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Old November 19, 2017, 09:56 PM   #1
jski
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Weatherby magnum cartridge headspacing ... ?

All Weatherby magnum cartridges have belted cases. Are they headspaced on the belt or the case shoulder?
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Old November 19, 2017, 10:18 PM   #2
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Technically, belted cartridges headspace on the belt. Savvy reloaders headspace them on the shoulder.
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Old November 19, 2017, 10:20 PM   #3
jski
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As an engineer, the second most unforgivable sin is no-value-added complexity.

I say this because the most unforgivable sin is value-subtracted complexity.

I've read on many a long distance forums that belted cases compromise accuracy.

True?
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Old November 19, 2017, 10:24 PM   #4
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Not so. There are several long-range records that were set using rifles chambered for belted magnum cartridges. Mostly has to do with case stretch and load consistency.
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Old November 19, 2017, 10:49 PM   #5
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Ask yourself..
Do you really want to go up against someone at long range that has their chit in order, knowing that they are shooting a belted magnum?

Have seen many hunting rifles do 5-6 inch group at 1000 yards.
Emphases on hunting rifle.
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Old November 19, 2017, 11:06 PM   #6
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At best it's a no-value-added proposition. We added complexity and get nothing in return.
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Old November 20, 2017, 07:53 AM   #7
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I use "feel" to adjust headspace of reloaded WBY ammo. This results in spacing off some point at the front end of the case--exactly where is a minor question.
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Old November 20, 2017, 09:16 AM   #8
Don Fischer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jski View Post
As an engineer, the second most unforgivable sin is no-value-added complexity.

I say this because the most unforgivable sin is value-subtracted complexity.

I've read on many a long distance forums that belted cases compromise accuracy.

True?
As a non engineer, what are you talking about?
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Old November 20, 2017, 10:50 AM   #9
FITASC
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jski View Post
As an engineer, the second most unforgivable sin is no-value-added complexity.

I say this because the most unforgivable sin is value-subtracted complexity.

I've read on many a long distance forums that belted cases compromise accuracy.

True?
As a non engineer, what are you talking about?
An optimist will tell you the glass is half-full; the pessimist, half-empty; and the engineer will tell you the glass is twice the size it needs to be.
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Old November 20, 2017, 12:38 PM   #10
T. O'Heir
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Belted cases headspace on the belt. Headspace is a rifle manufacturing tolerance that cannot be changed by fiddling with the cartridge. Cartridges do not have headspace.
"...True?..." No. The case being belted or not has nothing to do with accuracy.
The engineer should be digging his holes and not be worrying about how big his glass is. If it weren't for technicians, the engineer wouldn't have a glass. snicker.
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Old November 20, 2017, 01:53 PM   #11
jski
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I have read many times that even Weatherby does not headspace on the belt, rather the case shoulder.

So again, as an engineer, why add something (the belt) that adds no value (has no purpose)?
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Old November 20, 2017, 02:55 PM   #12
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So again, as an engineer, why add something (the belt) that adds no value (has no purpose)?
Going back to the early 20th Century, the belt was invented to provide a means of headspacing a cartridge without a shoulder or with a minimal shoulder. Jump forward a few decades, and cartridge developers (wildcatters) saw this huge case just begging to be tampered with, and with such a large supply of cartridge cases, they pretty much ignored the belt. Had other large-capacity cases been developed? Yes, but they were harder to come by, being mainly European or obsolete by that time (both of which translated into "hard to get"). One of these cartridge developers was Roy Weatherby, a custom rifle builder with visions of grandeur, and he developed a whole line of cartridges based on the 375 H&H case necked and trimmed to various lengths, and named them all "magnum". No, he didn't coin the term, but he used it for every cartridge he developed, including the 224 Weatherby Magnum and the 240 Weatherby Magnum, which incidentally did not need the belts for headspacing. So, in the mind of the American consumer, magnum = belted case = super amazing special, and worth paying extra for (a fact not lost on Winchester and Remington). So, until the 1980s, at least in the USA, magnum meant it had to be belted.

As a bit of trivia, Charles Newton developed a magnum cartridge back in the late 1920s that had pretty much the same dimensions as the H&H case minus the belt. His company was a victim of the Great Depression (the first one, not the latest one).
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Old November 20, 2017, 05:15 PM   #13
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I feel a double radius shoulder is a far greater sin than the belt. That is a weatherby sin of the first order. The belt can be forgiven.


BTW, If I design a bridge that can take 200% overload you might argue that is 150% more complexity than needed. Redundant cables or posts. Belt and suspenders. What if the belt brakes. Cliches do not alwasy apply. The belt did make sense at one time. Although the belt has been a sore spot for many decades if not my entire adult life. But not necessarily for cliche reasons.

Inertia is part of the issue too. There is no way I am going to give up my 375H&H for a Ruger 375. I just dont give an ants fanny.

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Old November 21, 2017, 12:01 PM   #14
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I prefer Belted cases for hunting rifles. I have a very good reason. I learned to reload on belted magnums and probably reloaded 20 years before I ever loaded a non belted rifle case. My "good" reason is nostalgia. Belted cases can be every bit as accurate as their non belted equals. Reloading precision belted cases is time consuming. Most readers don't have a clue how to properly do it. A full length die does not do it right. A neck die does not do it right. A belt body die is essential. Running a properly adjusted full length die after the body die is also essential.
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Old November 21, 2017, 12:38 PM   #15
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I’m with Scorch. If the cartridge headspaces off the belt, when you reload it adjust to headspace off the shoulder. Less case stretch and longer case life. No reduction in performance and possibly an increase in accuracy.

Used to be if you brought out a magnum cartridge, you had to have a belt because all magnums had to be “belted magnums” to be considered magnums. That’s not true these days.
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