Min OAL question

[Dragon55]

I've been loading .40 sw in a Lee Challenger single stage press. I've been very careful....maybe too careful..... that's my question. So far I've loaded 300rds of 165gr round copper coated, 200rds 200g copper coated hp, 100 rds 150gr copper coated hp, 100 rds 135gr copper coated hp.
I get frustrated with bullet seating. This was true especially with the 135's. For instance, my target with these 135's was 1.15. However, no matter how careful and how consistent with pressure I still ranged from 1.07 to 1.27. This seems like way to much so I culled everything below 1.1 and repressed the long ones down to 1.15.
I have even went as far as to measure out 10 bullets that were exact as I could measure with a very good set of calipers (Starrett). Also the same with 10 brass. I made absolutely sure the die was good and tight. I loaded those 10 and still varied between 1.12 and 1.20. Dang it!
I'm charging at the low end of the recommendations for all these loads.
I've fiddled with the setting sometimes only turning it in maybe 15 degrees.
FWIW with all these loads I've only had 1 'stovepipe' and that was with one of the 200gr bullets. I loaded at 4.1gr Bullseye which I have now decided was too low. If I load any more 200gr I'll go to 4.2 or 4.3. (I likely won't load anymore 200gr since they were so far out of the pack at the range.)
Sorry about the long post but......
1. Am I holding OAL to a too tight tolerance?
2. Does the seating process just take more practice to become consistent?

I want to get good at this. Thoughts?

[Mtn Biker]

Something is way screwy. Are you sure you are reading your calipers correctly? The difference between 1.07" and 1.27" is huge! (200 thousands of an inch!) Thats getting close to a quarter of an inch. If that is true there must be something adjusted wrong.
Do you seat the bullet and crimp with the same die or use a seperate die to crimp?
If you seat and crimp at the same time you need to back off the main die body several full turns and simply adjust the seating depth screw until your bullet is set to the correct depth first. Then back of the bullet depth screw and adjust the main body down until you get the desired crimp. Lock the main body down in this position and with the cartridge all the way up in the die, adjust the bullet seating screw down until it touches the seated bullet and you should be all adjusted.
If you use a separate crimping die make sure you have the bullet seating die body backed of several turns and just leave it locked down in that position and only adjust the bullet seating screw.
Check on YouTube for some videos of the setup procedures.

VL

[Mr Odd Six]

1. Am I holding OAL to a too tight tolerance?

I like to sit right at .005-.010 off the lands

2. Does the seating process just take more practice to become consistent?

Seating is an art form. I walk mine in.

Every round I roll the die open a tad, drop the handle, then measure.

Next I turn it a tad closer, then measure. I do this until I get + or - .001

If I go too far, I pull the bullet, and resize the shell

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Seating is an art form. I walk mine in.

Every round I roll the die open a tad, drop the handle, then measure.

Next I turn it a tad closer, then measure. I do this until I get + or - .001

If I go too far, I pull the bullet, and resize the shell

You ARE meticulous. I do this for my .243 long range target rounds....but not pistol rounds. With pistol rounds, I have a tolerance of +/- .005 or so. Pretty much wherever they are seated...they stay. I measure maybe every 20th one off the press. But in the OPs case...something is wrong. Almost a quarter inch!?!? Sounds like your seating die is not set up properly...or you are not completing the ram stroke.

[Dragon55]

I CAN'T TYPE OR PROOFREAD WELL EITHER.

But thanx guys anyway. I was hoping it was a 'dead stop' thing but I guess I'll just have to practice more. BTW I have done the backing off the screw thing and turning in a little at a time.

[SL1]

I think 0.100" is still more variation than you should be getting with your seating set-up.

There are some possible problems with the way the seating punch contacts the bullets, but you did not give us any information in that area.

You did not say what type of bullets you are using. Are the soft lead, hard lead, plated or jacketed? What is the shape of the bullet nose?

You also did not say what type of seating punch you are using. Is it flat where it contacts the bullet, or is it conical or otherwise shaped to only touch the bullet out on the ogive where it is close to full diameter?

SL1

[Dragon55]

The bullet I had the most inconsistency with was the one I described as 135gr copper coated hp.... It is a Sierra brand 135GR.JHP on end of box.
The seating punch is actually concave. I actually had not disassembled it to look until you ask the question. I assume to fit over a round nose bullet. The shape of the bullet nose would be rounded except that it is a hollow point.
Do you think I may be slightly compressing the end and not actually pushing the bullet in deeper? When I get home I'm gonna check that out.

Should the shape of the end of the seating punch change when the end of the bullet shape changes?? I can understand how with the slits in the end of the hollow point that it would be easy to 'close the slots' to some degree.

Thanx for everyone's input.

[SL1]

A roundnose punch shape may be slighly changing the shape of a wide-cavity hollow-point, and that could change COL by as much as 0.100".

It is often necessary to change the punch shape to accommodate different bullet styles. There are a lot of potential problems. One poster a while ago had a punch that closely matched the taper of a spirepoint rifle bullet. If gripped the bullet enough to actually pull the bullet back out of the case when he pulled the case out of the die. More often, the punch marks the bullet or slightly collapses the lip of a hollow point.

The trick is to get a punchshape that pushes on a part of the bullet that is stong enough to take the force without deforming.

One trick has been to use hard wax or epoxy to make a cast of the bullet's nose on the end of a seating puch that doesn't fit. (Just remember to use plenty of oil of other parting agent on the bullet' snose when you make the cast.) The difficult part of making the cast is keeping the bullet axis REALLY aligned with the axis of the punch. If you don't do that well, you will be seating EVERY bullet out of alignment when you load cases.

