The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 31, 2008, 09:26 PM   #51
Doggieman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2006
Location: San Diego, Calif.
Posts: 717
Quote:
Just doesnt mave a big wad:P
what's mave a big wad
Doggieman is offline  
Old April 2, 2008, 03:15 AM   #52
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
Quote:
what's mave a big wad
It's a typo. I'm sure he meant to say "have a big..."

The Augila mini-shells don't always feed reliably in some pump shotguns and semi-autos. For single shot and doubles they're just fine of course. Make sure they'll feed reliably before you need to use them. I found they didn't work well if the gun was tipped over at an angle.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old April 3, 2008, 11:23 PM   #53
gordo b.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2002
Location: Peoples republik of Calif.
Posts: 961
I just had to say ; not much a slug can't handle within a 100 yards except stout armor! Slugs are so ferocious that I use Remington Managed recoil ones for HD because I can shoot them so fast and accurately and 1 butter soft Oz. at trans sonic velocities is gonna do the job. I use Brennekes for 4 legged things.
gordo b. is offline  
Old April 4, 2008, 09:22 AM   #54
IdahoG36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2006
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 2,993
Well, it's tactical use is simply this- one to the chest will take the fight right out of somebody. End of discussion.
IdahoG36 is offline  
Old April 4, 2008, 11:19 AM   #55
Doc_DAK
Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2008
Posts: 21
I gotta agree with Tuckahoe: if LAPD had slugs available on 02/28/97, Larry Phillips, Jr. and Emil Matasareanu might have done less damage, even if they weren't stopped completely.
Kind of moot now, with patrol rifles and all, but 1¼ oz. of lead turning into something with 2800+ (2¾" shell) to 3100+ (3" shell) foot-pounds of energy is pretty impressive.
As Buford T. Justice once said, "That's an attention-gettah."
Doc_DAK is offline  
Old April 4, 2008, 09:08 PM   #56
Bob F.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2004
Location: Southeastern WV (left out "north")
Posts: 195
Slugs, or 00 buck would end a lot of car chases. An officer ahead of the chase, with some cover, as with spike-strips, could easily take out the radiator, and other under-hood parts. Unlike spike-strips & tires, once the radiator's out and the car overheats, it's gonna STOP!

Stay safe.
Bob
Bob F. is offline  
Old April 5, 2008, 02:54 PM   #57
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
Actually, the spike strips are safer and more effective than punching holes in the radiator. You can continue to drive a car several miles after the coolant has jumped ship.

Not that a 12 gauge slug won't cause all sorts of havoc under the hood though. Batteries don't react well to bullets either and the resulting short circuit can play hob with onboard computers.

On a side note, one may ask why not use the slug on the windshield to get the driver. Windshields don't pose too much of an obstacle and you're likely to reach the driver. But then, you just created a runaway 2-ton blunt instrument that can injure innocents. It's safer to try to stop the vehicle then deal with the occupant.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old April 5, 2008, 03:30 PM   #58
Boris Bush
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Posts: 921
BillCA

Some here don't like to hear about the actual use of force so I will just cut to the chase.

I tried the shoot the car method once. The last word in the sentence before this one is the key word. One time. I used the taught method every other
time, you can guess what that might be.

hope I didn't offend anyone................
Boris Bush is offline  
Old April 12, 2008, 10:23 AM   #59
Jake M.
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2008
Posts: 5
I understand that the Shotgun slug has tactical value. It knocks people down with one shot. I is cost effective for sure. But the weapon in general has its draw backs. Just working the pump action under stress can be difficult.

One of the guys on my department was involved in a shooting. He shot the suspect two times with a slug. However he short stroked it after the second shot and the gun malfunctioned. He thought it was broken, so the threw it on the ground. You may think that this is a simple training issue, but I can tell you that this officer was high-speed low-drag.
Jake M. is offline  
Old April 12, 2008, 11:15 AM   #60
Boris Bush
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Posts: 921
Jake M.

So very true. I myself have short stroked a pump, more than once. What alot of people here will never realize (thank god) is what they will exactly do in a fire fight. I watched a brother run out into the middle of the road, just stand there and let loose a couple of mags. The volume of fire unleased in our direction was almost overwhelming and he never got touched! He later said "I do not know why I did that!!!" We can laugh about it now, but someone answered my prayers before that mission as well as the prayers of others...

The only real advice I could give someone is that when the elephant charges, it will be exactly how and when they never trained for it to happen and the fundamentals and basics is what will save thier lives.......
Boris Bush is offline  
Old April 12, 2008, 01:54 PM   #61
Ruthless4christ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2007
Location: CNY
Posts: 790
anti big

a slug can really equal the odds. it would be my number one choice for shooting downa door, or firing at a car. one of my fav guns is a handmade single shot pistol that fires a 4.10 shotgun slug. it may be small but i promise you it would put a big whole in just about anything that gets hit.
Ruthless4christ is offline  
Old April 14, 2008, 09:48 AM   #62
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
You may think that this is a simple training issue, but I can tell you that this officer was high-speed low-drag.
FWIW, high-speed low-drag does not mean one is good with all sorts of weapons. My experience is that very few people take the time and effort to properly learn to use the shotgun as a fighting tool, and that very few isntructors know how to train others with the shotgun.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 14, 2008, 11:14 AM   #63
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
Use of a slug

In Florida, Security can get a "Waiver" to have a 12 gauge, not a Rifle, myself I would sooner have my AUG, with a 30 round magazine in it.

Having said what I would like, back to what we have, an ex (not new) Police trade in, Mossberg 500. Smooth as glass, hi vis fiber optic front sight, this replaced the bead. Cheek it, press, 30 yd hits on soft drink bottle.

