Why the hate for LCI

TennJed · September 23, 2012, 01:32 PM

Seems quite a few folks do not like loaded chamber indicators. Why is that? Do the LCI pose any potential function problems?

BGutzman · September 23, 2012, 01:47 PM

I dont think they are a problem but more or less seen as pointless... If you have a weapon you should know if its loaded or not especially if its in your hand...

In a ccw situation I just dont ever see where the indicator has even a moment of time to be used.

Luger_carbine · September 23, 2012, 01:56 PM

I have no problem with a LCI from the point of view that it is a tool that I can use if I wish - and it's better than pulling the slide back a bit to peek, IMO. Although I sincerely doubt I'd ever use it. I'm just not training to use it and probably would forget.

What I do object to however is the the LCI being used as part of a safety check - it has no business being used in any way to "ensure" a firearm is safe.

I also object to it being some sort of manadatory feature imposed by anti-gun politicians. It's either done by antis who don't know anything about firearms or it's done by antis who purposely want to throw up an impediment to gun ownership.

sigcurious · September 23, 2012, 02:04 PM

LCIs seem to come in a variety of forms, from a small hole viewing ports to bits that stick out. In some cases I would say its just cause they're plain ugly and obtrusive

In others like early Ruger MK IIIs they actually posed a safety issue(the gun could fire if the LCI was struck). I do not know of any currently made LCIs that impair function or pose safety issues.

CDW4ME · September 23, 2012, 02:18 PM

My Glock has a LCI / bump on the extractor, I never pay any attention to it.
I have an older Glock with a flush fitting extractor and somehow

I manage to determine if it's loaded.

Technosavant · September 23, 2012, 03:31 PM

If you're too foolish to check the chamber in a traditional manner, you're quite possibly too foolish to check the LCI before doing something stupid.

All of the guns I own that have such things just have a simple cutout in the chamber hood- nice, unobtrusive, and it's easy to tell if there's a round in there... it's no easier than doing a press check, but whatever. The ones that require some kind of lever/bump/whatever to protrude seem to me to be overthinking things- just another collection of parts that serves no useful purpose. Sure, the one thing they may bring to the party is the ability to confirm a loaded chamber in the dark, but I've not found that to be a needed item- any guns I'd need in the dark I can tell you the chamber status of right this moment. If you wait until it's dark to check that status, you waited too long.

I wouldn't avoid a gun that had such a thing for this reason, but they just seem to be the answer to a question asked only by people who didn't know what they were talking about in the first place.

K_Mac · September 23, 2012, 03:54 PM

I have a Ruger SR9c with an LCI that will make some folks angry just reading this post. It is a very simple device that works well and does not impair the action of the pistol. And yes, I know the status of every weapon I own without looking, yet I still like that I can tell in the dark that I have one in the pipe without doing a visual check. I understand it is not for everyone, but that I like mine does not make me foolish, careless, or unknowing.

sigarms228 · September 23, 2012, 04:00 PM

In my case I really don't care with my SIG SP2022 other than the fact that I can't get a replacement barrel for it that will accomadate the LCI and would have to have a gunsmith or such modify it. But that is a concern that is a long way down the road and mucho dollars in ammo spent first.

481 · September 23, 2012, 04:06 PM

Done unobtrusively (like the HK and Glock LCIs), I have no problem with them.

Done in such a way that they effect the aesthetic of a gun (like the SIG 2022, XDs and Rugers to name a few) adversely, I won't buy the danged thing. Shame, too, since I would like to have a 2022.

Creeper · September 23, 2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Why the hate for LCI

Hate? I'm not aware of any hate for a passive, benign LCI... but as most will tell you, they are of little value to an experienced, civilian handgunner. If you use the golden rule that "all guns are always loaded all the time", and you personally follow that rule... then they are rather pointless.

There are law enforcement and military requirements where not having a round in the chamber is commonplace... in this instance, I can see where a LCI might be beneficial.

