Pocket Pistols - Newbie

[Kentucky1980]

First, let me apologize as I know this has been asked a million times. I'm experienced with rifles, but very little experience with hand guns.
Looking for a pocket pistol with these specifications (all information gleaned from reading - no practical experience)

NUMBER 1 - reliability
2. Least painful to shoot (i.e. recoil). Want to shoot 50 rounds without regretting my purchase so I become proficient with my weapon and look forward to practicing
3. Comfortable to carry for weight and bulk. Don't want gun print for shorts and t-shirt
4. short smooth pull, and around 5 lbs trigger
5. ambidextrous - I'm a southpaw
6. safety
7. don't care about double strike. Single, DAO, DA. I'm not adverse to single.
8. good grouping, yet I understand this would be use in self-defense at possible ten feet or less
9. laser? not in self-defense mode, but maybe to help INITIALLY in becoming more proficient in aiming
10. slide locks open on last round. locks open for cleaning
11. easy cleaning
12. allows custom grips, mods if desired. doubt i would want the extended mag for weight and added size
13. 380 and 9mm being considered. understand the benefits of 9mm for accuracy and power, 380 for smaller size

These are the pistols I am considering (in no particular order) based ONLY on a lot of reading. It would be great to have the opinions of folks with hands-on experience, and true knowledge:

Kimber Solo
Glock 42/43
Karh P380/CM9
Baretta Pico 380
Sig Sauer P238/938
Colt Mustant XSP
Kel-Tec PF9
S&W Shield
Ruger LCP

So, for instance, I went to a gun shop and they were sold out of the LCP, as it was extremely popular. Yet blog postings said your hand would be feeling it after 15 shots, and that it was NOT fun to shoot. And, maybe this is the way of all pistols I have listed above.

Some feedback I have received so far:

• Glock 43/42 for reliability
• Sig P238 finacky with ammo
• M&P BODYGUARD - Smith & Wesson
• Add to your list the Bersa Thunder 380 and the Walther PPK/s.

Thank you for your advice, patience, and putting up with this noobie!

Mark

[adamBomb]

I would get the LCP and be done with it. It doesn't meet all of your criteria but I am not sure any of those guns do. I fired 100 rounds of the LCP my first day and it was fine. My hand felt no different than if I fired any other gun I have. I do also like the bodyguard.

Also, I wouldn't consider a lot of those guns pocket pistols. I couldn't fit a glock 42 or P238 in any of my pockets.

[Kentucky1980]

Yes, I understand the LCP is very popular. Stupid question... does a pocket pistol literally mean it's meant to be kept in a pocket, or just very easy to conceal? The dealer I spoke with today had the sig holstered in his shorts.

[Roughedge]

I have most of whats on your list and my G43 is my EDC

[RoughDivider]

So the bodyguard is DAO and therefore has a long heavy pull. From what you've listed I'd probably go for an LCP. My gf has once and neither she nor I have an issue shooting 150+ out of it or my bodyguard. If it is an issue a buddy got the hogue handall for the LCP and it's super comfortable to shoot all day after what I experienced with it at the range.

[SpareMag]

Yes, I understand the LCP is very popular. Stupid question... does a pocket pistol literally mean it's meant to be kept in a pocket, or just very easy to conceal? The dealer I spoke with today had the sig holstered in his shorts.
__________________

Not at all a stupid question. "Pocket pistol" is a term now used to describe any of a range of very small, easily-concealed pistols. They CAN be carried in the pocket, as my KelTec P3AT is, in a pocket holster, but IWB holsters are readily available. Carry them as you wish. Ankle holsters are a very convenient option for the size, if you like ankle holsters.

[Kentucky1980]

Roughedge, I'm find a lot of fans for the G43. Probably the largest of all choices, but I have no doubt reliable, and least recoil. Actually G42 may have least recoil.
RoughDivider, also hearing good things about Bodyguard. I'm hearing mixed reviews on the LCP.
Thank you SpareMag for giving me another pistol to check out.

[michael t]

PF-9 has pretty good kick

P-32 KelTec , Colt Mustang , Bersa thunder 380 Metal or Plastic CC

Karh cw9 pretty easy on recoil . my 9mm Colt Commander a baby to shoot

Best try some before you decide.

