Unregistered AK-47s brought back from Vietnam?

[FoxtrotRomeo]

Gee thats a 180 degree turn from saying that the "corrupt government can eat me for all I care"

I'm saying that if I want to see the 2nd Amendment followed to the letter AND enjoy it, there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. The wrong way is the "courthouse steps" thing. The right way is to elect the right people that will do what needs to be done through the checks and balances.

The problem is that the criminals have bunkered themselves into position of power to persecute those who wish to breathe free.

And don't make that kind of a statement either. I'm not the person you need to politically hang for "flip flop" statements. I don't have the luxury of a big wordy vocabulary or word usage to properly express how I feel so don't come after me, go after the wizards of words in Washington.

[ADB]

The problem is that the criminals have bunkered themselves into position of power to persecute those who wish to breathe free.

I have to say, hyperbole like that makes you sound pretty nutty.

[Skans]

I have to say, hyperbole like that makes you sound pretty nutty.

Blagojevich - extortion
Clinton - extortion / sexual harrassment/ exploitation
Gore - fraud
Claude Allen - shoplifting
Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie - lied to federal investigators and fraudulantly made political contributions using identity theft
Janet Reno - mass murder
Sandy Berger - caught stealing classified papaers.

Yeah - I think FoxtrotRomeo makes a valid point - the above are just "tip of the iceberg" examples.

[44 AMP]

IMHO, keep your mouth shut in such a case. And remember that no one operates that thing but you. And only use the dead last selection when you use it.

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, advocating someone violate Federal law (particularly on this internet forum) is a spectactularly stupid thing to do.

You could get tossed off the board, or worse, you just might be considered as conspiring to violate Fed firearms law. Sure, that's extreme, but we seem to be living in extreme times, especially concerning full auto firearms.

Currently, the law has NO provision allowing legal registration and ownership of "discovered" full auto guns. None. Period. The only legal option is surrendering the gun to the Feds. And, I would recommend do such through a lawyer, just to cya.

Advocating ANYTHING else (no matter how we all feel) is advocating violating the law, and that is not allowed here, period.

This is my only warning, next time anybody says "just toss it in the lake" or "shut up about it and keep it hidden", this one is done, and maybe the poster, as well!

Not Joking!

[tyme]

Originally Posted by M4Sherman

the best thing to do is strip the parts and torch the receiver

Originally Posted by Jim Keenan

Why not destroy it? Because that is a crime in itself, destroying evidence of a felony, which is the possession.

What if, instead of doing what M4Sherman suggests, you strip the receiver, do a lawyer-mediated hand-off of the illegal receiver and any other illegal components to the BATFE, then keep the rest. That avoids the whole destruction-of-evidence problem, doesn't it? At least then someone would benefit from the upper and other parts. Either you could build a new semi AK, or you could sell the parts.

I wonder though if there's legal precedent for arguing that destruction of an item which is illegal per-se cannot be considered destruction of evidence. I would expect case law on this in the area of drugs... who has been prosecuted for flushing drugs down the toilet (prior to a raid, not during...), and have those prosecutions stuck?

[ADB]

Blagojevich - extortion
Clinton - extortion / sexual harrassment/ exploitation
Gore - fraud
Claude Allen - shoplifting
Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie - lied to federal investigators and fraudulantly made political contributions using identity theft
Janet Reno - mass murder
Sandy Berger - caught stealing classified papaers.

Okay, completely leaving aside the fact that only half your list is remotely accurate... what's your point? That some people in politics commit crimes, and therefore there's an overarching massive conspiracy to oppress the public?

Again, the conspiracy theories make people sound like nuts.

[lamarw]

My unit captured a lot of AK's and a few SK's. No one was allowed to bring an AK home, but a few lucky guys got an SK after a paperwork approval process.

So, anyone who brought back an AK had to have done so illegally. I am not sure how they could have unless they had a good buddy with access to a military aircraft making flights back to the US from Nam. I guess anything is possible, and I guess some of the CIA might have done so.

[Don P]

If possible (can it be done) why not turn the long gun into a semi-auto from a full auto and keep it. Would this make the legal to own if converted?

[Wildalaska]

I wonder though if there's legal precedent for arguing that destruction of an item which is illegal per-se cannot be considered destruction of evidence.

Without looking it up, it may fall under Misprision of Felony under 18 USC 4.


WildlovethoseoldcrimesAlaska ™©2002-2010

[Stevie-Ray]

Many years ago, I was offered an M16 for $250. I asked if it was legally registered and of course the answer was no. Needless to say, I didn't want any part of it. Don't even know if the offer was real, but I doubted he'd offer up something he didn't have.

