The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 3, 2013, 08:59 PM   #1
mjes92
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: Land of 10,000 taxes
Posts: 211
True Blue = Law enforcement rounds?

Ramshot TRUE BLUE sales literature states:

Ramshot Powder TRUE BLUE is the perfect powder for classic calibers such as the 38 Special, 44 Special, and 45 Long Colt. TRUE BLUE works well with cast bullets and is also an excellent choice for 9mm law enforcement rounds.

What the heck is considered a 9mm law enforcement round??

I plan on using True Blue but that statement has me confused. What is the required criteria.
__________________
Dad !!! "It's only going to be perfect if you do it yourself." - my teenage daughter
Dad !!! "I'm not scared" My Cancer fighting daughter."
Cancer Sucks
NRA - Life Member

Last edited by mjes92; October 4, 2013 at 02:16 PM. Reason: True Blue
mjes92 is offline  
Old October 3, 2013, 11:18 PM   #2
Nick_C_S
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,512
This is a question for 57K if there ever was one. He'll answer in detail. It's late and he's in Texas. You'll most likely see his post in the morning
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself.
Life Member, National Rifle Association
Nick_C_S is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 02:21 AM   #3
JustSomeGuy
Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 49
Though TB is a pretty good powder with a wide range of uses in various calibers, I have not heard of "Law Enforcement Loads" referred to when using it. Now, Silhouette... that's a different matter as it is the clone of the original powder (WAP) used when the .40 S&W was invented, and is still my "go to" powder in that caliber as well as for upper mid-range to max loads in several other calibers of the "defense" variety.

57K certainly likes TB, but he likes Silhouette too, and for zippier loads Silhouette is generally preferred with a few exceptions like 357 Magnum perhaps. Still... if you are only buying one powder, True Blue would not be a bad one to have and is pretty much the "ball powder" Unique in that it has a very wide range of uses, though personally I still like Silhouette.
__________________
I, Procrastitron will destroy evil.... eventually.
JustSomeGuy is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 02:03 PM   #4
mjes92
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: Land of 10,000 taxes
Posts: 211
True Blue

57K,
You out there? My curiousity is getting the better of me. Hope to get your input.

Thanks guys
__________________
Dad !!! "It's only going to be perfect if you do it yourself." - my teenage daughter
Dad !!! "I'm not scared" My Cancer fighting daughter."
Cancer Sucks
NRA - Life Member
mjes92 is offline  
Old October 4, 2013, 07:14 PM   #5
rdmallory
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Location: Deltona FL
Posts: 953
It was the factory powder in the 5.7x28 round. A lot of steal shooters are using it. No Idea on the LEO powder though.
rdmallory is offline  
Old October 5, 2013, 12:22 PM   #6
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,161
A law enforcement round is any round law enforcement shoots.
In my 17 years as a L.E. officer, thats about the only logic I can come up with. An "L.E. only" round is usually a A.P. round that is designed to be fired from a handgun or sub-gun. There is a lot of l.e. only ammo out there for the fn5.7X28. There is some 9mm stuff that will penetrate level II vests. There is some .308 stuff that will defeat level IV ceramic. (Supposedly, I would have to see that to believe it.)
reynolds357 is offline  
Old October 5, 2013, 08:52 PM   #7
jonathon1289
Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2013
Location: Mid TN
Posts: 26
A bunch of LE uses Gold Dots, maybe a reference to loading them?
jonathon1289 is offline  
Old October 5, 2013, 09:23 PM   #8
kln4
Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 82
"A law enforcement round is any round law enforcement shoots"

So true. Some PD's have tight budgets and some have huge budgets. That pretty much dictates what LE's buy.
kln4 is offline  
Old October 5, 2013, 09:48 PM   #9
jepp2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 1,476
Quote:
What the heck is considered a 9mm law enforcement round??
The law enforcement ammo I have seen just has specific penetration and stopping power. Winchester has Ranger T Series link replaced the Black Talon line after it came under attack. Really not that different than ammo specifically listed as self defense rounds.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life member
jepp2 is offline  
Old October 5, 2013, 10:14 PM   #10
BuckRub
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,046
I guess they think it sounds impressive hoping more people will get hopped up about it.
BuckRub is offline  
Old October 6, 2013, 09:22 AM   #11
oldpapps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2011
Location: Middle America
Posts: 518
Mr. 92,

I suspect the reference as being "an excellent choice for 9mm law enforcement rounds", is only a marketing ploy. Most if not all big named ammunition providers use non-canister powders.