[FITASC]

I own the LCP, the CM9, and a G26. The Ruger is great for gym shorts carry, the Kahr for cargo shorts pocket carry and the Glock needs a good holster

[Targa]

A Bodyguard and LCP are not what you are looking for if enjoyably running 50 rounds or so is a priority. In a .380 I would echo the Glock 42 and add a Berreta Cheetah (expensive though) a Bersa .380, a Sig P238 (also expensive).
9mm? Many, many, good choices for ccw out there if you can get over your desire for a safety. Safety is between your ears, other than that it is meant for long guns and single action only autos in my opinion....just my opinion remember.

[adamBomb]

Stupid question... does a pocket pistol literally mean it's meant to be kept in a pocket, or just very easy to conceal? The dealer I spoke with today had the sig holstered in his shorts.

I consider a pocket pistol to be anything that fits in my slacks, jeans, and short pockets easily without weighing them down. Its a gun I carry as a last resort when IWB carry wont work. When I IWB carry I have a glock 26. I could not carry the glock 42 or sig 238 in my pockets, they would require IWB carry and at that point I might as well just use my glock 26 with 10 rounds.

The real question is what do you want in this gun? If you are planning to carry in your pockets then get a true pocket sized pistol like the LCP/Bodyguard. If you are a huge guy and have huge pockets the glock 42 might be perfect, I mean my glock 26 can fit in my pockets but it weighs them down and prints. Its all about you and how you are going to carry.

A Bodyguard and LCP are not what you are looking for if enjoyably running 50 rounds or so is a priority.

I guess this varies by the person. I dont notice a difference between this and the glock 43. They are both snappy but very manageable. The glock 42 feels better than both. But if I want something fun for the range I would look at the glock 19.

[JWT]

The LCP fits easily in your pocket and is very light. The light weight makes it anything but fun to shoot. Recoil rather hard. Trying to put 50 practice rounds through it is painful.

I traded mine off toward a Colt Mustang. Also picked up a Kimber Micro Carry. Both are .380s that are fun to shoot, no recoil, and quite accurate. Worth considering.

[tirod]

You have a good list of features - they need to be sorted in order of importance.

Trigger pull - not only weight but length of pull is important, and choosing DA or SA which will require a thumb safety.
Sights
Slide lock ie last round hold open
recoil perception - and Browning link designs win hands down.

To get the overall weight and cost down it will be a polymer lower, as it trims about 4 ounces minimum from carry weight and at least $125 from the cost. Then trigger pull, most will be no less than 6 - six - pounds as that is the carry weight of triggers for tactical use - not range use. A carry gun is a tactical gun and you will be using it "in the field" under any sort of conditions, while moving, seeking cover, and possibly even while grapping for it. It's not an application for a target range trigger pull.

Sights will need to be clear and distinctive, and if you want even better ones then they can't be integral with the slide. Some say it won't make a difference as the gun will be used close up but the range use is where it's telling. Trying to shoot a gun that works against you makes learning it and getting proficient a longer harder more ammo expensive process.

That's where the Browning link design comes in as they handle recoil far better and can be matched to reduce the snappy affect of recoil, preventing the gun from hitting the trigger finger or forcing a tight grip that's hard to maintain initially. They can also use a stiffer recoil spring to slow the slide down and make it more pleasant to shoot.

Which is where the slide hold open comes in - if you don't need to rack it every time you load it, against the stack pressure of the magazine being held down by the top round, it will get into action much easier and faster, especially when you need it. The mag slides in unimpeded, locks in place, the slide release is dropped, the round chambers, and you are ready to fire. A gun requiring the slide to be racked forces you to jam the slide in harder to lock it into place, if you fail the mag drops out when you rack the slide, and you are now standing there completely unarmed with nothing to return fire with.

All professional grade guns use a slide hold open for this reason.

The Kahr has had the best trigger by far since it's first model - 6 pounds and no longer a pull than a G19. You rack the slide once to load it, insert mag, drop the slide to chamber a round, and you are ready. The recoil is low enough that shooting a box of 50 is less difficult than shooting three mags thru the LCP - I've owned one and the early versions weren't pleasant.

Go actually dry fire triggers on the top two or three guns with the features listed in priority - the list is actually much shorter than it looks when you sort the features you need in their order of importance. When you get done it becomes a matter of why you would spend less - because that is what you will get, a lesser gun and one with some compromise to achieve a low price.

[SansSouci]

Personally, I have no use for pocket pistols. However, I understand that some hand gunners find them appealing.

I consider the 158 grain .38 Special LSWC +P or LSWCHP +P as absolute minimum for self-defense. And I don't much like the idea of having to save my life with a 5 or 6 shot revolver. Keep in mind that bad guys rarely do bad things alone. You can safely assume that bad guys, and here I'm talking LA-type bangers, have killed before. Bad guys think that killing good guys is a business activity. Most if not all bangers train. Many have military training, which makes them trained killers. That is why avoidance must always be your primary objective.