[44 AMP]

If possible (can it be done) why not turn the long gun into a semi-auto from a full auto and keep it. Would this make the legal to own if converted?

For many, many years, the ATF has operated under the premise that "once a machine gun, always a machine gun". The only exception was a gun that they declared legally "dewat".

So, as long as the receiver is intact and functional, no matter what parts are with it, it is a machine gun under the law.

Posessing the unregisterable, illegal gun long enough to "convert" it is a crime.

There is no legal way out. None. The instant you lay hands on the hypothetical full auto bringback AK, you are guilty of a crime. It CANNOT be made legal under existing law. The only option is immediate surrender to the Feds (or any other law agency), and hope they do not prosecute. They can legally prosecute you. And they can convict you. Usually, they will not prosecute, as your voluntary surrender (as soon as you know what it is) is taken as a show of good faith that you had no intent to break the law. Delay in surrendering the gun is usually taken as the opposite. And then, they are much more inclined to prosecute.

The 1986 Hughes Amendment closed the civilian Full auto registry. NO gun, no matter how rare or historically significant may be registered to a private individual after May 19th 1986. None.

There is a possibilty that a historically significant gun might be allowed to be registered to an agency or organization that already posesses the correct license, but only if the ATF approved it. And they are under to compunction to do so.

There was a case not too long ago where a WWII bomber was recovered from a lake, with its machine guns onboard. The museum that was recovering the plane wanted the guns, too (they were non functional after years under water) and the ATF fought them on it. I don't remember how it finally turned out, but I think the ATF allowed the museum to have the guns, but only after they were officially "dewatted". This case was, I believe, one govt sponsored group (museum) arguing with another (ATF), so a compromised was allowed. If it had been a private group or individual, I think the ATF would not have been so ....flexible.

In short, the hypothetical "discovered" bring back AK is a fed felony, just by its mere existance. ANYONE who posesses it is guilty. Even a licensed NFA collector cannot legally posess the gun, or register it.

A licensed NFA dealer might be able to register the gun, for future transfer ONLY to law enforcement agancies or the US govt (that registry is not closed), HOWEVER, posession of the AK, unregistered is still a crime, and no NFA dealer is likely to risk this Catch-22. I think the ATF would take a dim view of this, even if it was legally possible, and I'm not certain it is.

[Don P]

If possible (can it be done) why not turn the long gun into a semi-auto from a full auto and keep it. Would this make the legal to own if converted?
Yesterday 06:24 PM

44 AMP, thanks for the informative reply. I was until reading your reply totally ignorant about the ownership. you now gave me a little knowledge about this. Thanks for taking the time to explain. Don P.

[JT-AR-MG42]

Lamar,
I know what you mean on the bringbacks. Higher ups were really down on the AKs. A buddy who was a member of the yacht club over there told me that it was made REAL clear beforehand by the Captain (shipping out time) that anyone caught with an AK was going down hard.
Just think of how hard they would come down on the kids returning nowadays with anything, not just full autos. Leavenworth time most likely. Heck of a way to say thanks, huh?

I do know of two Chinese AKs brought back though. One was a Type 56 and the other was a Type 22? export model. Both were brought back by two different civilians (who did not know each other) working off ships servicing the war effort. The guys hid them onboard, made it home, and luckily believed the amnesty and got them registered.
The G.I. did not have that luxury.

JT

[amd6547]

Shortly after Saigon fell, I was attending community college, and there were quite a few Vietnam vets I became friends with. I heard several stories about AK's and other weapons having been smuggled home. It was not nearly so difficult to smuggle things from VietNam as it would be to smuggle things home from Afghanistan today. In fact, it is pretty well known that there were drug pipelines full of heroin, thai stick pot and opium coming to the US in those days using all manner of military transport. It would not have been too difficult to include a kalashnikov or two in those shipments...

[Musketeer]

Frankly I would not want to be anywhere near the thing. I see a crate, cosmoline and a deep, unmarked hole in its future.

[Young.Gun.612]

Can someone explain this "Hughes Amendment" to me?

[Tom Servo]

Can someone explain this "Hughes Amendment" to me?

The short version is here.

Basically, it was a ban on the transfer of any machine gun to a civilian, unless it was manufactured and registered prior to 1986. What that did was limit civilian ownership to a pre-existing, fixed pool of "pre-86" guns.

(You can guess what that did to the values of legal, transferrable machine guns.)