That is the reason that I prefer to buy special punch shapes from the die manufacturer.

SL1

[bullspotter]

ive delt with this same issue with the 40S&W. Fist thing to look at is bullet tension in the case, take a case and size it only, see if you can push the bullet in, if it goes in easy by pushing it in with your fingers, either your bullets are to small or your die is not sizing the brass small enough. If you cannot push it in, take the case and put a light flair on it, then again see if you can push it in by hand, if you can, your expander/flair is to large and making the case to big. Measure it. My inner measurement on my sized case is about .417-.419. If the bullets are to tight to push in by hand, at this point, all should be ok, Next take the case and put it in the press, extend ram so case is up, now get the crimp seat die and take the seat stem out of it, and screw the die into the press and onto the case, you will feel when it starts to touch and press the flair out of the case, stop here.... now look at the case and make sure its still got some flair, if it dose, install the seat stem, and keep moving it in till you have your wanted oal. Now take the seat stem back out, and screw in the die a small amount at a time, untill the flair is all gone from the case, DONT OVER DO IT, if you crimp to much it will smash the bullet and the case, the case will rebound and the bullet will not, causing a lose bullet. Now with the case flair gone, extend the ram, and screw in the seat stem till its pressing on the bullet in the case, lock the die down and the seat stem, now try a 2nd case, im thinking you will need to move the seat stem down a tad more, but check it then readjust.



I think
1 your case may not be sized small enough
2 your flair is to big and making the case to big
3 your crimp/seat die is to far down, causing the case to get to tight before bullet is seated to chosen oal, causing it to kinda smash the bullet.
4 your stem cup may not match the bullet to good causing uncenterd pressure when seating the bullet, by the way I took my seat stem and put it in my trimmer and made it a flat top. but i dont reload and round nose bullets.
5 bullet dia is to small, or brass wall to thin.... and not getting good case tension. Poor case tension will not hold the bullet tight enough, and you will see inconsitant oal,

I persoanly seat and crimp with 2 steps, Ill seat and take almost all of the flar out, then pull my seat stem and set the die to take the rest of the flair out, the bullets dont even budge, and my oal is very very close on all of my 40 loads.

[Dragon55]

I'm gonna go through the steps you laid out BULLSPOTTER with some of the 200gr bullets I have. I actually have tried to push in a bullet before flaring and couldn't. I'm thinking #3 or #4 from your list are the likely culprits. Also, SL1 it seems both you guys are thinking that the conical shape of the end of the seat stem may have some 'squeezing' effect on the end of hollow point bullet. I've thought about this and it makes sense. The 150gr hp's and the 135 hp's from Sierra both have what I would call a very large cavity with several slits around the perimeter. I've shot 44mag for years and don't recall any of those hp's with this style of cavity.
Also, Bullspotter since it sounds like you've loaded .40 a lot I assume you've shot it a lot. At the risk of going off topic, what load have you had the best groups at 25yds with? This is actually the goal I'm working towards. I want to be good at reloading but that's only to develop the 'best' load for my particular pistol. (Taurus PT 100 5" barrell). When I determine what that is it's likely the only combination I'll load.
Thanx for your alls' help.

[bullspotter]

I havent really done alot of pistol shooting up till recently, Im now mostly running the MT gold 165 JHP bullets, in my 40. Most of the shooting i have been doing is in the 7-18 yard range, and havent really done any serious group testing with a rest yet, but I have no problems keeping them on a paper plate at 18 yards, if i aim like i should. last time out at 15 yards i was hitting 10 for 10 on a bigger coffie can, (3 or 5 lb i dont know) that really is all im asking of my gun (glock 22) at this point. Im using unique powder, ive loaded at 6.1 grains. up to 7, the 7 is a little on the hot side, no bad sighns of pressure or anything, but more recoil then i want to shoot all the time. Ive loaded some rainer 165 grain bullets also, they didnt seem to shoot near as good as the MT gold. so far ive loaded 1000 rainer, 2900 of the MT gold and 300 Gold dots, all 165 grain, The gold dot and MT shoot about the same, Im getting a 4 or so inch group at the 12 yard on a good weather day, Its been crappy weather here when i have time to go shoot, so i havent got to sit down and do a lot testing and grouping, just going out and getting some trigger time. But i am getting alot better. I also have a scoped 686 smith, and im getting great results with the 125 grain MT gold with unique powder out of it at 25 yards, this one i have had the chance to dial in a load. Im really impressed with the MT gold bullets, they look pretty good, all jacketed, and they really are on the ball with shipping ext, great people to deal with.

[Dragon55]

I'll be going to the range Sat to do some groups at 25yd, 15yd, and 7 yd.
I'll be shooting The 135 jhp's, 150 jhp's, 165 round nose, 200 jhp's. All charged at 1/3 to 1/2 max charge recommendation. It seems most folks shooting .40 wind up with the 165 jhp's but I'm gonna give it an actual test.
I went through this exercise with my .44 a few years ago and found that a 240gr max charged round was the most accurate/consistent. At the time I actually expected it would be something less such as 200gr but it wasn't.
Anyway, thanx for the info. and btw I checked a bunch of my brass. The OAL of the Winchester was almost all to spec. The CCI, Remington, Speer, were not. Needless to say I'll likely chuck those. I'm kinda thinking this contributed a lot to my oal problem since the 100 135's I loaded was a Duke's mixture.