Powder, What Powder?

[Zeroed]

I have posted a few threads for information and clarity as well as for your suggestions. And I appreciate the advice. I'd like to say there won't be any more questions, but that's about impossible it seems when it comes to reloading.

I've read in other posts as well as in some of mine, where a reloader will pull the bullet, dump the powder and reload again because he found the powder charge was off, either by an excess or not enough.

Question:
How do you know the powder charge was Off? I assume by spot checking the weight of the powder charge often?
But I've seen where guys said they've pulled 100 or so reloads to check the powder charge?

Question 2:
If you find yourself in the need of pulling heads, but not sure when the mis-charge occurred, Couldn't you weigh the completed reload against a known good load, instead of pulling the head and checking?
Maybe if you had 100 rounds you were not sure of, couldn't you weigh say 20, 25 or even 50 of good loads against the same amount of questionable loads?
Would this action work the same or near the same as weighing each 1 at a time?

Just curious. When I start, I want to load everything 1 at a time in a matching/near matching weight class for the brass, heads, primers, then load with powder. So if I ever did have a mis-charge of powder, I will be able to go right where it started to when it stopped.
Is this going too far, or just not a practical way to do it?
I'm wanting answers before I ever cross these roads. So thanks for bearing with me.

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by Zeroed

I have posted a few threads for information and clarity as well as for your suggestions. And I appreciate the advice. I'd like to say there won't be any more questions, but that's about impossible it seems when it comes to reloading.

I've read in other posts as well as in some of mine, where a reloader will pull the bullet, dump the powder and reload again because he found the powder charge was off, either by an excess or not enough.

Question:
How do you know the powder charge was Off? I assume by spot checking the weight of the powder charge often?
But I've seen where guys said they've pulled 100 or so reloads to check the powder charge?

Question 2:
If you find yourself in the need of pulling heads, but not sure when the mis-charge occurred, Couldn't you weigh the completed reload against a known good load, instead of pulling the head and checking?
Maybe if you had 100 rounds you were not sure of, couldn't you weigh say 20, 25 or even 50 of good loads against the same amount of questionable loads?
Would this action work the same or near the same as weighing each 1 at a time?

Just curious. When I start, I want to load everything 1 at a time in a matching/near matching weight class for the brass, heads, primers, then load with powder. So if I ever did have a mis-charge of powder, I will be able to go right where it started to when it stopped.
Is this going too far, or just not a practical way to do it?
I'm wanting answers before I ever cross these roads. So thanks for bearing with me.

No you can't. Problem is add the +/-difference between bullet's and case weight and you have no idea what the powder charge might be. With stick powder I throw light and trickle up every load. With ball powder I get the powder measure to throw what I want then throw 10 charges and weight. Come's out a grain plus or minus, I'm good to go. Come's out much different and I reset the powder measure. After that I weight about every tenth round. With flake powder I do the same thing and with both dump right into the case.

One more thing, they are called bullet's, not heads!

[jamaica]

OK, first unless these rounds are showing signs of over pressure, just go shoot them.

Next when reloading do things in batches. Use a loading board, drop powder in enough cases to fill a loading board, then take the board under a light and actually look into the cases. You can see the powder. You can see if there is powder in each one and you can see if there is an overload. Now seat bullets.

If you choose a powder that nearly fills the case, no chance of overfilling it.

IOW, look, see, pay attention and watch what you are doing.

[hdwhit]

Zeroed wrote:
I'd like to say there won't be any more questions, but that's about impossible it seems when it comes to reloading.

I've been reloading for more than 40 years and I still ask questions.

I've read in other posts as well as in some of mine, where a reloader will pull the bullet, dump the powder and reload again because he found the powder charge was off, either by an excess or not enough.

Yes, it does happen that for one reason or another the powder charge is too much or too little.

It is merely personal opinion, but the widespread use of volumetric powder measures that rely on gravity to fill their measuring chamber is one of the weak links in the reloading process.

How do you know the powder charge was Off?
I assume by spot checking the weight of the powder charge often?

