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February 10, 2017, 09:42 AM | #26 |
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Thread resurrection for clarification
I am of the opinion that this "Chicken Little" miss-interpretation was perpetrated by a feud between two different producers of cartridge conversion cylinders.
The term "modify" is loose and if applied in the manner you are saying it could include bluing, case hardening, engraving, et al. The actual verbiage of the federal law states "redesigned for using rimfire or Centerfire fixed ammunition". This does not say a modified frame as can be evidenced at the end of that section where it say's "which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof." Affixing a ring (whether solid, ported or gated) that precludes the use of the cap and ball cylinder and that allows the use of a bored through cylinder that is chambered for a rimfire or centerfire cartridge which is "commonly available through the normal courses of trade" is "Modifying" of the revolver into a firearm. Notice the term used is AFFIXING. This means one that is attached, not one that slides on and off. The capping relief as used on cap and ball revolvers has changed by model and type within the specific manufacture of each factory and CAN be modified or changed as needed. The mere presence of a "port" or a loading gate does not make a "firearm" out of a cap and ball pistol. Reference the 1873 SAA replicas built as cap and ball revolvers by both Pietta and Uberti. The "INTENT" of making a firearm by owning a conversion and the revolver "creates" a firearm much the same as having an AR pistol and a stock that fits it can be determined an SBR and that intent has been proven in the courts many times. If the conversion is with the revolver there is intent. Whatever you were told was Government over reach and it happens all the time. But porting a cap and ball revolvers does not a firearm make! |
February 10, 2017, 08:09 PM | #27 |
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Ordinarily, necro-threads are closed.
This is one of a handful of cases where new information to this 6½ year old thread, allows it to possibly continue. "Possibly" because someone may still have an interest. |
February 10, 2017, 08:26 PM | #28 | |
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Quote:
That gun was converted probably around 2012 (or so). I also don't know if the current instructions from Kirst include the same advisory. The Kenny Howell's (R&D) conversions all use a removable back plate that contains an individual firing pin for each cartridge. Those can't be loaded without removing the cylinder from the gun, so there's no need or reason to enlarge the loading relief. Last edited by Aguila Blanca; February 10, 2017 at 08:31 PM. |
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February 10, 2017, 09:27 PM | #29 | |
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Aguila
Your reply at the top of the thread was before 2012 and you said you did the install a couple years before that. Quote:
You even mistakenly say "there is no resaon to enlarge the loading relief" as though it is a loading relief when it is a BP pistol. It is actually a "capping" relief.....but I have no idea why. It appears you are arguing both sides of the OP's question? Walt and I had a burger at the Bluff Dale store last week and spoke about this thread, the spread of miss-information (and he named the source of the rumor that started all this in motion) and the lunacy that has ensued since that date. It is amazing how many people can take something out of context as a reason to prove they are right. Each and every year I have a new BATFE agent assigned to do my inspection and each and every time we have a discussion regarding this aspect of the law (since it is how I make a living) and not once have I been told that the things I mentioned in my first post were incorrect. I completely understand the thought process of erring to the safe and at my age I have had more than my share of court battles and Lawyers. But it is ridiculous for potential customers and fellow gun enthusiasts to be "scared" away from doing something that is legal by the "armchair experts".
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http://www.cartridgeconversion.com https://www.facebook.com/cartridgeconversion/ https://www.facebook.com/thuerconversion/ Last edited by hoof hearted; February 10, 2017 at 09:34 PM. |
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February 11, 2017, 07:22 AM | #30 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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February 11, 2017, 12:18 PM | #31 |
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The "statutory" language is posted above in the thread, repeatedly. BATFE codes are easy to search. I'm surprised that you have never heard of "constructive intent" but I invite you to do the google search. This is a pretty interesting tone you are taking with me in a public place. It almost appears you would rather err to the "interpretations" of others. Why do you feel the need to single me out? |
February 11, 2017, 12:49 PM | #32 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
Nonetheless, you claimed that Quote:
Quote:
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February 11, 2017, 01:09 PM | #33 | |
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Quote:
The instructions made no mention that removing the conversion cylinder from the firearm after opening up the capping relief into a loading relief would allow the gun to revert to black powder (or "antique") status. The statement in the instructions was clearly that it was the act of opening up the relief that made it into a "modern" firearm, NOT the installation of the conversion cylinder. It may indeed be that this information is incorrect. If it is incorrect, any misunderstanding is not the result of some "feud" between Walt Kirst and Kenny Howells. It is because Walt Kirst's instructions said what they said, and when the question was asked I passed along what I had read in his instructions. |
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February 11, 2017, 03:58 PM | #34 | |
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Quote:
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February 11, 2017, 04:02 PM | #35 |
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Aguila
Until you produce said "instructions" your "recollection" is nothing more than a recollection and you have already proven that you don't remember the date that you supposedly read this information, which may or may not have been factual, and could have possibly been conjecture on the author's part in order to avoid civil liability. |
February 11, 2017, 05:07 PM | #36 |
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The information was contemporaneous when I first posted it. It's easy for you to demand that I produce an instruction sheet that I read almost a decade ago, but we both know that's not likely to happen. I stand by what I wrote: the instructions said that opening up the capping port to allow loading cartridges made the firearm into a "modern" firearm. If you want to come right out and call me a liar, so be it.
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February 11, 2017, 05:09 PM | #37 | ||
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Quote:
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February 11, 2017, 06:19 PM | #38 |
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To my surprise, the owner of the Pietta Remington clone does still have the instructions for the conversion cylinder, and I was able to get photos.
I added the red underlining of the text. I think that supports what I've written pretty completely. Whether or not the information was correct is, perhaps, another matter. |
February 12, 2017, 05:10 AM | #39 | |||||
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Quote:
So if you refer to a statute (e. g., post 26), it's up to you to provide the citation to the statute so that we can review it in its primary source. If you refer to a particular concept or principle as being applicable (e.g., "constructive intent" in post 31), it's up to you to establish by citation to appropriate authority the existence, meaning, and applicability. If you refer to something being "proven in court" (e. g., post 26), it's up to you to cite the cases, or at least some cases, so that we can, among other things, review the primary source material and decide if we agree with your assessment.
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February 12, 2017, 02:53 PM | #40 | |
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Quote:
Based on this, I think it's not at all correct to blame the "miss-information" [sic] on a feud between two makers of conversion cylinders. The information ("miss-" or otherwise) came from Kirst's instructions. Has Kirst revised his instruction sheet since the one I saw was printed? I have no idea. Did he write that sentence in order to shield himself from potential liability? Again, I don't know but I have already suggested that might have been the case. His motive in writing it and disseminating it with his conversion cylinders isn't the point -- the point is that he did write it (or someone wrote it for him) and he did send it out with his conversion cylinders. Buyers of his product could be expected to think, especially since he had cited federal law in a preceding paragraph, that he knew what he was talking about and that they could/should accept what he wrote as factual and correct. Last edited by Aguila Blanca; February 12, 2017 at 04:52 PM. |
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February 15, 2017, 06:34 AM | #41 |
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This is the Law & Civil Rights forum. If there's a need to discuss this further, in a manner appropriate to this forum, then someone can start a new thread.
Cleaned up and closed.
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