbgun). The distance was around 10 yards and I had no chance of hitting him with point shooting at that time.
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Old October 19, 2009, 09:44 PM   #136
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Mavracer, I think we probably agree more than we think just missing each others point.
I kinda figured that most of my arguement was with Matt about "training" to point shoot at distances beyond 3-5 yards.
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You can use a laser to assist in dry fire point shooting practice.
thats a big plus 1
Quote:
transitioning from different weapons platforms
That brings up another thing about "training" to point shoot. that that training esp. at longer distances may not do you any good if you change weapons.for example a Glock will point higher than a 1911 because of the differences in grip and grip angle.now this won't make much difference a 3 yards but at 50 feet
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Old October 20, 2009, 02:09 AM   #137
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Mavracer...

Good point about different platforms, and yet another reason I no longer have any Glocks.

My SIGs, CZs, and DW 1911 all point very similarly.

Manual of arms may vary slightly, but that doesn't bother me. Point and balance are a whole different ballgame, though. I like them to be similar.
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Old October 20, 2009, 06:30 PM   #138
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Since I posted this link in the "moving and shooting" thread, I might as well stir up things here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnrId...layer_embedded
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Old October 20, 2009, 07:29 PM   #139
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I was talking about transitioning from pistol to rifle or shotgun. The only time I use two different handguns is when transitioning to my BUG. I am a firm believer in using a single pistol platform as often as possible.
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Old October 20, 2009, 07:42 PM   #140
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old-cop

Some of you have ask why if I can hit a paper plate at 50 yards, I haven't competed. Number one reason is that when I was in my 20's, the cup was just beginning, and reason two was that I was too busy trying to raise a family and keep a marriage together where one partner is a cop.

I did compete on my department's pistol team until they decided that they no longer would support the team. I for sure couldn't get time off to travel for competition, plus as strange as it may seem, I thought being a street cop was more important than shooting targets. I did practice a lot to stay alive, one of the practice regimens was to walk up jackrabbits and shoot them on the run. I got to where I could hit a good number. Since I am a liar, I will not give the number, but if anyone is interested I can furnish witnesses to shooting silhouette targets at 100 yards with a stock, iron sighted 1911 .45. I don't claim to hit every time, but it is a fair number. And I am now in my late 60's.
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Old October 20, 2009, 07:59 PM   #141
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So I'm one that begged the question....

I was one that was wondering. I can certainly understand when you were in your 20's raising a family but as you stated you are in your 60's.

What's holding you back from competing? I'm sure by now you have mastered your technique. Why not give a try and see what your "salt" is worth if you can hit a man target sized target out to 100 yards without using your sights I'd say you need to compete.

Or at the very least advocate your style of shooting and do demonstrations - I'm sure there are several that will pay you to do it on their payroll. I mean a guy that can hit a man sized target out ot 50 or 100 yards without sights.

Now that is a good one - guys with rifles have a hard time shooting out to 100 yards with a scope.

Just saying.... have you seen guys out there zeroing in their hunting rifles?
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Old October 20, 2009, 10:16 PM   #142
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In IDPA there are MANY older men (heck... I'm 55 NOW!!! Expert or above in all classifcations.)

And as for rifle.. Try CMP matches. These are 600 yard. You can shoot service rifle class (AR15, M16, M1A, etc..) or F class (they use scopes.) BTW I have shot those matches and yep, there are quite a few that can put every shot in a 10 inch circle at 600 yards! You can guess what they could to at 100!

Or IHMSA (that's International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association) for handgunning or NRA Rifle Silhouette and try to shoot offhand at 200 to 500 meters for high powered rifle and 40 to 100 yard for small bore .22.

No need to sit back and say you are to old. It ain't cage fighting.

And I assure you, it will make you ten times the shot you are now.
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Old October 22, 2009, 07:30 PM   #143
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Quick question...

As I understand it, point shooting is for when time is so critical that there is no time to acquire a sight picture.

So why is it that sighted fire or a flash sight picture dominates every handgun discipline that involves getting accurate hits on target under time pressure?
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Old October 22, 2009, 08:22 PM   #144
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Quote B Roberts:
"As I understand it, point shooting is for when time is so critical that there is no time to acquire a sight picture.

So why is it that sighted fire or a flash sight picture dominates every handgun discipline that involves getting accurate hits on target under time pressure"

How many of those disciplines have an armed felon charging them with a knife or bat and a free hand to fend off or grab your weapon. You don't know real time pressure until you have been there
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Old October 22, 2009, 08:34 PM   #145
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How many of those disciplines have an armed felon charging them with a knife or bat and a free hand to fend off or grab your weapon. You don't know real time pressure until you have been there
What has that got to do with my question? The assertion is that point shooting is faster - so fast in fact that you don't have time to use the sights. Also asserted is that at ranges of 7 yards or less, it is sufficiently accurate to do the job.

So if that is the case, why doesn't a single high-ranking shooter who competitively shoots for time and accuracy use this method or advocate it?

If point shooting works so well under "real time pressure" as you assert, then why doesn't it work under competition?
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Old October 22, 2009, 08:52 PM   #146
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Flash sight picture adds nothing to the time. It's just as fast unless you use 1/2 hip, and even then the difference is maybe .1 seconds (yes a tenth of a second.) A bullet may very well take more than that time to even affect the other guy.

Point shooting I can see for those with eye sight problems and really can't pick up a sight picture or those with very extreme limitation of ammo. Some LEOs and civilians do fit that.. not because they can't afford the ammo, but they don't want to practice or do have bad eye sight.
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Old October 24, 2009, 01:40 PM   #147
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I just could not help myself. Deaf Smith,

Quote:
"Flash sight picture adds nothing to the time. It's just as fast unless you use 1/2 hip, and even then the difference is maybe .1 seconds (yes a tenth of a second.) A bullet may very well take more than that time to even affect the other guy."
Are you saying a tenth of a second is unimportant in a gunfight, because there might be a delay in in the impact that fired round might have on the BG?
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Old November 6, 2009, 03:08 AM   #148
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If you stick your weapon out when you have someone charging you with a weapon as a knife he can grab your weapon before it is on target and remove it from your hand, it's been done, that is why there is retention shooting with the gun against your body to protect it. In a match you won't loose your life if you goof up. just points.
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Old November 6, 2009, 08:08 AM   #149
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I'd be curious to see if anyone could point shoot their way through one of Paul Howe's Pistol classes. Either the instructor or student one. Seriously, if point shooting/unsighted fire/whatever the term is this week worked and is so god awful fast, why isn't anyone using this wonderful panacea in USPSA, IDPA, the Olympics, you name it?
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Old November 6, 2009, 09:27 AM   #150
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I think there is allot more to be said about point shooting than most people understand! Applegate, Fairbain and Jordan put the point shooting method as the primary concern in gunfights. And these are pepole who have been in actual life and death encounters.
Agree.
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