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View Poll Results: What do you believe will happen with the Hearing Protection Act | |||
It will pass this calendar year | 1 | 1.67% | |
It will pass within the next 12 months | 10 | 16.67% | |
Not dead but on life support | 38 | 63.33% | |
It's dead after the Steve Scaliese incident | 13 | 21.67% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll |
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August 29, 2017, 10:38 PM | #26 | ||
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The manufacturers/distributors/dealers will charge what the market will bear......that's capitalism. It will last until demand subsides.
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August 30, 2017, 11:43 AM | #27 | |||
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Glocks, with complex moving parts and rifled barrels (a feat in machining, BTW), currently cost less than almost all suppressors on the market. A crude but effective suppressor could be made with a welder, grinder, drill press, and less than $20.00 worth of steel. A Glock can not be made in a similar manner. The regulations do, in fact, inflate the price of suppressors by a good bit. Quote:
Last edited by 5whiskey; August 30, 2017 at 11:53 AM. |
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August 30, 2017, 04:26 PM | #28 | |||||||||||||
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The manufacturer decides what price point to charge for his silencers. The manufacturer takes the cost of labor, raw materials, equipment, etc into consideration and doesn't for one single second think about that tax stamp....because he doesn't collect that tax or remit it to the government. Like many, you confuse "price" with what a consumer pays in total. In fact not a single silencer manufacturer advertises their products with the $200 tax stamp cost included. Quote:
More buyers may mean more silencer manufacturers ....but that doesn't necessarily equal cheaper silencers. Cost of labor, materials and equipment won't go down if more manufacturers enter the market. More manufacturers also means greater demand for raw materials......and increasing the cost to manufacture. Quote:
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What you might see is manufacturers getting out of the business completely if handguns were added to the NFA. There are states (California for example) where the purchase of a firearm entails additional paperwork, fees, waiting periods etc. that are no less onerous than a Form 4...............yet Glock, Inc doesn't charge CA dealers any more than they do dealers in Texas. Quote:
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The actual retail price of any item is exactly what the manufacturer wishes to charge. It matters not one bit that it costs $87 to make and retails for $500........that's called capitalism. Don't like it don't buy it or buy a Hi Point. Quote:
If you think a market exists for a $20 "crude but effective suppressor"......go for it. How many do you think you will need to sell to cover your liability insurance? Your rent? Your utilities? Your employees dental plan? How much will it cost you to ship that $20 silencer? Good grief....if it's so easy a cave man could do it.........then do it and get back to us. Quote:
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August 30, 2017, 08:55 PM | #29 | ||
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As for the bold, selling 1000 units at a 100 dollar profit is the same as selling 100 at a 1000 dollar profit. I make the same money, but the consumer benefits from lower prices. That's my entire point. Quote:
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August 30, 2017, 09:43 PM | #30 | ||
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Again I'll ask.........Rebel Silencers makes a $99 rimfire silencer, yet has the same regulatory oversight as AAC, Silencerco, Q, Sig, Gemtech, etc.........why do you think those companies charge 2.5-5 times as much as Rebel? It's not regulations my friend. Please answer that. With your experience that should be easy.
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August 31, 2017, 09:25 AM | #31 | |||
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What I AM saying is that the market for suppressors is less than 10% than what the market is for a pistol. I would actually lay money down saying it's less than 2%, but 10% is a conservative estimate. Because the DEMAND is much more specialized (niche market), manufacturers are not producing a volume that allows economy of scale to influence prices. This DEMAND environment is artificially created by government regulation. Small manufacturers can still make money making suppressors one at a time with a very small mill, because they can charge $600.00+ for something that has less material cost than a cheap brake rotor. Were the DEMAND to increase and the market were to open up, companies could start affording to try and undercut one another. Why? Because they're selling 4 times the product, they can afford to make less money per unit. They will start aiming at market share by trying to undercut prices of other manufacturers. Small shops will have to lower prices, automate, and increase production or go out of business once they start losing market share. Quote:
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August 31, 2017, 09:47 AM | #32 | ||
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August 31, 2017, 05:25 PM | #33 | |
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Asserting that a $200 and delay are a market barrier should not be controversial. How the current government barrier distorts the market may not be entirely understood until it is removed. Of course, the barrier increases the cost of the transaction. That the dealer doesn't get the stamp cost doesn't mean that it isn't a cost of the transaction; that's pertinent to the buyer. That barrier also serves to screen out the most price sensitive buyers. The remaining ones are all people with at least a spare $200. That's a population more likely to tolerate $1000 suppressors. Remove that barrier and the buying population is both larger and different. It is unlikely that new producers wouldn't arise to address that larger and different demand. I believe there will always be a market for excellent suppressors made from exotic materials. However, that isn't the only kind of suppressor. $3 oil filters are repurposed as suppressors. Somehow oil filter manufacturers are able to cover their rent and utilities. Current suppressor buyers will have scant interest in a $3 suppressor that takes a year of waiting and a $200 stamp. A wider population might be quite happy to stop by Walmart to pick up a simple $50 item on the way to a range.