Back in the dark ages... when I started at the SO, I bought my weapon of choice and ammunition. In the mid 70's S&W came out with the original Model 59s and the SO worked a mass buy but each Deputy had to pay for his own. We had Deputies using everything from 'Super-Vels' to Finish made steel core stuff.
After I moved on to the PD, again I provided my choice of weapon and ammunition only it had to be a wheel gun. Later the City fathers bought weapons and ammunition with 'LEAA' money. They made rational selections, a 'MAGNUM' is a big bottle of bubbly wine and is scary. They bought S&W Model 67s and RP 125 grain JHPs. It could have been worse I guess. At the same time I carried a reciprocal commission with an adjoining town, the City Marshal carried a 'Haus' .22 single action! (I think his son shot squirrels with it down on Corp land by the river.)

So, just being used by a Law Enforcement Agency is not a big draw for me.

Enjoy,

OSOK
oldpapps is offline  
Old October 6, 2013, 09:35 AM   #12
BuckRub
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,046
Yes a marketing ploy
BuckRub is offline  
Old October 6, 2013, 09:42 AM   #13
BuckRub
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,046
My department (very small) gets LE ammo too. We walk into our sporting goods store and whatever's on the shelf is our LE round. Had to qualify not long ago and was given two different FMJs to qualify with. After that I was given a box of 180 grain HPs to use as duty ammo. We didn't even see if they would cycle or anything. Needless to say I just bring them home and put in ammo cabinet and carry what I know will work.
BuckRub is offline  
Old October 6, 2013, 01:22 PM   #14
Boomer58cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2013
Location: closer than you think
Posts: 967
"Law enforcement rounds"

That's just another one of those terms that gets thrown around like " assault rifle", "cop killer bullets", "high powered rifle", "hand cannon", "Street howitzer" or "bullet proof vest".

Generally those terms are either inaccurate or used improperly.

Marketing nonsense.

Boomer
__________________
The number one cause of death in the 20th century. 290,000,000 citizens were first disarmed and then murdered by their own governments. This number does not include those killed in war.
We're from the government, we're here to help

Last edited by Boomer58cal; October 6, 2013 at 01:23 PM. Reason: Can't spell
Boomer58cal is offline  
Old October 7, 2013, 03:39 PM   #15
57K
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2013
Location: Heart of Texas
Posts: 788
Looks like I'm late to the party! In Ramshot's earlier load guides they actually gave 9mm +P data for True Blue and since Silhouette = WAP, they just reprinted previous Winchester data for WAP. Both powders are used by IPSC shooters who load 9mm Major that's well beyond the level of +P and shouldn't be attempted unless you're using a custom pistol that will function with the much longer OACLs. I just mention this because both True Blue and Silhouette are used along with another of my old favorites 3N37 and it speaks for their pressure stability. In direct comparisons with handloads, Silhouette and 3N37 are so close in chargeweight and performance that there's really no need to spend extra for 3N37. I have had exceptional accuracy with True Blue in 9mm. I have worked up to charge levels that are somewhat higher than published data so I can't list the charge. SIERRA's data is warmer than Ramshot's and SPEER's may be warmer than SIERRA's. The loads are safe regardless of which powder you use. If you want to use a single powder for all the different handgun calibers you shoot, True Blue is the best on the market, IMO. For my defense loads that are pretty warm, I use Silhouette because it's chemically treated to have low flash and I get very good Standard Deviation numbers with the warm charges. True Blue isn't treated, but it is so dense and fine grained that low flash is one of it's characteristics. I just recently loaded some Montana Gold 124 gr. JHPs with True Blue that I haven't had the chance to test yet, and I'll chronograph them when I do. The load should be fairly equivelant to something like Win. WhiteBox 124 gr. NATO load.
57K is offline  
Old October 7, 2013, 04:04 PM   #16
Nick_C_S
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2013
Location: Idaho
Posts: 5,512
^^ So there you have it ^^
__________________
Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself.
Life Member, National Rifle Association
Nick_C_S is offline  
Old October 8, 2013, 03:10 PM   #17
mjes92
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: Land of 10,000 taxes
Posts: 211
Thanks

Thanks again Gentelmen. I gained more out of this thread than expected.

