Could you squeeze the trigger? - Page 2

Mikeyboy · November 21, 2005, 03:41 PM

Azredhawk hit it on the head. And here is more that you may not have been thinking of; you guys talking about moving on the guy to get a better shot...what if SWAT shows up and sees you with your CW out, you don't think they will take you out??? Or even worse you confuse the situation and you get a cop killed while they are trying to figure out who is the bad guy. Can you be certain this guy wasn't there to kill someone, and was about to leave , and you get in a gun battle with him and other men, women, and children die because you want to be a hero. If your alone (don't be hiding near a group of strangers), and your real close and he does not see you, and he is still randomly killing , you take the shot. If he is shooting at you or your family you take the shot. Everything else you leave to the police and SWAT.

P.S. Or leave it to Ninja Spacemanspiff.

azredhawk44 · November 21, 2005, 03:45 PM

+1 Mikeyboy.

In my home I pack the big heat and lots of it, and woe be to him (or her) that enters with evil intent. The .30 caliber rifle gods and .45 caliber pistol gods shall invite righteous thunder upon them.

But I'm not equipped to win when shopping at the mall over christmas. I'm only equipped to save my own bacon.

Musketeer · November 21, 2005, 04:10 PM

I think we need to break this apart a little more...

Nobody here seems to be advocating searching through the mall in an attempt to find the shooter. Even those who would engage said shooter seem to be of the opinion that they would do so only if their family was already going the other way to safety. I also do not see anyone saying they would choose to engage at long ranges or go toe to toe in the mall causeway.

I also do not think anyone here is advocating just going after some guy standing there with a gun. Perhaps he picked it up from the real criminal... I do think though that if we see someone with a rifle firing into a crowd of people it is fairly safe to assume he is not mall security.

Of course we all need to tak into account what we are carrying. I often am carrying a 5" 1911 in 10mm and a spare magazine. Some other times I am carrying a 2" 38 in a SmartCarry with two speed strips. If I had the 5" 1911 my options for engaging at any range beyond 10 feet are greatly improved.

There is one advantage we have as a CCW holder in such a situation, we are unexpected. Mall cops are unarmed and while the SWAT team showing up is a concern for a CCW holder with a gun out I think the chances of them being there in the first 5 - 10 minutes of the event are miniscule... (in 5-10 minutes this thing will either be over or I will be out of there) As an unexpected opponent we have a real advantage here. People are going to be running pell mell in every direction. The BG will be keeping an eye open for cops but as we can see from the one person who actually made physical contact with this guy it is often possible to even get within range for physical contact. I wouldn't do that but who knows where this guy was when it started...

BGs with a vest are certainly a concern. If your shots on the torso have no effet you have two choices, head or pelvis down. In a close range, encounter I drill for two to the torso and one to the head. In this case though I think at anything other than really close range I will shoot for the pelvis/upper legs. If he is at least crippled I figure I have done more than my part and will now attempt to exit stage right! Get out and let the cops know that he has on armor and is wounded, as well as give them an accurate description of who and what they are dealing with.

Facing a rifle with a handgun is certainly not good. Still, I would rather face a BG who has a rifle with my 1911 if I have the advantage of surprise and positionthan the other way around! If I cannot have surprise and position I am not engaging and that is that. This is no movie and I have absolutely no intention of fighting "fair." If I can put a couple rounds into his back too bad for him.

There was also a hostage situation here. Several people were stuck in a Sam Goody's with this nut job. I would ask this: If you were a hostage, saw the opportuinty and thought you could get away with it would you try to take him out or would you sit around and hope that negotiations worked?

Personally, as the man on the ground, if I saw some nut who had already shot multiple people I am going to assume his end goal is to ride the magic carpet to allah or the diety of his choice and take as many with him. If I see the opportunity I am going to shoot the guy, several times and until I am certain he is not going to stand up and re-engage anyone.

azredhawk44 · November 21, 2005, 04:44 PM

As a hostage I am killing him, first opening I get. .380 to the base of the neck within 5 feet when the opening comes.

But even with a full size handgun, Glock 21 or .44 revolver or whatever mammoth piece that some people find they can conceal somehow, I don't think anyone is going to give a good fight to this guy with anything short of an assault rifle.