If you sense bad things are fixin' to commence, hightail it outta there. You can't run away fast enough from a bad guy who wants you dead.

At close range, unless a bag guy's CNS is hit, expect to take rounds. Taking rounds is always a bad idea. A bad guy with his heart shot out will live 8 seconds, far long enough to make a good guy room temperature.

Without a CNS hit, to get a bad guy to stop putting rounds on you will require reducing his blood pressure to zero. That means putting as many rounds on him as possible.

If you're buying a guy that might be used to save your life, buy the right tool for the job. How important is it to you to remain a taxpayer?

I'm not a 9MM guy, but I do see the advantage of 16 rounds. Not having to reload is a tactical advantage.

I never assume that a hollow point will expand. If it does, I'm happy. I'd rather have two holes than one. Through-and-through penetration lets a lot of blood out and a lot of air in. I like big calibers and heavy for caliber bullets. I go with momentum, not kinetic energy. I want an exit wound.

Were I to buy a small gun, it'd almost certainly be a Sig P-239 in .40 S&W or even better, a small .45 ACP.

I'd sure as hell would hate to be confronted by 4 LA-type bangers while being armed with a .380 Auto. Odds are I'd be autopsied the following morning. That's why I stay the heck outta bad guy territory.

A full-size 1911A1 ain't hard to conceal. With a good-quality holster and gun belt, it's an easy gun to conceal and carry. And you'd have arguably the best tool for saving your life.

I know that mileage varies, but that's how I see it.

Never forget that there is only one way of assuring surviving a gunfight: DON'T GET IN ONE!

Best of luck to you.

[Ruger45LC]

I have a G43 and an LCP Custom and I've had a CM9, CW380 and XDS 9mm and I've shot a Shield.

The XDS lineup is real nice, I've owned the 9mm, .40 and .45 versions and all shot well and recoil wasn't bad on any of them. The PM9/CM9 (and PM/CM40) are nice options, but I'd recommend the CM because they're not much different at all than the much pricier PM lineup. The Kahr trigger isn't bad, it's like a revolver double action pull and I just prefer something with a short reset which the Kahrs don't have.

(I'll insert this here...to me the XDS .40 and XDS .45 recoil about the same, same for PM/CM40. It's a little more than the 9mm versions but honestly it's not bad at all, it's not a night and day difference)

The CW380 is a surprisingly nice 380 but it's so small that I had a hard time keeping my thumb from touching the slide lock/take down lever which caused two things. One, it caused the slide not to lock back on the last round and two, it caused me to have to hold it strange in order to not cause the problem, which just felt awkward.

A lot of people like the Shield but I've never owned one, shot a mag through one at the range. It was okay, nothing stood out as bad but it didn't wow me either.

The LCP (get the Custom model as it has usable sights) is bare bones but it just works good and is very small. I wish the slide locked back on the last round, but for a $220 gun (at KyGunCo) it's hard to complain too much. Recoil of the LCP is minimal, I don't get how some claim it has a lot... it doesn't. My biggest gripe outside of not have a slide lock is that I really don't care for the 380 ACP.

The G43 is my favorite. Admittedly I like Glocks anyways but the trigger is perfect, short reset and about as crisp as you can get from a striker fired gun. I put a set of Ameriglo I-dot night sights on it and it shoots great. Recoil is easy and mine seems to particularly like 147gr. My only complaint about the G43 is that I'm pretty sure Glock could have made it a 7rd mag instead of 6rd, but it's not a deal breaker because I always carry an extra mag or two in the opposite pocket. I find I don't carry my LCP nearly as much with the G43 around.

[Kentucky1980]

I don't have the time nor the inclination to test every pocket pistol under the sun. Which is why I'm reading articles and gleaning information from forums. So this is where I am at...

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the idea of having a Glock 42/43. I'm average height and weight, so while they claim the 42 to be a pocket pistol, it probably is too big. Otherwise it would be perfect for me (380 or 9mm).

I'm crossing the LCP and Baretta Pico from my list. The Kimber Solo as well.
I have heard mixed reviews on the PF9, so that's off my list.

Nobody has mentioned the Colt Mustang XSP, but it's temporarily off my list.

The Shield is also a no go.

