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View Poll Results: AIMING: ONE-EYE or TWO | |||
ONE-EYE | 68 | 39.08% | |
TWO-EYE | 72 | 41.38% | |
EITHER WAY | 34 | 19.54% | |
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll |
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May 30, 2007, 12:34 PM | #51 |
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Lurper ~
Okay, my rhetorical question just became a real question: If EVERYONE can learn to shoot quickly, precisely and accurately with both eyes open, why don't these highly-experienced, trained competitors get rid of the "crutch" of using tape on one lens? pax |
May 30, 2007, 12:36 PM | #52 |
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To Gregma (or "non-dominant eyes")
Gregma: when you shoot with one eye, which eye do you use, or if you alternate, what's your favorite, better: the one you are most accurate with ?
OK, next time you shoot, shoot with both eyes open after the first time shooting with the most accurate one-eyed shot you have. Then, when you keep both eyes open, if you see a double image, shoot at the one that corresponds to your most accurate eye. Ignore the other. Maybe shoot at a closer distance, say 15 feet, helps to keep the double images from being real far apart if you do see two. If it drives you nuts, make sure you're paying attention to the front sight but not squinting or trying too hard. When I shoot the most accurately is when I'm not trying to squeeze my face into a fist etc. Try making your face a blank, like you don't care. Anyway, those tricks work for me but may not for you. As a new shooter I find that tension and strain are the things that throw my aim off the most. The more I keep my body and face relaxed but alert, with a tight grip but only using the hand muscles (not the shoulders, arms, legs etc.) the more naturally the shots hit where I want them. I don't know if this is "right", but it makes for more accuracy and I enjoy shooting a lot more. Whenever I get angry at myself, I take a break and have a coke or something and think about something else for a few minutes. I want to enjoy my range time, otherwise I'll stop going. |
May 30, 2007, 01:42 PM | #53 |
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Pax
Because the application is different. For SD, you are shooting at extremely close range, a small amount of ammo in a short amount of time and don't require a lot of precision. For competition, you are shooting a lot of rounds over a longer period, at various ranges and require more precision. Most of the top shooters do not use tape, although there are some who do (but only with iron sights). Again, the reality is (all rhetoric aside) that at typical self defense ranges one eye will not make a difference in how accurate you are. It may however slow you down enough to get you in trouble. More importantly, it will occupy your mind with trivial thoughts that you don't need at a time of crisis. With proper training, I can teach anyone to hit the target at 10 yards or less in under a second with both eyes open (regardless of eye dominance, tape, double images, etc.). As the distance decreases the sights become less and less important, even though I advocate always using the sights. Train to shoot with both eyes open quickly for SD. For recreation, shoot w/one if necessary but you can train yourself to shoot w/2. FWIW I use tape if I am shooting iron sights, no tape for optics. There are many times when I switch guns without switching lenses on my glasses. I can shoot equally well with the tape as without. That is because using the tape trained my mind to pay attention to the image from the dominant eye. |
May 30, 2007, 07:50 PM | #54 |
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Lurper ~
It has not been my experience that blinking an eye takes any longer than -- well, than the blink of an eye. Nor does it take any particular thought. It has been my experience that choosing between multiple, equally-bright, equally-focused images takes both time and concentration (concentration you might not have to spare). This is true for folks who are trained as well as for those who are not. If it were simply a matter of "get more training," then those highly-trained, highly-experienced competitors would not need to put tape on their glasses when shooting for accuracy under time stress. Additionally, you imply that accuracy over distance absolutely will not be required by a self-defense shooter. This is not supported by the facts. Statistically, it is more likely that your encounter -- if it ever comes -- will be fast and close. But that does not guarantee it will be either. If you are unfortunate enough to be involved in a situation in which extreme accuracy over distance is required, you had darn well better know how to get your hits accurately over distance. I am quite uncomfortable with claims that there is only one way to do things: "only one good caliber," "only one decent brand of gun," "only one useful stance," and "only one correct grip" are all equally wrong-headed. People are different from each other! Not everyone has the same hand size, the same firearms selection priorities, the same body shape, or the same physical wiring. My credo is still, Do what works for you. pax |
May 30, 2007, 08:09 PM | #55 |
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Why handicap your self by using only one eye and loosing your depth perception?