We're talking mini-14, PLR-16, AR-15, M1a, AK, SKS... but your typical concealment piece (or any handgun) is not likely to be reliable in this regard.

There is NO COVER from an AK in a mall. It will go thru 6 walls before stopping. The plants in the corridors will not stop the bullets. Some of the support pillars in the Tacoma mall are very thick concrete, but they are very few and far between.

Nobody's "trusty 1911" is going to save the day in this mall. The BG has too much visibility and a huge range advantage on you. The main corridor is several hundred yards long and mostly unobstructed, IIRC. You WILL NOT get within handgun distance of a BG in this mall. You would be lucky to get a shot closer than 50 YARDS. And only one or two of those before he turns and gives you a couple of lead pills in return.

USP45usp · November 21, 2005, 04:58 PM

I've grown up in the past year (well, 6 months or so) so my answers have changed.

Right now my answer is:

I don't know. I would hope that I would do what was needed if the time came and it was a clean shot but until that time, I don't know.

But, I agree that family getting out is priority #1.

Wayne

PS, I'm like Trip, I don't do malls and I hate the traffic. Internet shopping is the way to go

.

model 25 · November 21, 2005, 05:09 PM

I am no hero but I live by the old values Americans used to have. I will risk my neck for other people and if I get killed then it was for something good. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror and know that women and kids were being shot at or killed and me armed and doing nothing about it.

In my town of 50,000 there are no more than 7 cops on duty at any time. By the time they put together a Swat force anyone could kill dozens in a mall. To stand by and let that happen IMHO is a man not fit to carry a weapon.

If you want to depend on the police for your protection then don't carry a gun. If you only carry a mouse gun that isn't serious for defense then why carry a gun? Just my 2 cents worth.

25

Mikeyboy · November 21, 2005, 05:10 PM

That is what I'm thinking, if I'm taken hostage, play scared and defenseless, and when he is not looking he gets a point blank shot to the head. Anything else will probably get you and others killed. With all due respect,there were two post here saying basically...My wife knows the drill, she is running out thru the back of the store and out the emergency exit, while I try to help. What if your wife falls and gets trampled??? What if it is a terrorist attack and another gunman is waiting at the exit for maximum cranage??? Your better off making sure your loved ones are safe.

Trip20 · November 21, 2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model_25

To stand by and let that happen IMHO is a man not fit to carry a weapon.

If you want to depend on the police for your protection then don't carry a gun.

model 25 · November 21, 2005, 05:37 PM

My wife knows the drill, she is running out thru the back of the store and out the emergency exit, while I try to help. What if your wife falls and gets trampled??? What if it is a terrorist attack and another gunman is waiting at the exit for maximum cranage??? Your better off making sure your loved ones are safe.

The difference in my view of family is that you make sure your family can use a gun too. My wife has had a CCW for over 20 years, went to a shooting school and is the perfect backup for me as she is unafraid to shoot anyone who would hurt her family.

My wife will not be trampled or killed by another gunman who is counting on a bunch of sheep running through the mall. She will either cover me or if my kid is there then they will seek a barricade cover and assume a firing position.

Self defense if you only think it's about you then you have failed your family because you can't be there to protect your loved ones 24 hours a day. Train your family, who better to watch your back?

25

donkee · November 21, 2005, 05:45 PM

Musketeer, the CCW holder killed in Tyler, TX was Mark Wilson.

http://www.defenseofothers.com/

I usually don't go to the mall unless I have to with the kids for school clothes shopping, etc. So I probably would heard the guys away from danger. If the perp was shooting at us though, get the kids and myself behind cover and engage the bad guy. I suppose if I saw the perp targeting kids or elderly people I would go after him, but who knows what any of us would really do. Hopefully though, none of us will ever see that day.......

model 25 · November 21, 2005, 05:46 PM

Trip20

How many times are the police there before someone gets killed? Like big government says you are on your own for the first 72 hours. Little government will be there to clean up after the shooting has stopped and the blame needs to be place.

A study of New Orleans showed the cops ran out of ammo during the fire fights. (page 24 American handgunner).