In "sigcurious" excellent photo example, that's a gun I would not consider buying solely for the "lawyer speak" printed on the slide. Pandering to the lowest common denominator may be popular these days, but guns that tell me to read the owners manual and which end is the dangerous one is just plain irritating.

C

LockedBreech · September 23, 2012, 04:19 PM

My favorite LCI type is on the M&P - clear view hole with no moving parts

Not that it matters much. All my guns are always loaded.

TennJed · September 23, 2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeper

Hate? I'm not aware of any hate for a passive, benign LCI... but as most will tell you, they are of little value to an experienced, civilian handgunner. If you use the golden rule that "all guns are always loaded all the time", and you personally follow that rule... then they are rather pointless.

There are law enforcement and military requirements where not having a round in the chamber is commonplace... in this instance, I can see where a LCI might be beneficial.

In "sigcurious" excellent photo example, that's a gun I would not consider buying solely for the "lawyer speak" printed on the slide. Pandering to the lowest common denominator may be popular these days, but guns that tell me to read the owners manual and which end is the dangerous one is just plain irritating.

C

Hate may be too strong a word, but there are people that will not buy a gun solely because of the LCI. That is what I am curious about

laytonj1 · September 23, 2012, 05:22 PM

Because it's ugly.
It stopped me from buying a new Ruger Mark III. I instead searched and bought a used Mark II because of it.
That said, I won't buy a S&W with the lock because I find it ugly also.

They are unnecessary parts that take away from the otherwise clean lines of the gun.

Jim

Creeper · September 23, 2012, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Hate may be too strong a word, but there are people that will not buy a gun solely because of the LCI. That is what I am curious about

Gotcha. They don't bother me one way or the other because most are mechanically nothing more than a visual or slightly tactile indicator that would not create a failure to feed or fire if it was to fail. When I'm looking at a new gun that has one, I do look to see how the LCI is designed to make sure that's the case.

It's the "lawyer-speak" printed all over a gun that puts me off right away. I'd put, what might be, an otherwise excellent gun back in a case if it's covered with warnings. As I said, "sigcurious" photo is a good example of this. I don't know what brand or model that gun is, but I won't be buying one.
One could say, "yeah, but maybe that warning can be removed"... then I say, "yeah, but now if you shoot someone, you may have incurred additional liability because you removed a manufacturers "permanently marked" warning".

Cheers,
C

rightside · September 23, 2012, 05:27 PM

I removed mine from my Ruger Mk111 because it was made of cheap plastic and ugly(to me) That wasn't enough to remove it, though. One day I had a stove pipe jam that could be directly tied to the LCI. Happened more than once.Dirt and grit had built up in the small recess it rides in. That was enough for me to remove it. I built a filler out of polished aluminum and fit it in the open recess. Looks great and no more jams. I think it was added mostly for lawyers, anyway. I also removed the magazine disconnect and installed a bushing to fill the space left . It interfered with the trigger pull unnecessarily. More lawyers! Much better weapon now.JMO

Palmetto-Pride · September 23, 2012, 06:22 PM

For some guns with LCIs they can be removed with a roll pin punch, but I really don't see the big deal either way. I have two XDMs that have them and they have never caused a problem nor can I see how they ever would.

arch308 · September 23, 2012, 06:48 PM

I don't like them for the same reason I don't like safeties on lever action rifles. They are a pointless add on that complicate the mechanism and ruin the looks of any firearm. If I really like the gun most LCIs won't stop me from buying it, unless it's really ugly. I live with the one on my Gen 3 G19 but don't pay any attention to it.
Maybe it's just me but I sure am tired of keeping the lawyers happy.

dstryr · September 23, 2012, 08:00 PM

Both of my FNP40s have useless LCIs. The indicator is flush on the right side when unloaded and should protrude and show red when loaded but neither do more than come out just enough to catch a finger nail on- far too little to see or feel with a fingertip.

I use a press check every time anyway so have all but forgotten they are there.