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May 30, 2007, 09:07 PM | #56 |
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obxned ~
How much of the thread have you read? pax |
May 30, 2007, 10:16 PM | #57 |
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Aw crap,
I just use a shotgun as shotguns are pointed - not aimed. 'Sides everyone knows [tm] one can't miss with all them pellets. Fred Misseldine, Champion Shooter, and author of Score Better at Skeet Score Better at Trap Used both eyes. It did not matter if any of his 1300s in 12, 20, 28 ga or .410 had a bead on the barrel or not, if he could see it, he could fell it. Fluid and smooth with no wasted motion like "Painting them out of the sky". I've stood right there as he did this, be it clay, duck, dove or quail. Live long enough and age takes its toll. Fred was older, aches, pains, problems and blind in one eye. He was still able to Paint them out of the sky. The reality is, as Fred and so many have shared throughout the years, is not everyone is built at the factory the same way. It happens. So one has to do what one has to do to live life on life terms. Seasoned shooters that can access and assist are worth their weight in gold to folks born like this, or during life suffer a set back. I get the patch off my weak eye, and turn right back around one weak later and have to wear another. Odd that even with safety glasses, with side shields, something in my work would get past them safety glasses. Odder is having safety glasses with side shields and a face shield, and do this again. Eye Doc/ Surgeon is a relative of mine, and a shooter. "This just don't happen" he said and we discussed some additional safety measures, he came to see the task that was causing this. I get the patch off the weak eye the second time, and 2 weeks later in a business related matter, I mess up my right eye. Short version, a car wreck, I was evading someone being mean... I had Chuck Yeager eyes at the time. Still I was wearing my Ray Ban Aviators when I had that wreck. At night I wore my Bushnell clear Aviators I shot in. [shooting glasses] Something suggested from a defensive driving private instructor or three. Protect the eyes , and when matters get serious, you gotta see to evade and take action. Sure am glad my Mentors and Elders made a big deal out of lessons, learning and doing the odd stuff they did with me. Both eyes and strong side down so doing everything weak handed. Dominant eye down and doing both strong and weak hands Weak eye down and doing both strong and weak hands. One never knows when they will find themselves having to do ADLs [Activities of Daily Living] different. Might be something from birth, accident or injury, temporary or permanent. Not a good idea to so hard headed one cannot be receptive to reality.
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May 30, 2007, 10:32 PM | #58 |
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I aim with one eye-----------------
...never been in a gunfight. Lucky we got eyes.
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May 30, 2007, 10:39 PM | #59 |
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The only time I aiim with one eye is when there is something stuck in the other. Keep both eyes open and get used to it. Open sights, scopes, holo-sights, etc.. it don't matter. Keep'em open.
Deaf
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May 31, 2007, 09:37 AM | #60 |
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I'm one of those one-eyed shooters
Unfortunately, I am still trying after almost 20 years of handgun shooting and training to be accurate with both eyes open. I know it is best but for some reason I just wasn't made this way and do not trust my accuracy over 5 yards or so with both eyes open.
But I'll keep trying and practicing and hopefully I'll be able to override genetics |
May 31, 2007, 12:52 PM | #61 |
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03shadowbob
You just haven't met the right instructor. |
May 31, 2007, 01:19 PM | #62 | |
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Quote:
People are not that different. What makes the difference in shooting is more mental than physical. We are socialized to believe that we are all "unique" and special. But, what makes us that way is personality, not physiology. The vast majority of people are all the same. I am quite uncomfortable with claims like: "that works for them, but it won't for me". That is just an excuse. Many people don't really want to learn how to shoot well. Many create reasons not to succeed rather than to succeed. Others listen to their favorite writer (who is a writer, not a champion shooter) who may have his/her own agenda or bias and buys their story hook line and sinker. Either way, the outcome is the same. 2% of the shooters outshoot the other 98%. They all use the same basic technique. That should tell you something. |
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June 1, 2007, 01:15 AM | #63 |
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Lurper ~
You have continually asserted that anyone can be taught to shoot with both eyes open. If this were true, and if it were also true -- as you assert -- that there is only One Best Way to shoot -- then every single one of these top 2%'ers would be shooting with both eyes open, without the crutch of using tape. Obviously, they have not all had the benefit of your expertise! It's particularly amusing that you have claimed that you have never met a shooter who couldn't be taught to shoot with both eyes open, but then opined that anyone who has obtained the training but still cannot shoot with both eyes open just "doesn't want to shoot well." It's pretty apparent that your preconceived notions have prevented you from being able to see the shooters who really-and-truly were not wired to do it your way. Those lazy bums! Meanwhile, I continue to believe that human beings differ one from another. Roughly 15% of the population is strongly left-handed. Rather than fighting against these folks' inbuilt wiring, I'll help them find ways to work with their wiring to run the guns they've