25

Trip20 · November 21, 2005, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model_25

Trip20

How many times are the police there before someone gets killed? Like big government says you are on your own for the first 72 hours. Little government will be there to clean up after the shooting has stopped and the blame needs to be place.

A study of New Orleans showed the cops ran out of ammo during the fire fights. (page 24 American handgunner).

Oh, I completely agree with you here.

What I don't agree with is asserting that someone is a "neutered man", or that they're not fit to carry a weapon if they're not willing to blindly submit to making headshots on an internet thread about taking down a guy with an AK-47.

When your talking about helping your fellow man and all that crap - I'm with you. But you lose me with the bs bravado about neutered men unfit to carry, leave the gun at home....blah blah blah. Makes no sense. Primary reason to carry is to protect yourself and loved ones. It does not automatically make you responsible for everyone in the mall.

Your probably a better shot than me. You've probably forgotten more about pistol shooting than I'll ever know. But don't be insulting and tell people to leave their piece at home if they're not comfortable playing Chuck Norris in Walker Texas Ranger.

model 25 · November 21, 2005, 06:34 PM

But don't be insulting and tell people to leave their piece at home if they're not comfortable playing Chuck Norris in Walker Texas Ranger.

If you are insulted by what you read on the internet then I mean no offense but your skin is very thin. In no place in any of my post did I mention a head shot, All I said is I would do "something"

It is not "bravado" to be willing to die for your fellow man and I see no need to explain what it is because if you don't have that much love and respect for the people you live around then you will never understand.

I was on a convoy hauling fuel to Taji in Iraq. We had National guard troops running the guns on the gun trucks when we ran into ambush. They did a round count of our troops after it was all over and one of the gunners had just hid in the truck and fired nothing. He had a fifty cal and didn't fire a shot.

Courage untested means nothing, we like to think we can fight back and some even carry weapons but it is the man behind the gun and if he is nuetered then he should leave the gun at home.

Again sorry if you are offended.

25

azredhawk44 · November 21, 2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

I was on a convoy hauling fuel to Taji in Iraq. We had National guard troops running the guns on the gun trucks when we ran into ambush. They did a round count of our troops after it was all over and one of the gunners had just hid in the truck and fired nothing. He had a fifty cal and didn't fire a shot.

Props to you for serving. Thank you.

It is too bad that some people find that they are intimidated or lacking in courage when put into the fire. To that soldier's defense, it could be that his particular bit of cover was getting shot all to hell and if he even showed his nose for a second he would have been popped. Maybe so, maybe not. I don't know because I wasn't there.

I do know that I have defended my family before, putting my own safety in jeopardy for my brother. I know it's not something I'll ever do lightly again, and only for people that really and truly mean something to me, that if I die, at least I counted for something.

A nutcase kid with an AK (which for some reason happens for senseless reasons every 2 years or so) is not a reason for me to die. I will defend myself as well as I can, and my family, but not all 20,000 people in the Tacoma Mall.

springmom · November 21, 2005, 07:05 PM

...and while it's easy to have lots of machismo (or in my case, machisma) sitting in my living room with my laptop on my lap, I would HOPE that caution would kick in if such a situation developed. I would, if possible, concentrate on getting people OUT rather than trying to get into a gun battle with the BG. That, too, is saving lives, and is far more in line with what might be possible than thinking I could take on the shooter.

My $.02

Springmom

azredhawk44 · November 21, 2005, 07:11 PM

machisma?!?!?!

Boy, doesn't that just destroy sex appeal for all women across the world...

Women dripping hairy machisma all over as they saunter about, flinging invectives to one another and pounding their chests...

Then again, a woman that can shoot is by default a 7 out of 10 before you even get to looks or brains...

model 25 · November 21, 2005, 07:16 PM

I do know that I have defended my family before, putting my own safety in jeopardy for my brother. I know it's not something I'll ever do lightly again, and only for people that really and truly mean something to me, that if I die, at least I counted for something.

I recognize that kind of thinking as the "heart" of the warrior. That feeling for your family used to be common for our country. Sadly that is no longer true, thousands of our neighbors are murdered and when we go to war half the country wants to cut and run before the job is done.

