What would you have done at 4 am?

[csmsss]

Around here it is also common for burglars to knock on doors first & if no one answers they will find a way to get him.

I'm guessing you mean "in", not "him". In any case, in my general area home invasions are not infrequent, and if the party on the outside knows you are home, that is an invitation to begin the fun. And if they think you might be armed, it's an invitation to come in heavy. Obviously we must all make our own choices based on our unique circumstances, but for me, the best choice for protecting my family is not to reveal that anyone is home.

[glh17]

Assuming someone is just knocking on my door (not actually trying to get inside), I'd call the cops and shout that if you need help the police will be here shortly.

I would behave as if, but not assume, the person was up to no good. In other words, I would not shoot through the door. There's a possibility the person may just need help. I remember something similar happening not long ago. Can't remember where.

Someone, might have been female, had a accident late at night and was injured. Went to the nearest home, was knocking and yelling at the door and ended up getting shot. The homeowner wasn't prosecuted but it was a tragic mistake.

[lcpiper]

Someone, might have been female, had a accident late at night and was injured. Went to the nearest home, was knocking and yelling at the door and ended up getting shot. The homeowner wasn't prosecuted but it was a tragic mistake.

If we are talking about the same incident, then these details are a little off from what I have read, this would be more accurate. Of course an investigation and a trial will see what the real details were.

Hours before her death — which was first reported to the police by Mr. Wafer with a 911 call — she had been in a car accident on a west Detroit street, six blocks from Mr. Wafer’s home.

Ms. McBride had hit a parked car and apparently hurt her hand, witnesses said, before leaving the wreck, returning and then leaving again.

An autopsy showed that she was intoxicated and that her blood-alcohol content was more than twice the legal limit for driving, a fact that Ms. Worthy said was irrelevant to the case. Neighbors near the accident said that they had tried to offer Ms. McBride assistance, but that she was unresponsive and disoriented and disappeared into the darkness on foot.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/us...l?pagewanted=2

Here accident was hours before she was shot, I think that's at least two, six blocks away wasn't the closest house, another woman had offered help, but the young women was too drunk to accept it and she ran off down the road no one knows where, and like was said, six blocks and hours later, she showed up on this guys steps beating on his door.

Now I am not offering judgment, but, unless there is a secret witness or a recording somewhere, no one other then the defendant knows in what way this woman presented herself at the man's door that night.

A Jury will here it if it isn't thrown out.

[glh17]

icpiper,
I'm pretty sure that was the incident. I'd forgotten the details and that she was intoxicated but remembered she was acting strangely. I'd still not shoot someone through the door, but I wouldn't open the door unless I knew alot more about the situation either.

[lcpiper]

Agreed.

[herdman]

1)I would have bedside firearm already at the sound of the knocking. And, cell phone and would call police

2)OUtside lights flipped on our set off by motion detector. Would not go near the door.


3)Family gathered in safe place with weapon(s).

4)Wait for police.

Note: If he comes through door before police arrive. Then, game on.

[thump_rrr]

What is wrong with grabbing a gun, and a phone and going to see who it is?
Maybe it's your neighbor Bob trying to tell you your barn or car is on fire.
Maybe it's Bob who was attacked and fled his house because he was unarmed and knows you aren't.

If it is a drunk at the wrong house they may see you with the gun and realize that they should GTFO of there and leave.
If it is a criminal they will then need to decide wether to take on an armed person who is inside their own home.
Most criminals are lazy and wouldn't want to go through the effort when they can find an easier target.

[FireForged]

nothing "wrong" with taking a peek but I certainly would not open the door at 4am unless I am darn sure and I mean DARN sure its a friend or trusted neighbor and what they want.

The bad thing is that if its not a friend but rather a sketchy situation, they want you at the front door for a reason... You open the door to some innocent looking guy huffing and puffing trying to tell you what is the matter... all the while, his partner has already begun climbing in through the window they just took 30 minutes quietly getting the glass out of. By the time you realize something isn't right.. you have a bad guy in front of you and behind you.