Dashunde · September 24, 2012, 08:33 AM

I've passed on several pistols because of the LCI. I particularly despise the obnoxious pop-up types used on the XD's and similar.
They're a distraction that my eye picks up when using the sights. They also mess up the looks of the gun for me in general.

Every gun should be considered loaded until proven otherwise by anyone who touches it - LCI's are completely pointless if the gun is handled properly.

Pilot · September 24, 2012, 08:38 AM

Quote:

I particularly despise the obnoxious pop-up types used on the XD's and similar.
They're a distraction that my eye picks up when using the sights. They also mess up the looks of the gun for me in general.

That's how I feel as well. I shot a friends Ruger SR9, and the damn LCI was like a big flag right in my line if site. HK, and Beretta does them by putting a little red paint on the extractor which you can't see when firing. Much better, IMHO.

Stressfire · September 24, 2012, 08:51 AM

Depends how it's done.

On a couple of mine, the LCI is a bit of red paint on the extractor that wore off pretty quick anyways - the extractor is already there, so no "extra" parts involved.

My 380 has a red tab that sticks out on the left side of the slide - totally out of the way, so not a PITA at all.

Useless? Yes, perhaps. But then again so are the "Read the manual" statements stamped into just about every gun on the market.

drail · September 24, 2012, 09:11 AM

A LCI is a device who's only purpose is so that a manufacturer can defend himself in a lawsuit filed by a person that is too dumb to handle a firearm. Cooper said it best - it is an attempt to solve a personnel problem by introducing a mechanical "solution". Total fail.

TunnelRat · September 24, 2012, 09:57 AM

Does a LCI make me angry like Hulk? No, I don't want to Hulk smash. Do I think it's needed? No. Why? Because Rule 1 tells me to "treat all firearms as if they were loaded". I don't need a LCI to make me handle firearms a certain way, I already do. Secondly, I know if my firearms are or aren't loaded. I can tell you at this minute how many rounds are in each magazine in my possession. I feel it's my responsibility to be able to do so. I don't remotely incorporate a LCI into my handling of a weapon.

bedbugbilly · September 24, 2012, 10:11 AM

Like most everybody else, I was brought up to check the chamber in the traditional way of checking - by looking and knowing whether it's loaded or not. As a result, I always check it that way. The two semi-autos that I have are both Rugers (SR9 and MK III) and to be perfectly honest, I really don't pay any attention to the LCI or really notice it. I'm not being "smart aleck" about it . . . I just always check in the manner I was taught and really don't even pay attention to them.

Folks might not like 'em . . . but I'm sure it's all part of the legal game along with internal locks, warnings heavily stamped on barrels and frames, etc. Common sense seems to have flown out the window and we all need to be "watched over" by the various legal and governmental bodies . . . unfortunately, it isn't going to get any better.

Grant D · September 24, 2012, 10:30 AM

I have a 1917 DWM Luger that has one,they are also on my Walther P-38's.
They don't bother me at all.
I don't think it was a lawyer thing back then.

September 23, 2012, 01:32 PM	#1
TennJed Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2010 Posts: 1,536	Why the hate for LCI Seems quite a few folks do not like loaded chamber indicators. Why is that? Do the LCI pose any potential function problems?

September 23, 2012, 01:47 PM	#2
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	I dont think they are a problem but more or less seen as pointless... If you have a weapon you should know if its loaded or not especially if its in your hand... In a ccw situation I just dont ever see where the indicator has even a moment of time to be used. __________________ Molon Labe

September 23, 2012, 02:18 PM	#5
CDW4ME Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 1,321	My Glock has a LCI / bump on the extractor, I never pay any attention to it. I have an older Glock with a flush fitting extractor and somehow I manage to determine if it's loaded. __________________ Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap. "Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

September 23, 2012, 03:54 PM	#7
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	I have a Ruger SR9c with an LCI that will make some folks angry just reading this post. It is a very simple device that works well and does not impair the action of the pistol. And yes, I know the status of every weapon I own without looking, yet I still like that I can tell in the dark that I have one in the pipe without doing a visual check. I understand it is not for everyone, but that I like mine does not make me foolish, careless, or unknowing. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