I just live in the old days and think in the old ways but I hope everyone realizes in no way am I doing anything but expressing my opinion of how I think men should be. Those days are long gone though.

25

axslingerW · November 21, 2005, 07:19 PM

I've been putting a little thought into this the last couple of days. I feel no responsibility to play hero. I will protect myself and my family, but I will leave the hero stuff to the proper authorities. Part of being a responsible person is knowing when to stay out of the way. My sw40ve and I are no match for a lunitic with an Ak47. To draw and fire at this person would be suicide. This does not mean I am a coward, It means that attempting to make long range shots with a pistol will not likely help, and will most likely make the situation worse. Its been said here before that the best weapon we have is between our ears, and this is the time to apply it. I'm a pretty good shot out to around 25 yards. An AK or AR is accurate to 800 meters. You manage to take him out with a concealable handgun, and all I can say is you're a better shot than I can even imagine being possible.

azredhawk44 · November 21, 2005, 07:23 PM

Actually, it will be interesting to see if the CCW holder will be prosecuted for carrying a firearm in the mall.

Every mall I have been into has a "no firearms allowed" posted on the micro-font regulations just inside each entrance. You are required to read that edition of "War and Peace" prior to entering and if you bring in contraband such as firearms or drugs, they can prosecute.

Obviously it's a silly rule in our opinions here, but it's a silly world we live in.

blackmind · November 21, 2005, 07:27 PM

In the immortal words of Napoleon Dynamite:

"Heck YES!"

-blackmind

model 25 · November 21, 2005, 07:28 PM

...and while it's easy to have lots of machismo (or in my case, machisma) sitting in my living room with my laptop on my lap, I would HOPE that caution would kick in if such a situation developed. I would, if possible, concentrate on getting people OUT rather than trying to get into a gun battle with the BG. That, too, is saving lives, and is far more in line with what might be possible than thinking I could take on the shooter.

Anyone who goes into a mall and starts butchering unarmed people is a coward, it's that simple. The 20 year old man that did this in Tacoma was afraid to die so if he would have met resistance he showed us he would hide and beg for his life. Sheild himself by hostages and surrender when a threat comes his way. Not much of a man thank God.

He tested his courage against a bunch of unarmed people but have you noticed that all these macho killers never attack the police. They always attack those unarmed. Society should shun any news media on these guys then lock them away for ever.

25

blackmind · November 21, 2005, 07:42 PM

If the question is, "Could you easily drop the hammer on a murderer who is in the process of conducting a killing spree?" my answer is an unmitigated YES. If I see the guy, and see that he is armed, and have witnessed the havoc he's creating, then yes, I believe I would not have second thoughts about killing him. I believe that witnessing someone shooting innocents would remove all doubt from my mind.

Whether I would do so in an actual real life situation would depend on whether I thought I would be able to survive specifically because of my shooting him. Also under consideration would be whether I thought I was really going to save lives.

Part of the utility of having a CCW is that if you are cornered in the back of a store with no way out, even if you cannot rescue others from certain murder without undue risk to them or you, you can at least hang back and IF the killer comes to where you are, you can hopefully surprise him with fire of your own and prevent him from ending your life. It's an unlucky circumstance, but it's definitely possible for it to be tactically impossible to head on out to meet him and confront him (especially not necessarily knowing if he's alone, or what he's armed with). If I could see it was some untrained-looking teen blasting away randomly in the front of a store, I might decide to take the shot on him, yes. If he's got a 30 round mag in a Mini-14, probably not. Whether I would hunt him out to stop the carnage or hang back and wait to see if he comes my way so I can stop him would depend on various factors.

But if we're talking about having COMPUNCTIONS about killing him, HELL no.

-blackmind

blackmind · November 21, 2005, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Actually, it will be interesting to see if the CCW holder will be prosecuted for carrying a firearm in the mall.

Every mall I have been into has a "no firearms allowed" posted on the micro-font regulations just inside each entrance. You are required to read that edition of "War and Peace" prior to entering and if you bring in contraband such as firearms or drugs, they can prosecute.

Obviously it's a silly rule in our opinions here, but it's a silly world we live in.

No, it is an OBJECTIVELY silly rule.