got in the most efficient manner possible. Even though left-handedness can be a handicap in running some types of firearms, I won't force those folks to be right-handed simply to fit my preconceived notion of the "right" way to do things. I'll work with the wiring they've got, not with what I wish they had. Similarly, some small percentage of the population simply does not have a dominant eye, and are incapable of being trained to favor one over the other well enough to allow accurate, rapid sight acquisition with both eyes open under stress. Rather than fighting against these folks' inbuilt wiring, I'll help them find ways to work with their wiring to obtain fast, accurate hits while minimizing their handicap. By the way -- for those six people still reading the thread with halfway-open minds -- it's important to note that both the one-eye and the two-eye shooters are equally prone to tunnelling in on the target, and both need to train themselves to break out of the tunnel at the earliest opportunity. Just because you shoot with both eyes open does not mean you are immune to the effects of tunnel vision. pax |
June 1, 2007, 02:24 AM | #64 |
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Actually, they have and I have had the benefit of theirs since I was one of them. There is a big difference between being left handed and shooting with both eyes open. It has nothing to do with wiring. It is physically impossible to draw a line from an object to your finger and to both eyes. You will favor one eye. I have taught plenty of cross dominant shooters to shoot with both eyes open without a problem.
As far as the tape goes, if what you assert was true, those who use the tape would not be able to shoot without it. They can just as well and they do all shoot with both eyes open. I never asserted that anyone who obtained the training but cannot shoot with both eyes doesn't want to. I asserted that I have never met anyone who could not be trained to shoot with both eyes. I stand by that assertion. What I did assert with that statement is that people make excuses for not excelling at certain things for myriad reasons. That is psychology, not laziness. |
June 1, 2007, 10:12 AM | #65 | |
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Quote:
If what I assert was true, these shooters would actually shoot better (faster when accuracy matters; more accurate when speed matters) with one eye obscured, either by an eyelid or by a piece of tape. And, oddly enough, they do. That's why they use the tape. pax |
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June 1, 2007, 10:32 AM | #66 |
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Well, I have a question. I read (earlier in this thread, I believe, it was yesterday when I read it) the way to find your dominant eye is to close one eye, then the other, and where ever your hand is when you open them both, then that's your dominant eye (I didn't explain it very well, but anyway) I see two fingers pointing, I can use one eye or the other to focus in on it, making it move, but with my eyes open I can't see JUST ONE finger, when i only have one up. There is a dominant one in the middle, but there is a see-through image to the right or left, whichever I choose to focus with, and I can't seem to focus with both/ or not focus with either.. I tried shooting last night, and it was the same case with my sights. Is this what you all are talking about, and I just need more training, or what? I can't figure out which eye is dominant, because they can both take over, I can focus either one.
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June 1, 2007, 10:35 AM | #67 |
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Phew. You two are wearing me out.
One of the damnable qualities of being a Gemini, I suppose. "Good point Pax. Oh yeah, that makes sense Lurper." Up in the grey loft, I have this tiny voice that keeps reading this thread and announcing it to my mind's ears like a tennis match. 15-love. 30-love. 30-15. 30-30. You guys are making some great points. But I can't come down on one side or the other on this debate. Perhaps I'll take a new approach - both eyes closed? |
June 1, 2007, 10:41 AM | #68 |
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How many of these shooters do you know and have you discussed it with at length? Again, they can shoot just as well without the tape as with it. Contrary to what you may think, closing one eye requires that you engage your concious mind. You cannot perform at peak levels unless you remove your conscious mind from the process. The tape is a heuristic.
Accepting that you can only shoot accurately if you close one eye creates a self-imposed limitation. Until you can let go of that limitation, you are bound by it. It is a limitation imposed by your mind, not your eyes. The way to break the limitation is to train. As I mentioned earlier, in reality the level of precision necessary for civilians in SD situations is not that high. Hitting an 8" plate at 25 feet is good enough. A half blind monkey could be trained to do that with one eye or two. |
June 1, 2007, 12:38 PM | #69 |
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Well Lurper, here's your chance
Here is my situation... I am in a Chapman Stance (my most natural position). I am shooting a Beretta 92FS right-handed. Target is 25 feet away. I have the front site focused. Here is what I see: Target - Two targets, both equally sharp a large distance between them. The left target is slightly lower than the right target. Front sight - Sharp and clear. Only one. Rear sight - Two rear sights, both equally sharp a small distance between them. The left rear sight is again slightly lower than the right target. What do I do? Thanks! Greg |
June 1, 2007, 12:41 PM | #70 |
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To JDM357 or "Non-Dominant" Eyes
Try the other tests on this thread - or also ask yourself: when shooting with one eye, which one is it? That's likely the dominant eye - least if it's accurate. If you alternate, which gives you better accuracy or feels easier to use? Another hint to find the dominant eye.