September 23, 2012, 04:06 PM	#9
481 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Posts: 540	Done unobtrusively (like the HK and Glock LCIs), I have no problem with them. Done in such a way that they effect the aesthetic of a gun (like the SIG 2022, XDs and Rugers to name a few) adversely, I won't buy the danged thing. Shame, too, since I would like to have a 2022. __________________ QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION

September 23, 2012, 01:56 PM	#3
Luger_carbine Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2012 Posts: 389	I have no problem with a LCI from the point of view that it is a tool that I can use if I wish - and it's better than pulling the slide back a bit to peek, IMO. Although I sincerely doubt I'd ever use it. I'm just not training to use it and probably would forget. What I do object to however is the the LCI being used as part of a safety check - it has no business being used in any way to "ensure" a firearm is safe. I also object to it being some sort of manadatory feature imposed by anti-gun politicians. It's either done by antis who don't know anything about firearms or it's done by antis who purposely want to throw up an impediment to gun ownership.

September 23, 2012, 02:04 PM	#4
sigcurious Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2011 Posts: 1,755	LCIs seem to come in a variety of forms, from a small hole viewing ports to bits that stick out. In some cases I would say its just cause they're plain ugly and obtrusive In others like early Ruger MK IIIs they actually posed a safety issue(the gun could fire if the LCI was struck). I do not know of any currently made LCIs that impair function or pose safety issues.

September 23, 2012, 03:31 PM	#6
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	If you're too foolish to check the chamber in a traditional manner, you're quite possibly too foolish to check the LCI before doing something stupid. All of the guns I own that have such things just have a simple cutout in the chamber hood- nice, unobtrusive, and it's easy to tell if there's a round in there... it's no easier than doing a press check, but whatever. The ones that require some kind of lever/bump/whatever to protrude seem to me to be overthinking things- just another collection of parts that serves no useful purpose. Sure, the one thing they may bring to the party is the ability to confirm a loaded chamber in the dark, but I've not found that to be a needed item- any guns I'd need in the dark I can tell you the chamber status of right this moment. If you wait until it's dark to check that status, you waited too long. I wouldn't avoid a gun that had such a thing for this reason, but they just seem to be the answer to a question asked only by people who didn't know what they were talking about in the first place.

September 23, 2012, 04:00 PM	#8
sigarms228 Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Posts: 1,766	In my case I really don't care with my SIG SP2022 other than the fact that I can't get a replacement barrel for it that will accomadate the LCI and would have to have a gunsmith or such modify it. But that is a concern that is a long way down the road and mucho dollars in ammo spent first.

September 23, 2012, 04:19 PM	#11
LockedBreech Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Location: Rocky Mountain West Posts: 3,395	My favorite LCI type is on the M&P - clear view hole with no moving parts Not that it matters much. All my guns are always loaded.

September 23, 2012, 05:22 PM	#13
laytonj1 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2005 Posts: 4,443	Because it's ugly. It stopped me from buying a new Ruger Mark III. I instead searched and bought a used Mark II because of it. That said, I won't buy a S&W with the lock because I find it ugly also. They are unnecessary parts that take away from the otherwise clean lines of the gun. Jim Last edited by laytonj1; September 23, 2012 at 06:38 PM. Reason: better english

September 23, 2012, 05:27 PM	#15
rightside Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 419	I removed mine from my Ruger Mk111 because it was made of cheap plastic and ugly(to me) That wasn't enough to remove it, though. One day I had a stove pipe jam that could be directly tied to the LCI. Happened more than once.Dirt and grit had built up in the small recess it rides in. That was enough for me to remove it. I built a filler out of polished aluminum and fit it in the open recess. Looks great and no more jams. I think it was added mostly for lawyers, anyway. I also removed the magazine disconnect and installed a bushing to fill the space left . It interfered with the trigger pull unnecessarily. More lawyers! Much better weapon now.JMO