There is no need to stipulate, in some kind of leftist feelgood fashion, that, "It may be a sensible rule to some people; that's their opinion..."

Either it is a rule that DOES SOMETHING in a real-world sense, or it DOES NOTHING in a real-world sense. This kind of rule is the latter kind.

And I have never seen such a sign at the entrance of a mall, as far as I can remember.

And I don't see how someone could be prosecuted for carrying there anyway, because a store policy is not law.

On what basis do you assert that "if you bring in contraband such as firearms or drugs, they can prosecute"?

-blackmind

azredhawk44 · November 21, 2005, 07:55 PM

Trespass, concealing a dangerous weapon, possibly even assault. It's not a store policy, it is a statement on private property.

it is private property you are on. Imagine if you told me I wasn't allowed to carry a gun in your home, but I did so anyways. it would steam you quite a bit, wouldn't it?

I agree that objective law is the only type of law that is valid, but property rights are also a function of objective, valid law.

Of course, my carrying of a weapon protects MY property and safety, so now we're getting very grey and muddy waters here.

Look at the sign right next to the breezeway doors. The anchor stores typically don't post this stuff, only the main mall entrances.

DonR101395 · November 21, 2005, 08:00 PM

Not trying to start an argument or flame anyone here, but I saw some wishy washy answers. IMHO if you are carrying CCW and have not made up your mind to get training, regular practice and have doubts about your capability or ability to take a human life; you should probably re-evaluate carrying a weapon until there is no doubt in your mind. Nobody knows how they will react in a situation, but if you stumble into a situation doubting yourself that may be the last doubt you have.

November 21, 2005, 07:05 PM	#40
springmom Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Houston area Posts: 1,823	azredhawk is correct ...and while it's easy to have lots of machismo (or in my case, machisma) sitting in my living room with my laptop on my lap, I would HOPE that caution would kick in if such a situation developed. I would, if possible, concentrate on getting people OUT rather than trying to get into a gun battle with the BG. That, too, is saving lives, and is far more in line with what might be possible than thinking I could take on the shooter. My $.02 Springmom __________________ I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun

November 21, 2005, 03:41 PM	#26
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	Azredhawk hit it on the head. And here is more that you may not have been thinking of; you guys talking about moving on the guy to get a better shot...what if SWAT shows up and sees you with your CW out, you don't think they will take you out??? Or even worse you confuse the situation and you get a cop killed while they are trying to figure out who is the bad guy. Can you be certain this guy wasn't there to kill someone, and was about to leave , and you get in a gun battle with him and other men, women, and children die because you want to be a hero. If your alone (don't be hiding near a group of strangers), and your real close and he does not see you, and he is still randomly killing , you take the shot. If he is shooting at you or your family you take the shot. Everything else you leave to the police and SWAT. P.S. Or leave it to Ninja Spacemanspiff.

November 21, 2005, 03:45 PM	#27
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	+1 Mikeyboy. In my home I pack the big heat and lots of it, and woe be to him (or her) that enters with evil intent. The .30 caliber rifle gods and .45 caliber pistol gods shall invite righteous thunder upon them. But I'm not equipped to win when shopping at the mall over christmas. I'm only equipped to save my own bacon.