So the first two weapons I AM going to test in the field are the

• Karh P380/CM9
• Sig Sauer P238/938

The 380 is going to be easier to conceal and make it an every day carry, which is essential. I believe these two weapons will be reliable, fairly accurate, nice trigger action, more comfortable to shoot, and easy to service.

Again thanks for your thoughts and suggestions!

[James K]

The term "pocket pistol" was originally used for a pistol that would fit in an overcoat or suit coat pocket. Smaller pistols were called "vest pocket pistols", a term meaningless to a generation which knows nothing of vests. But vest pockets, intended for carrying a "pocket watch" were pretty small, and so were VP pistols which were usually .25 ACP (6.35mm) caliber. Today's small pistols often fall between the two sizes, being a bit larger than the old VP pistols, but smaller than the pocket pistols like the Colt Model 1903.

And in calibers like .380 ACP and 9x19 are more powerful than the old guns in .25 and .32 ACP.

Jim

[Kentucky1980]

Thank you for the derivation of "pocket pistol". The original meaning of many words and phrases get lost in time.

[seeker_two]

Have you tried the Ruger LC9? I carry one, and it works well in a belt holster and in a pocket.

[Targa]

So the first two weapons I AM going to test in the field are the
Karh P380/CM9
Sig Sauer P238/938

Four excellent firearms for conceal carry, just know that the first 2 do not have a manual safety. They have a fairly long but very smooth trigger pull, my CM9 consistantly breaks at 5 1/2 lbs. As for a trigger reset, their really isn't one, it isn't ready to fire again until the trigger is pretty much fully released.
The Sigs? Beautiful, sweet shooting guns but understand that they are single action only and for them to be useful as a conceal carry piece they need to be carried with a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked back and the safety engaged.

[tallball]

I don't expect one handgun or vehicle or pair of shoes to do everything I need it to do.

Something like an LCP is perfect for the very lightest clothing.

I like a snub 38 in my back pocket when I am walking the dog.

With heavier clothing I might bring along an LC9 or snub 44.

It's great to have options.

Oh, I very much prefer DAO with no safety. Murphy's Law is pretty clear that I will use a safety incorrectly in an emergency. I want a carry gun that is aim, squeeze, bang.

[Cheapshooter]

The "comfort" issue is subjective. I have no issues with running 100 rounds through my LCP in a range session. Reliabity has been absolutely 100%, and accuracy, for what it is, is plenty acceptable.
That being said, if re oil is and issue, you might consider stepping down to a 32acp like the Kel-Tec p32.
What ever you de ide,po ket pistol doesn't mean in a pocket alone. A good pocket holster will keep the gun oriented properly for a good draw, and protect the trigger from any unintended forces that might cause an unintended discharge.

[buckhorn_cortez]

I have a SIG P938 and a Glock 43. The Glock is not a pocket pistol, unless you're talking about cargo pockets or pockets in a carry vest.

I can put the P938 in a pocket holster and put it in the front pocket of my jeans. Normally, I carry the P938 in a clip-on belt holster as it's far more comfortable when driving a vehicle than having it in a front pocket.

The P938, equipped with Hogue rubber grips, has less felt recoil than the G43 as the rubber grips do a lot to reduce perceived recoil.

Although the P938 and P238 have an ambidextrous safety, the slide lock/release is still on the left side. For someone who is left handed, that is not the best ergonomic layout for the controls.

You can certainly get used to, and train to use the left side slide lock/release, but I'd look for a pistol that has ambidextrous slide release (if possible) as one of the features as that will make operating the gun easier for you.

[jreXD9]

I had a P238 but it wasn't dependable. I traded it straight up for a PM9, which is the same size-wise as the CM9 that I have now. Every Kahr I've had (6) has been utterly dependable. I ran 200 fmj's and 50 +p hp's thru the CM9 last week with zero issues. Recoil is not an issue. A grip sleeve is a must on a polymer Kahr due to the harsh surface. That was the first thing I added after getting this CM9. Dependability has to be #1 followed by accuracy.

[adamBomb]

I don't expect one handgun or vehicle or pair of shoes to do everything I need it to do.

Exactly. This is why when I hear someone say they want a pocket pistol that I suggest getting a really small gun like the keltec, bodyguard, or LCP. If concealability, lightweight, etc are a concern then get the small pocket mouse sized guns. If they want something with more power then step up to the 10-12 rounders like a glock 26/glock 19. The sig 238/glock 42 are in between a true pocket pistol and a compact sized gun. They wont fit in your pocket and wont really conceal better iwb than a glock 26.