Now for the biggest challenge; Finding a pound of True Blue.
Next to impossible. But, I don't give up easy.

57K, we hope to see your range report soon.

Thanks again
__________________
Dad !!! "It's only going to be perfect if you do it yourself." - my teenage daughter
Dad !!! "I'm not scared" My Cancer fighting daughter."
Cancer Sucks
NRA - Life Member
mjes92 is offline  
Old October 8, 2013, 06:07 PM   #18
serf 'rett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2009
Location: Stuttgart, AR
Posts: 1,569
Quote:
...an excellent choice for 9mm law enforcement rounds.
Marketing ploy?

Back in the old days we called this a sales pitch. The inside pitch is to the law enforcement folks who are loading their own. The outside pitch is to everyone who wants to have the same stuff as law officers.
__________________
A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.
serf 'rett is offline  
Old October 8, 2013, 06:19 PM   #19
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,161
Any law enforcement officer who is carrying hand loaded ammo in his duty weapon is not very smart. Most departments wont even let Marksman Observers (snipers) use hand loaded ammo.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old October 8, 2013, 07:23 PM   #20
kln4
Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 82
Any law enforcement officer who is carrying hand loaded ammo in his duty weapon is not very smart. Most departments wont even let Marksman Observers (snipers) use hand loaded ammo.

That may be true with local LE, but not with one federal agency I know of. I shot with one of their agents for a couple of years. He built his own sniper rifle, It was a 7mm I believe, and all of his rounds were his own loads. I met him at the range I worked at. He would come out about once a week to test his loads. It was in April or June 2011 we went up to camp perry because he needed a 1000 yd range. At 800yds he blew out the center bullseye. At 1000, he had less than a 1" spread. (kind of made me and my m1a look pretty sick). I don't know which agency he worked for nor did I ask, but when they asked for our ID's I saw his ID and badge..

As far as city local LE I've shot a couple of their remington sniper rifles, which were pretty nice. But I wasn't very impressed with their shooting ability. About 4mths ago the city council shut their range down because the PO's were putting rounds into some of the surrounding occupied homes.
kln4 is offline  
Old October 8, 2013, 07:27 PM   #21
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 6,161
Notice, I said "most" departments.
It all depends on what you insurance company will allow. Feds dont have that to worry about. He set a world record at 1K that day.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old October 8, 2013, 07:50 PM   #22
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
Marketeers or Anti's monikers

"Assault Rifle"
"Law Enforcement Round"
"Semi-Automatic Machine Gun"
"AUTOMATIC"
"High Powered"
"High Capacity"
"Sniper Round"
"High Capacity Clip"
"Gun Show Loophole"
"Gun Control"
"Small Gun"
"High Caliber"
"Smart Gun"
"Gun Violence"
"Military Grade"
"Honest Politician"
__________________

Cave illos in guns et backhoes
TXAZ is offline  
Old October 8, 2013, 07:57 PM   #23
kln4
Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2013
Posts: 82
I never asked him much about his rifle The the thing I did notice was the sound. The best I can describe it is "crack", not like the sound from an M1 or M1a, I could always tell when he was shooting, it was that distinctive.
kln4 is offline  
Old October 9, 2013, 01:23 PM   #24
hcShooter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2013
Posts: 5
Law enforcement rounds marketing ploy, sort of like "mil-spec" (while I realize it is a legitimate specification, I bet the vast majority of civilians have no idea what those numbers are or what it really means).
hcShooter is offline  
Old October 9, 2013, 02:30 PM   #25
Boomer58cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2013
Location: closer than you think
Posts: 967
Quote:
"Assault Rifle" "Law Enforcement Round" "Semi-Automatic Machine Gun" "AUTOMATIC" "High Powered" "High Capacity" "Sniper Round" "High Capacity Clip" "Gun Show Loophole" "Gun Control" "Small Gun" "High Caliber" "Smart Gun" "Gun Violence" "Military Grade" "Honest Politician"
You forgot "military intelligence"

Boomer
__________________
The number one cause of death in the 20th century. 290,000,000 citizens were first disarmed and then murdered by their own governments. This number does not include those killed in war.
We're from the government, we're here to help
Boomer58cal is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12254 seconds with 10 queries