I use this to walk employees from their place of business to their POVs at closing time, in the dark, but very well lit parking lot on a main road.

Reduced velocity slugs are in the tube, 5 of them. Since the Mossberg and I have been taking this walk, no one loiters, they used too. Level 11 vest, and a Glock 19 as well.
Brit is offline  
Old April 14, 2008, 11:43 PM   #64
Jake M.
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2008
Posts: 5
Mr. Armstrong. I think that you are right. It is a good gun. The only point I was trying to make is that it is not a simplest weapon to use. I know there are pros to using the weapon but I will bring up some cons. When you are using slugs you are basically using a heavy recoil, short range, manually operated, low round capacity rifle. I just think that there are better weapon systems out there. All though I would take one into combat if it was the only long gun I had around.
Jake M. is offline  
Old April 16, 2008, 03:58 PM   #65
Hoss 48
Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2008
Posts: 17
Slugger

Well it has the knock down power for about anyone or anything you might run across. It's also great for taking out a deadbolt in a heavy door. Even at close range the buckshot stays in a pretty tight pattern, it wont disperse right away. Personally for home defense I would pick a nice revolver. I have a snub nose 357. Good house gun for close range, knockdown power, and only one hand to operate.
Hoss 48 is offline  
Old April 16, 2008, 05:49 PM   #66
rantingredneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,728
Quote:
knockdown power
No such animal.....
rantingredneck is offline  
Old April 16, 2008, 10:12 PM   #67
ISP2605
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Posts: 954
In 1988 during a shoot out with a subject one of our guys was armed with a 12 ga shooting 1 oz foster slugs. He hit the guy at about 30 ft from the side in the left upper arm nearly removing the arm. The slug then entered the chest taking out a rib. It then continued thru both lungs and clipping the top of the heart and removing the aorta, then taking out a rib as it exited the chest cavity. It then took out most of the bicept on the right upper arm. The slug was never recovered. DRT. When we opened the chest cavity it looked like everything above the diaphram had been run thru a blender.
Slugs work and work well.
ISP2605 is offline  
Old April 17, 2008, 01:10 PM   #68
Samurai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 901
You forgot the most important thing: A 12-ga. slug works the way no ordinary can opener does! It's perfect for ricing potatoes, peeling watermelons, juicing oranges, heck... just about any common culinary task!
__________________
- Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed!

- Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight?

- When in doubt, train, train, train...
Samurai is offline  
Old April 18, 2008, 09:58 AM   #69
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Mr. Armstrong. I think that you are right. It is a good gun. The only point I was trying to make is that it is not a simplest weapon to use.
No disagreement from me. That is the biggest problem, I feel, with the shotgun---too many people think it IS easy to use, while it is probably one of the hardest to use well. It pays you back by being a great weapon, but you have to learn how to work it right to get that success.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 20, 2008, 10:16 PM   #70
sjsgt
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1
Tactical use of the shotgun!

Training is the key to any tactical senario. Most people and law enforcement professionals hate to shoot heavy shotguns. So they do not train with the weapon regularly. A proper shotgun slug, used by a trained person, will end any CQB situation. A rifle bullet will pass through the target at extremely close range and most times not cause the desired effect. The shotgun slug, moving slower and with greater mass, is perfect.
It's no different than hunting any dangerous game. An aimed shot from a trained person, with the proper equipment, will usually end the threat. A charging brown bear or a crazy bad guy. Only the untrained person, thinks a shotgun slug is for Hollywood movies.
sjsgt is offline  
Old April 20, 2008, 11:44 PM   #71
kennybs plbg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2004
Location: Hemet, Ca.
Posts: 524
Training is not required to shoot a slug proficiently, just practice.
I'd put my money on a deer hunter's shot placement over a LEO with a few weeks training anyday.

kenny b
kennybs plbg is offline  
Old April 21, 2008, 06:34 AM   #72
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,712
Quote:
Mr. Armstrong. I think that you are right. It is a good gun. The only point I was trying to make is that it is not a simplest weapon to use.
I never thought of a pump shotgun as being difficult to use. The whole process is quite simple. It can be screwed up, but that isn't a function of the complexity of the mechanism. It is a function of the shooter not completing a very simple task.

With that said, the use of slugs has nothing to do with the complexity of the platform.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old April 21, 2008, 12:35 PM   #73
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
The shotgun is not difficult to use. It is difficult to use it well enough to get the most out of it. Few people pattern the guns, learn to use different loads, how to utilize the zone effects, etc.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 21, 2008, 12:59 PM   #74
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
What's there to know:

1. You just have to rack it to scare away the BG
2. You can't miss
3. It will knock down the BG if you do shoot like the hammer of Thor (preferred analogy for gun lists).

Oh, wait - never mind!

I have had this told me by very smart gun folks.

BTW, for something else I was working on, I read a description of a police officer short stroking his pump under extreme stress. If an instrument has the possiblility of needing a physical manipulation that is subject to such stress effects - one might argue that it is difficult to use given standard human factors analyses.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old April 21, 2008, 03:36 PM   #75
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
BTW, for something else I was working on, I read a description of a police officer short stroking his pump under extreme stress. If an instrument has the possiblility of needing a physical manipulation that is subject to such stress effects - one might argue that it is difficult to use given standard human factors analyses.
Short-stroking seems to be fairly common, Glenn. Every course I've attended or given it has reared its ugly head. That's one of the reasons I preferred my Beretta 1201 for serious social shotgunning.
David Armstrong is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11470 seconds with 8 queries