November 21, 2005, 04:10 PM	#28
Musketeer Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 3,733	I think we need to break this apart a little more... Nobody here seems to be advocating searching through the mall in an attempt to find the shooter. Even those who would engage said shooter seem to be of the opinion that they would do so only if their family was already going the other way to safety. I also do not see anyone saying they would choose to engage at long ranges or go toe to toe in the mall causeway. I also do not think anyone here is advocating just going after some guy standing there with a gun. Perhaps he picked it up from the real criminal... I do think though that if we see someone with a rifle firing into a crowd of people it is fairly safe to assume he is not mall security. Of course we all need to tak into account what we are carrying. I often am carrying a 5" 1911 in 10mm and a spare magazine. Some other times I am carrying a 2" 38 in a SmartCarry with two speed strips. If I had the 5" 1911 my options for engaging at any range beyond 10 feet are greatly improved. There is one advantage we have as a CCW holder in such a situation, we are unexpected. Mall cops are unarmed and while the SWAT team showing up is a concern for a CCW holder with a gun out I think the chances of them being there in the first 5 - 10 minutes of the event are miniscule... (in 5-10 minutes this thing will either be over or I will be out of there) As an unexpected opponent we have a real advantage here. People are going to be running pell mell in every direction. The BG will be keeping an eye open for cops but as we can see from the one person who actually made physical contact with this guy it is often possible to even get within range for physical contact. I wouldn't do that but who knows where this guy was when it started... BGs with a vest are certainly a concern. If your shots on the torso have no effet you have two choices, head or pelvis down. In a close range, encounter I drill for two to the torso and one to the head. In this case though I think at anything other than really close range I will shoot for the pelvis/upper legs. If he is at least crippled I figure I have done more than my part and will now attempt to exit stage right! Get out and let the cops know that he has on armor and is wounded, as well as give them an accurate description of who and what they are dealing with. Facing a rifle with a handgun is certainly not good. Still, I would rather face a BG who has a rifle with my 1911 if I have the advantage of surprise and positionthan the other way around! If I cannot have surprise and position I am not engaging and that is that. This is no movie and I have absolutely no intention of fighting "fair." If I can put a couple rounds into his back too bad for him. There was also a hostage situation here. Several people were stuck in a Sam Goody's with this nut job. I would ask this: If you were a hostage, saw the opportuinty and thought you could get away with it would you try to take him out or would you sit around and hope that negotiations worked? Personally, as the man on the ground, if I saw some nut who had already shot multiple people I am going to assume his end goal is to ride the magic carpet to allah or the diety of his choice and take as many with him. If I see the opportunity I am going to shoot the guy, several times and until I am certain he is not going to stand up and re-engage anyone.

November 21, 2005, 04:44 PM	#29
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	As a hostage I am killing him, first opening I get. .380 to the base of the neck within 5 feet when the opening comes. But even with a full size handgun, Glock 21 or .44 revolver or whatever mammoth piece that some people find they can conceal somehow, I don't think anyone is going to give a good fight to this guy with anything short of an assault rifle. We're talking mini-14, PLR-16, AR-15, M1a, AK, SKS... but your typical concealment piece (or any handgun) is not likely to be reliable in this regard. There is NO COVER from an AK in a mall. It will go thru 6 walls before stopping. The plants in the corridors will not stop the bullets. Some of the support pillars in the Tacoma mall are very thick concrete, but they are very few and far between. Nobody's "trusty 1911" is going to save the day in this mall. The BG has too much visibility and a huge range advantage on you. The main corridor is several hundred yards long and mostly unobstructed, IIRC. You WILL NOT get within handgun distance of a BG in this mall. You would be lucky to get a shot closer than 50 YARDS. And only one or two of those before he turns and gives you a couple of lead pills in return.

November 21, 2005, 04:58 PM	#30
USP45usp Junior member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,427	I've grown up in the past year (well, 6 months or so) so my answers have changed. Right now my answer is: I don't know. I would hope that I would do what was needed if the time came and it was a clean shot but until that time, I don't know. But, I agree that family getting out is priority #1. Wayne PS, I'm like Trip, I don't do malls and I hate the traffic. Internet shopping is the way to go .

November 21, 2005, 05:09 PM	#31
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	I am no hero but I live by the old values Americans used to have. I will risk my neck for other people and if I get killed then it was for something good. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror and know that women and kids were being shot at or killed and me armed and doing nothing about it. In my town of 50,000 there are no more than 7 cops on duty at any time. By the time they put together a Swat force anyone could kill dozens in a mall. To stand by and let that happen IMHO is a man not fit to carry a weapon. If you want to depend on the police for your protection then don't carry a gun. If you only carry a mouse gun that isn't serious for defense then why carry a gun? Just my 2 cents worth. 25

November 21, 2005, 05:10 PM	#32
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	That is what I'm thinking, if I'm taken hostage, play scared and defenseless, and when he is not looking he gets a point blank shot to the head. Anything else will probably get you and others killed. With all due respect,there were two post here saying basically...My wife knows the drill, she is running out thru the back of the store and out the emergency exit, while I try to help. What if your wife falls and gets trampled??? What if it is a terrorist attack and another gunman is waiting at the exit for maximum cranage??? Your better off making sure your loved ones are safe.