September 23, 2012, 06:22 PM	#16
Palmetto-Pride Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 2,071	For some guns with LCIs they can be removed with a roll pin punch, but I really don't see the big deal either way. I have two XDMs that have them and they have never caused a problem nor can I see how they ever would. __________________ “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” -Margaret Thatcher-

September 23, 2012, 06:48 PM	#17
arch308 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2011 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 876	I don't like them for the same reason I don't like safeties on lever action rifles. They are a pointless add on that complicate the mechanism and ruin the looks of any firearm. If I really like the gun most LCIs won't stop me from buying it, unless it's really ugly. I live with the one on my Gen 3 G19 but don't pay any attention to it. Maybe it's just me but I sure am tired of keeping the lawyers happy.

September 23, 2012, 08:00 PM	#18
dstryr Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2012 Location: IA Posts: 132	Both of my FNP40s have useless LCIs. The indicator is flush on the right side when unloaded and should protrude and show red when loaded but neither do more than come out just enough to catch a finger nail on- far too little to see or feel with a fingertip. I use a press check every time anyway so have all but forgotten they are there. __________________ dstryr, since 1986. http://www.dstryr.com/

September 24, 2012, 08:33 AM	#19
Dashunde Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 2,018	I've passed on several pistols because of the LCI. I particularly despise the obnoxious pop-up types used on the XD's and similar. They're a distraction that my eye picks up when using the sights. They also mess up the looks of the gun for me in general. Every gun should be considered loaded until proven otherwise by anyone who touches it - LCI's are completely pointless if the gun is handled properly.

September 24, 2012, 08:51 AM	#21
Stressfire Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,497	Depends how it's done. On a couple of mine, the LCI is a bit of red paint on the extractor that wore off pretty quick anyways - the extractor is already there, so no "extra" parts involved. My 380 has a red tab that sticks out on the left side of the slide - totally out of the way, so not a PITA at all. Useless? Yes, perhaps. But then again so are the "Read the manual" statements stamped into just about every gun on the market. __________________ "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott

September 24, 2012, 09:11 AM	#22
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	A LCI is a device who's only purpose is so that a manufacturer can defend himself in a lawsuit filed by a person that is too dumb to handle a firearm. Cooper said it best - it is an attempt to solve a personnel problem by introducing a mechanical "solution". Total fail.

September 24, 2012, 09:57 AM	#23
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,214	Does a LCI make me angry like Hulk? No, I don't want to Hulk smash. Do I think it's needed? No. Why? Because Rule 1 tells me to "treat all firearms as if they were loaded". I don't need a LCI to make me handle firearms a certain way, I already do. Secondly, I know if my firearms are or aren't loaded. I can tell you at this minute how many rounds are in each magazine in my possession. I feel it's my responsibility to be able to do so. I don't remotely incorporate a LCI into my handling of a weapon. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness

September 24, 2012, 10:11 AM	#24
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Like most everybody else, I was brought up to check the chamber in the traditional way of checking - by looking and knowing whether it's loaded or not. As a result, I always check it that way. The two semi-autos that I have are both Rugers (SR9 and MK III) and to be perfectly honest, I really don't pay any attention to the LCI or really notice it. I'm not being "smart aleck" about it . . . I just always check in the manner I was taught and really don't even pay attention to them. Folks might not like 'em . . . but I'm sure it's all part of the legal game along with internal locks, warnings heavily stamped on barrels and frames, etc. Common sense seems to have flown out the window and we all need to be "watched over" by the various legal and governmental bodies . . . unfortunately, it isn't going to get any better. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

September 24, 2012, 10:30 AM	#25
Grant D Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2011 Location: Brazos County, Texas Posts: 1,038	I have a 1917 DWM Luger that has one,they are also on my Walther P-38's. They don't bother me at all. I don't think it was a lawyer thing back then.