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June 1, 2007, 01:15 PM | #71 |
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Gregma
Since this is just about the eyes, I won't go into the deficiencies of the Chapman stance. Try this first: Aim your pistol at the target with your strong hand. Focus on the front sight. Cover your weak hand eye with your weak hand without changing your stance. Where is the sight relative to the target? Without moving the gun, cover your strong hand eye with your weak hand. Where is the sight now? The sights will be on the target with one eye. That is the eye you want to start working with. Let me know how that works. This may be a long laborious process via a forum, but doesn't take long in person on the range. |
June 1, 2007, 02:29 PM | #72 | |
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I just can't stay away from this one
Greg,
Pick one and shoot at it. Even if you had absolutely no domination between one eye to the other, you will be right-on on one of the targets you see. Then cover your eyes one at a time. The eye that sees the correct image that was hit from the double image is the more dominant eye. You will be on target with one, so it doesnt really matter. The one which had the POI that was different than POA is the ghost. Don't shoot at that one. Boy, it's tough to explain in a forum. I don't have the experience training others that Lurper does either. Basicly if you shoot when one is lined up with your sights and POI is = to POA, the other image is the ghost. If POI is different than POA, that one is the ghost, align to the other image. Pax, The tape on the target shooters glasses not only helps fatigue, because they may be shooting a lot of rounds at CRAZY long distances for a long time that day, it also will help with the supreme amount of accuracy needed to win such a competition. Do you think they would really be a "bad" shot without the tape, or just an unbelievably amazing shot with it? I bet most would outshoot me without the tape if I was shooting at half the distance they were. And I shoot well. Do you think they will not be able to quickly and accurately defend themselves with both eyes open in a SD encounter? Also, it was said that anyone can be trained to learn to do this. This is completely true, either by recognizing the correct eye dominance, eliminating ghost images as targets, or indexing in a "kentucky windage" fashion (know where it will hit by the pattern of hits in practice vs what you see). There is a way to understand POI relative to POA for any shooter who truely wants to learn. Not even making the attempt to learn to do it right, just saying "well I just can't", is indeed nothing but giving up, a bad excuse, and/or laziness. I agree with the statement that a plate at 25' is all the accuracy needed. This is also common in training. You don't need to make a perfect head shot on a fast draw, he-who-fires-first-wins; just be able to place a reasonably accurate series of rounds COM. And be ready to move. Fast. As far as being equally prone to tunnelling in on the target, it's also about periphrial(sp?) vision. Being able to see someone from your closed-eye side running into your sight picture. Being able to move while shooting without taking your eyes off your front sight. Being MORE ABLE TO PROPERLY DEFEND YOURSELF. I don't understand why you are taking such issue with this. EasyG, Quote:
Maybe there isn't a blanket black and white on this. But there is a best way. When it comes to being able to defend onesself, why would any way but the best way be enough? |
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June 3, 2007, 05:55 PM | #73 |
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I used to shoot pistol with both eyes open. It took me awhile and I shot reasonably well, but not fantastic because I didn't shoot all that much.
I now shoot one-eyed and bassackwards, right-handed, left-eyed. (Right one doesn't work anymore.) I shoot a lot more now and I've far surpassed my previous accuracy and speed. Of course it's hard to compare what it 'used to be like' to now, but it doesn't seem to me to be much different. Shooting IDPA (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) I seem to be able to acquire targets and maintain awareness as well as ever. That being said, I do agree that both eyes open is the best method. However, it is far from impossible to become acceptably proficient closing one eye. As anything else, practice is the key. |
June 3, 2007, 06:44 PM | #74 | |
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Quote:
I'm sure most took my "not arguing" to mean what it was meant as, and that was that I was not going to defend it with further debate, because a great many years of training and trying said I shoot better my way. I'll refrain from replying to the rest of your plebeian insults and just put them off to your arrogance and a poor attempt at self-aggrandizement.
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June 3, 2007, 07:22 PM | #75 | |||
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