November 21, 2005, 05:37 PM	#34
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	My wife knows the drill, she is running out thru the back of the store and out the emergency exit, while I try to help. What if your wife falls and gets trampled??? What if it is a terrorist attack and another gunman is waiting at the exit for maximum cranage??? Your better off making sure your loved ones are safe. The difference in my view of family is that you make sure your family can use a gun too. My wife has had a CCW for over 20 years, went to a shooting school and is the perfect backup for me as she is unafraid to shoot anyone who would hurt her family. My wife will not be trampled or killed by another gunman who is counting on a bunch of sheep running through the mall. She will either cover me or if my kid is there then they will seek a barricade cover and assume a firing position. Self defense if you only think it's about you then you have failed your family because you can't be there to protect your loved ones 24 hours a day. Train your family, who better to watch your back? 25

November 21, 2005, 05:45 PM	#35
donkee Junior member Join Date: November 7, 2004 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 449	Musketeer, the CCW holder killed in Tyler, TX was Mark Wilson. http://www.defenseofothers.com/ I usually don't go to the mall unless I have to with the kids for school clothes shopping, etc. So I probably would heard the guys away from danger. If the perp was shooting at us though, get the kids and myself behind cover and engage the bad guy. I suppose if I saw the perp targeting kids or elderly people I would go after him, but who knows what any of us would really do. Hopefully though, none of us will ever see that day.......

November 21, 2005, 05:46 PM	#36
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	Trip20 How many times are the police there before someone gets killed? Like big government says you are on your own for the first 72 hours. Little government will be there to clean up after the shooting has stopped and the blame needs to be place. A study of New Orleans showed the cops ran out of ammo during the fire fights. (page 24 American handgunner). 25

November 21, 2005, 06:34 PM	#38
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	But don't be insulting and tell people to leave their piece at home if they're not comfortable playing Chuck Norris in Walker Texas Ranger. If you are insulted by what you read on the internet then I mean no offense but your skin is very thin. In no place in any of my post did I mention a head shot, All I said is I would do "something" It is not "bravado" to be willing to die for your fellow man and I see no need to explain what it is because if you don't have that much love and respect for the people you live around then you will never understand. I was on a convoy hauling fuel to Taji in Iraq. We had National guard troops running the guns on the gun trucks when we ran into ambush. They did a round count of our troops after it was all over and one of the gunners had just hid in the truck and fired nothing. He had a fifty cal and didn't fire a shot. Courage untested means nothing, we like to think we can fight back and some even carry weapons but it is the man behind the gun and if he is nuetered then he should leave the gun at home. Again sorry if you are offended. 25

November 21, 2005, 07:11 PM	#41
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	machisma?!?!?! Boy, doesn't that just destroy sex appeal for all women across the world... Women dripping hairy machisma all over as they saunter about, flinging invectives to one another and pounding their chests... Then again, a woman that can shoot is by default a 7 out of 10 before you even get to looks or brains...

November 21, 2005, 07:16 PM	#42
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	I do know that I have defended my family before, putting my own safety in jeopardy for my brother. I know it's not something I'll ever do lightly again, and only for people that really and truly mean something to me, that if I die, at least I counted for something. I recognize that kind of thinking as the "heart" of the warrior. That feeling for your family used to be common for our country. Sadly that is no longer true, thousands of our neighbors are murdered and when we go to war half the country wants to cut and run before the job is done. I just live in the old days and think in the old ways but I hope everyone realizes in no way am I doing anything but expressing my opinion of how I think men should be. Those days are long gone though. 25

November 21, 2005, 07:19 PM	#43
axslingerW Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Location: St. louis Posts: 249	I've been putting a little thought into this the last couple of days. I feel no responsibility to play hero. I will protect myself and my family, but I will leave the hero stuff to the proper authorities. Part of being a responsible person is knowing when to stay out of the way. My sw40ve and I are no match for a lunitic with an Ak47. To draw and fire at this person would be suicide. This does not mean I am a coward, It means that attempting to make long range shots with a pistol will not likely help, and will most likely make the situation worse. Its been said here before that the best weapon we have is between our ears, and this is the time to apply it. I'm a pretty good shot out to around 25 yards. An AK or AR is accurate to 800 meters. You manage to take him out with a concealable handgun, and all I can say is you're a better shot than I can even imagine being possible.