[armoredman]

Fed prison may be slightly better than the state pen, but it's still prison. No thanks, that thing is a flame waiting to burn someone to ashes. It needs to be turned in ASAP, if it exists.

[Musketeer]

I woud be terrified if I unwittingly acquired it. Living in NY where they are only too happy to make an example of anyone they can to show their zero tolerance for illegal weapons I would be worried about them coming after me. Yes, in this jurisdiction I fear the actions of local law enforcement and the DA in such matters and would rather not loose every penny and my freedom fighting it.

[Uncle Buck]

I was under the impression that one of the rules on this forum is not to promote illegal activity.

Telling anyone to keep quiet about an illegal firearm does promote an illegal activity.

The rifle needs to be turned in to the government. If you do not like it, write to your congressman/woman and complain and try to get the laws changed.

[NukemJim]

Mens reas which is the mental state during the commission of the crime.

Not being sarcastic, nasty or (IMHO) engaging in hyperbole but basicly in reality Mens Rea is frequently no longer required for criminal prosecution. This is not legal theory this is just the way American jurisprudence is evolving in the real world.

My understanding is that too many people would just claim that they did not know anything about that it was illegal.

Please not I did not say I like it, just that is the way the judical system is going.

NukemJim

[tyme]

I was under the impression that one of the rules on this forum is not to promote illegal activity.

Telling anyone to keep quiet about an illegal firearm does promote an illegal activity.

Also, you should drive no faster than the speed limit on highways, and people under the age of 21 should not drink alcohol except under supervision of their legal guardians.

I've seen no objections to the idea of turning in only the receiver and sear and trigger group through a lawyer, keeping the rest and building a legal semi-auto AK with the remaining parts. The receiver is always tainted; freely transferable parts that do not have any connection to full-auto functionality should be okay AFAIK, but then again I do not have all of the BATFE's silly power-tripping rules memorized.

Mens Rea for things like this entails whether you knew the firearm was there, not whether you knew it was illegal. (If you didn't know it was there then it's not constructively in your possession, but that kind of argument almost never flies because the courts hear all day every day that Joe Smith caught with illegal firearms/drugs/stolen-property didn't know it was there, it must have been their friend's, etc.)

[csmsss]

A friend of my dad's did three tours in Vietnam during the "exciting" years, in several different of the more exotic areas. During his time there, the units he worked with uncovered many hundreds, if not thousands, of AK-47's. I asked him once what happened with these weapons, and he told me that none were ever allowed to be kept by the troops. He did not know what happened to them, but it wasn't up to the combat troops or the commanders how to dispose of these weapons. Nagants, on the other hand....tons of them came back - along with Enfields and even a few Springfields he remembers seeing, along with all kinds of other semi-auto, never full-auto, weapons.

And when you think about it, this makes a lot of sense - how many "bringbacks" of MP-38/40's and StG-44's and the like came back from WWII? Extraordinarily few, considering the number of American soldiers fighting in Europe and the vast numbers of arms we captured.

[Wildalaska]

I've seen no objections to the idea of turning in only the receiver and sear and trigger group through a lawyer, keeping the rest and building a legal semi-auto AK with the remaining parts. The receiver is always tainted; freely transferable parts that do not have any connection to full-auto functionality should be okay AFAIK, but then again I do not have all of the BATFE's silly power-tripping rules memorized.

I wouldnt call proper law enforcement technique "power tripping".

Guns obtained by the BATF are fired and casings retained and compared. Not a bad idea, yes?

99% of the time they arent interested in prosecution.

Wildhellanakpartskitis$100Alaska ™©2002-2010

[alloy]

She shows it to a gun dealer, who offers her around $500 for it. Let's also assume that the gun dealer doesn't realize he's not buying a semi-auto knockoff.
When somebody buys the thing off the dealer and discovers that it's full auto

This thread has finally veered away from the Widow's culpability and into the end user's....for me me to finally ask.....could this hypothetical go this far?

Does the gun store have to run the firearm's numbers to buy the gun, and would the gun even be marked in english characters?
The idea that a foreign machine gun can enter the Federal Firearms system, and then make it thru thru another FFL sale, and not be flagged....?
I don't get it. That FFL is buying and selling machine guns. If I walk into a gun shop today and exit with a machine gun that I bought as a semi auto, I got problems and he isn't 100% the reason why?

Strange world.

99% of the time they arent interested in prosecution.

I would most likely take it back to the shop and deal with it right then and there and count on the common sense of the above...for all parties to have resolution and the chips can just fall where they fall. But I will not be leaving that shop again, with that gun. What's that old saying about light being the best disinfectant?