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August 31, 2017, 10:53 PM | #34 |
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Zukuphile there will always be a high end market. Even the high end market prices will come down a good bit though. Steel, or should I say the right kind of steel, is good enough for even heavy caliber suppressors. The problem. Is steel is heavier than other equally durable materials (titanium being one). So you could still have a reasonably priced durable suppressor, bit it will be heavy.
At any rate, you will still get many thousands of rounds out of a cheap aluminum suppressor on a pistol. It could easily be sold for 200 bucks, with the manufacturer making good money. At that price, most folks won't be upset if it only lasts half as long as the 600 dollar suppressors of our current time (600 plus tax stamp price actually...). Which brings up another point. Because buying a suppressor is such a pain, they are made to very well last, because if you have to replace it then you start your atf paperwork all over. If you could buy one like you could a glock, it wouldn't be a big deal to replace a 150 to 200 dollar can that was made a little cheaper. |
September 1, 2017, 07:45 AM | #35 |
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Bingo. Given the difficulty and expense in purchasing a suppressor, it makes sense to for them to be manufactured at an heirloom-grade quality.
If you could buy one stamp-free on a 4473 in 10 minutes, there would be a place for $50 rimfire suppressors and $100 pistol suppressors, even if they needed a new baffle stack (over the counter) in a few thousand rounds. Also, I don't think the HPA was seriously intended. I think it was intended to be symbolic only, as NFA reform is a nuclear hot potato. And that's really a shame. Turk's leaked white papers suggest that even the ATF would be willing to play nice. |
September 1, 2017, 09:24 PM | #36 | ||
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September 2, 2017, 02:27 AM | #37 |
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I feel it is a dead issue and MIGHT be half heartedly brought back up next year, with even less fanfare and chance of success.
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September 3, 2017, 02:21 PM | #38 |
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Silencers. Just another victim of prohibition.
Chance of being removed from NFA - "0". |
September 4, 2017, 01:06 AM | #39 |
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Of course it's a dead issue.
The Republicans don't need us, (our votes) until the mid term elections, and they aren't going to push it. Bills will get introduced, but when it comes to passing one, or even getting it to floor vote, expect nothing but lame excuses and little or no real action. We are in a very poor position, with one political party actively working against our rights, and the other being able to take our support essentially for granted, because, after all, where else are we gonna go?
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September 4, 2017, 08:10 AM | #40 |
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I do not think it will ever happen. The only experience the vast majority of people have with suppressors is from Hollywood movie "silencers." IMO there simply isn't enough advocacy to overcome resistance.
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September 4, 2017, 10:13 AM | #41 |
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Everyone thinks you screw your rifle together right before the crime.
Besides there's plenty of pro-2nd pro-gun types that think you don't have a legitimate need for one, and there's no use for an AR15. No positive federal developments will occur on gun issues. |
September 4, 2017, 12:38 PM | #42 |
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That's the truth. Gun issues are not an important part of pandering to the 'base' for the Pres. or Congress. With all the 'base' invocations for this or that, never one for gun rights priority.
There's money to be made in not having gun rights really being strengthened.
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September 4, 2017, 09:26 PM | #43 | |
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Rant off. Sorry but I couldn't help myself. At least it was non (or bi?) partisan |
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September 4, 2017, 09:42 PM | #44 | |
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5W noed:
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I'm pretty sure nothing has changed. Too bad that and lying to the American public isn't a serious crime. But the question here is specifically the Hearing Protection Act, and if you see a chance that it may pass, and why or why not.
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September 4, 2017, 10:13 PM | #45 | |
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September 5, 2017, 10:14 AM | #46 | |
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national ccw involves not just the Federal govt, but the states as well, and that, as they say is an entirely different kettle of fish. When the wackjobs currently controlling the Democratic party made gun control one of the party "planks" (whether they wrote it exactly that way, or not) they sot only slapped all gun owning Americans in the face, they stabbed gun owning members of their own party in the back! Until/unless that changes, NO pro gun law has much chance, on the Federal level, even if the Republicans actually worked at passing one, which, they don't...
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September 5, 2017, 12:21 PM | #47 | |
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Who opposes firearms being less cripplingly noisy?
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http://www.npboards.com/index.php Last edited by zukiphile; September 5, 2017 at 01:11 PM. |
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September 5, 2017, 03:58 PM | #48 | |
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They just cloak their true feelings in rhetoric about crime and public safety. after all, we are naught but a basket of deplorables clinging to our guns and religion.... or so I've heard...
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September 6, 2017, 12:45 PM | #49 |
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IMHO one of the central ironies to 44 AMP's last post is that—should the HPA pass—I predict that those same folks will fall all over themselves to pass local laws requiring ALL sport shooting to be done with silencers, to cut down on the sound of gunfire in rural areas (which will be their stated purpose), and to make it more expensive to participate in the shooting sports (which they'll coyly deny but we'll know better).
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September 6, 2017, 04:22 PM | #50 | |
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There seems to be no end to the hypocrisy some folk are capable of. |
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