The way I look at it.. the sheriff can be at my door in 5 minutes.. if someone needs help that badly, the sheriff can help them and I will gladly make the call for them from behind a closed and locked door.

[Deaf Smith]

What would you have done at 4 am?

I'd have got my gun and called the cops while watching the commotion from inside the house.

Deaf

[Willie Lowman]

Well, it's good thing no one here suggested it isn't it?

Well...

Some of the comments I've seen from other neighbors were like shoot thru door then call police

That may not be the recommendation from a TFL member in this thread but it is suggesting what I was railing against. If you think nobody on this forum has ever suggested shooting someone who has not been identified as a tactically sound practice, you haven't been reading T&T for very long.

[manta49]

The idea of shooting through the door without knowing who is on the other side is possibly the most irresponsible, unreasonably paranoid, and flat out stupid things I have ever seen suggested here.

Agreed the stupidest advice I have heard in a long time. I hope I don't have to explain why.

[JohnKSa]

...shooting someone who has not been identified as a tactically sound practice...

Tactically speaking, shooting through a door can be a very sound approach. There's a tremendous tactical advantage to eliminating a potential threat before it can harm you. However, tactics aren't the only thing at issue--the problem comes when you view the situation from a moral/legal standpoint.

[manta49]

Tactically speaking, shooting through a door can be a very sound approach. There's a tremendous tactical advantage to eliminating a potential threat before it can harm you. However, tactics aren't the only thing at issue--the problem comes when you view the situation from a moral/legal standpoint.

The problem comes when you don't know who is at the other side of the door. Which was the case in this incident, It could be a neighbour's child, someone looking for directions, someone injured, etc. So unless you know who it is and they are trying to harm you, shooting through the door is stupid, and irresponsible. I think more emphasis should be put on this rather than some possible tactical advantage.

[peacefulgary]

Suspect banging on back door at 4am this morning...

Someone was setting off our back yard motion detector lights multiple times, banging on our back door several times.

I'm not sure that "suspect" is the correct term at this point as no crime has been committed.

As far as I know it is not illegal to knock on someone's door, even at 0400.


I would have turned on the outside floodlights and asked through the door, with pistol in my hand, "Who's there and what do you want?".
It might be a neighbor in need or some drunken idiot who has the wrong house.

Now if they tried to force their way in to my home, well, here is the NC statute that covers such a scenario...

§ 14-51.2. Home, workplace, and motor vehicle protection; presumption of fear of death
or serious bodily harm.
(a) The following definitions apply in this section:
(1) Home. – A building or conveyance of any kind, to include its curtilage,
whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or
immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed as a
temporary or permanent residence.
(2) Law enforcement officer. – Any person employed or appointed as a
full-time, part-time, or auxiliary law enforcement officer, correctional
officer, probation officer, post-release supervision officer, or parole officer.
(3) Motor vehicle. – As defined in G.S. 20-4.01(23).
(4) Workplace. – A building or conveyance of any kind, whether the building or
conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a
roof over it, including a tent, which is being used for commercial purposes.
(b) The lawful occupant of a home, motor vehicle, or workplace is presumed to have
held a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm to himself or herself or another
when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily harm to
another if both of the following apply:
(1) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of
unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a
home, motor vehicle, or workplace, or if that person had removed or was
attempting to remove another against that person's will from the home,
motor vehicle, or workplace.
(2) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an
unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or
had occurred.

In NC, you can use deadly force to PREVENT someone from breaking in to your home (even if your home is a tent) if you have reason to believe that they are doing so to cause you great harm or kill you.

[Garycw]

Originally Posted by kenpomace

Suspect banging on back door at 4am this morning...




Some of the comments I've seen from other neighbors were like shoot thru door then call police.

That's the LAST thing I would do. Could have been someone in desperate trouble or to tell you your house was on fire. Lots of scenarios.