November 21, 2005, 07:23 PM	#44
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	Actually, it will be interesting to see if the CCW holder will be prosecuted for carrying a firearm in the mall. Every mall I have been into has a "no firearms allowed" posted on the micro-font regulations just inside each entrance. You are required to read that edition of "War and Peace" prior to entering and if you bring in contraband such as firearms or drugs, they can prosecute. Obviously it's a silly rule in our opinions here, but it's a silly world we live in.

November 21, 2005, 07:27 PM	#45
blackmind Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	In the immortal words of Napoleon Dynamite: "Heck YES!" -blackmind

November 21, 2005, 07:28 PM	#46
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	...and while it's easy to have lots of machismo (or in my case, machisma) sitting in my living room with my laptop on my lap, I would HOPE that caution would kick in if such a situation developed. I would, if possible, concentrate on getting people OUT rather than trying to get into a gun battle with the BG. That, too, is saving lives, and is far more in line with what might be possible than thinking I could take on the shooter. Anyone who goes into a mall and starts butchering unarmed people is a coward, it's that simple. The 20 year old man that did this in Tacoma was afraid to die so if he would have met resistance he showed us he would hide and beg for his life. Sheild himself by hostages and surrender when a threat comes his way. Not much of a man thank God. He tested his courage against a bunch of unarmed people but have you noticed that all these macho killers never attack the police. They always attack those unarmed. Society should shun any news media on these guys then lock them away for ever. 25

November 21, 2005, 07:42 PM	#47
blackmind Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	If the question is, "Could you easily drop the hammer on a murderer who is in the process of conducting a killing spree?" my answer is an unmitigated YES. If I see the guy, and see that he is armed, and have witnessed the havoc he's creating, then yes, I believe I would not have second thoughts about killing him. I believe that witnessing someone shooting innocents would remove all doubt from my mind. Whether I would do so in an actual real life situation would depend on whether I thought I would be able to survive specifically because of my shooting him. Also under consideration would be whether I thought I was really going to save lives. Part of the utility of having a CCW is that if you are cornered in the back of a store with no way out, even if you cannot rescue others from certain murder without undue risk to them or you, you can at least hang back and IF the killer comes to where you are, you can hopefully surprise him with fire of your own and prevent him from ending your life. It's an unlucky circumstance, but it's definitely possible for it to be tactically impossible to head on out to meet him and confront him (especially not necessarily knowing if he's alone, or what he's armed with). If I could see it was some untrained-looking teen blasting away randomly in the front of a store, I might decide to take the shot on him, yes. If he's got a 30 round mag in a Mini-14, probably not. Whether I would hunt him out to stop the carnage or hang back and wait to see if he comes my way so I can stop him would depend on various factors. But if we're talking about having COMPUNCTIONS about killing him, HELL no. -blackmind

November 21, 2005, 07:55 PM	#49
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	Trespass, concealing a dangerous weapon, possibly even assault. It's not a store policy, it is a statement on private property. it is private property you are on. Imagine if you told me I wasn't allowed to carry a gun in your home, but I did so anyways. it would steam you quite a bit, wouldn't it? I agree that objective law is the only type of law that is valid, but property rights are also a function of objective, valid law. Of course, my carrying of a weapon protects MY property and safety, so now we're getting very grey and muddy waters here. Look at the sign right next to the breezeway doors. The anchor stores typically don't post this stuff, only the main mall entrances.

November 21, 2005, 08:00 PM	#50
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	Not trying to start an argument or flame anyone here, but I saw some wishy washy answers. IMHO if you are carrying CCW and have not made up your mind to get training, regular practice and have doubts about your capability or ability to take a human life; you should probably re-evaluate carrying a weapon until there is no doubt in your mind. Nobody knows how they will react in a situation, but if you stumble into a situation doubting yourself that may be the last doubt you have.