I'm in the country too and one night around 4 am, I was awakend from a dead sleep of what sounded like someone coming through the door. I immediately grabbed my 1911, flashlight and headed to the door to meet them. Turns out we had temporarily set up a fax near there and it was going through a shut down mode or something.
Either way I was going to meet them prepared to find out what was going on. If you had shot someone through the door you may have been very sorry and in jail.

[JohnKSa]

I think more emphasis should be put on this rather than some possible tactical advantage.

Of course it should. Nothing I said indicates otherwise.

I was specifically responding to the comment that shooting through the door was not "tactically sound". The fact is that it can be tactically sound--the reason that it is generally not recommended is because of the moral and legal issues involved.

[Willie Lowman]

JohnKSa, I think you are confused.

I was specifically responding to the comment that shooting through the door was not "tactically sound".

I made a comment stating that people have endorsed shooting unidentified persons (in the dark or through a door) as "tactically sound" and I do not agree with said practice. I never said it was not "tactically sound" because by definition, shooting people before they know you are there is about as "tactically sound" as it gets.

[Home Defense Gun]

You did exactly the right things - turn on the lights, call the cops, didn't open the door.

Good discussion of this in a Massad Ayoob video on YouTube - Don't Answer the Door, just search for it.

[Brit]

Called 911 once, in my 10 years in this house, 5 minutes response time.

We are upstairs, two of us. Check for known vehicles from upstairs. Call 911, hit the alarm switch it is one loud siren, give it a couple of minutes, turn it off!

Cell phone, Glock 19, we are the end of 4 town houses.

[treg]

You really need a way of seeing who's at your door without "going to" the door or answering it.

Window in another room, camera, etc.

[lcpiper]

That may not be the recommendation from a TFL member in this thread but it is suggesting what I was railing against. If you think nobody on this forum has ever suggested shooting someone who has not been identified as a tactically sound practice, you haven't been reading T&T for very long.

Sorry Willie, I try and stick to focusing on the topic as presented. I don't see much use in dragging in responses from people who aren't involved unless it has a direct bearing on the course of the conversation.

But hey, that's just me

[lcpiper]

If they are on the other side of the door, I don't see how you could feel your life was in danger.

BTW, are you sure? Bullets can pass through doors in both directions. I am just playing devil's advocate here, but the truth is, the moment a bad guy selects your home as a possible target, you are in danger whether you realize it or not.

The rest is a matter of degrees and particulars.

[Dreaming100Straight]

Quote:
If they are on the other side of the door, I don't see how you could feel your life was in danger.

BTW, are you sure? Bullets can pass through doors in both directions. I am just playing devil's advocate here, but the truth is, the moment a bad guy selects your home as a possible target, you are in danger whether you realize it or not.

You may not use deadly force just because you are in danger or even if you reasonably fear that your life is in danger. In most states, you must have a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury. In most metropolitan areas your life is in in danger whenever you get on a freeway, but not imminent danger.

Whether or not your you held such a fear and if it was reasonable is a question of fact. If at 3 in the morning the person is on the other side of a door chambering a round and taking a stance to kick in your door, all of which you saw on a security monitor, I think law enforcement and a jury might buy justifiable homicide. If you didn't know that they were chambering a round or were even armed or that they were preparing to kick in the door, you may need a good criminal defense attorney.

[lcpiper]

DreamingStraight, i am not talking about the law, i did not recommend any action. I just said what I said, don't read anything at all into it.

[csmsss]

If you didn't know that they were chambering a round or were even armed or that they were preparing to kick in the door, you may need a good criminal defense attorney.

ANYONE involved in any sort of SD or HD shooting will more than likely need a good criminal defense attorney. Shooting through a door at someone who has not fired at you merely raises the likelihood to 100%.

Fact is, it's dumb to put yourself in harm's way unnecessarily. If you really think that knock/disturbance at the door could be someone wanting to take a shot at you, why would you put yourself in a position to be in the direct line of fire?