Measure or inspect.

I load on a single stage press. When I reach the point to charge the cases with powder, I usually throw charges light into the pan on the balance and trickle them up to weight. This is too slow for most people.

On those occasions where I rely on the consistency of the powder measure, I set it and get it dispensing consistent charges. I then check-weigh the first three charges. If the first three are consistent, I then check-weigh every tenth charge after that.

But I've seen where guys said they've pulled 100 or so reloads to check the powder charge?

If you load 100 rounds before checking to see if there is a problem then you may have to disassemble 100 rounds when you do find a problem since you don't know where it started.

That's why I check every 10th round.

It's also why I have a collet-style bullet puller.

If you find yourself in the need of pulling heads, but not sure when the mis-charge occurred, Couldn't you weigh the completed reload against a known good load, instead of pulling the head and checking?

Possibly. If the variance in the powder charge is going to be greater than the cumulative variance in the weight of other components, that can work. But to make it work, you need to have weighed enough of your other components to know the standard weights and the spread between the heaviest and lightest component.

For example, if your primed cases run 50 to 53 grains and your bullets from 114 to 116 then the range of weights for an assembled cartridge with a 4 grain powder charge is 168 to 173 grains. Since it is possible for round assembled out of a 53 grain case and 116 grain bullet to weigh 169 grains without powder - a weight that outs it in the range you established for a loaded cartridge, weighing might not be effective in that case. You just have to run the numbers to see if weighing would pick up the error you are trying to control for.

I have decades of accumulated weight data so I routinely weigh assembled rounds looking for anomalies. And when I have an anomaly, I almost always have a problem, so weighing CAN work.

Just curious. When I start, I want to load everything 1 at a time in a matching/near matching weight class for the brass, heads, primers, then load with powder. So if I ever did have a mis-charge of powder, I will be able to go right where it started to when it stopped.

The variability of the weight of components - particularly pistol components - means that weighing may not always be the best quality control. For powder charging, I rely more on repeated visual inspection.

Something that worked well for me is once I have charged my cases and put them in a reloading block (I use the MTM Case Gard 150), I pick up the reloading block, give it a gentle shake, hold it up under a bright light at about a 30 degree angle and look for the shadow of the case mouth on the surface of the powder. A material over- or under-charge will lengthen or shorten the shadow significantly and in under the bright light the contrast is easy to notice.

Is this going too far, or just not a practical way to do it?
I'm wanting answers before I ever cross these roads. So thanks for bearing with me.

Can you get by with doing less? Yes. Many loaders have. But, I don't trust that I won't get distracted at the range, so I check and re-check, even verifying the presence of powder no fewer than three times before the bullet is seated.

You have to establish reloading procedures to fit the equipment you have, the cartridge(s) you are loading and the way you work. I err on the side of inspecting and reinspecting. But then, I only shoot 1,000 to 2,000 rounds a year, so I have the time. If I was putting 500 rounds downrange each week, I would have to do things differently and maybe accept some more risk.

[jamaica]

Have Fun!

[RC20]

Questions are good.

If you use an electronic scale and cross check the negative weight when the pan is off and its within 2/10, you have an auto check.

When I was using a beam I always checked the weight of a charge.

I have zero confidence in the dispensers, I have seen them throw way off (stick powders, the balls are pretty consistent)

As noted, between a case weight and (some bullets) you can be 3 grains off easily weighting the whole thing that has nothing to do with powder.

If you use an auto powder dispenser, two of the three beep and a green or red light (Lyman Gen 6 does not, not sure on the other Lymans)

With pistol I check inside the cases. More for a no charge where I missed a case.

Rifle I do not (lazy), primer won't put the bullet into the rifling. Process is rigorous and that is the only significant error that can take place. Not possible to double charge with my carridges.

[std7mag]

+1 for the collet puller!

I weigh and trickle all my rifle loads.
Pistol i throw, but check every 5th charge. Or 7th. Or 4th.
Spot checks over entire run.

[Charlie98]

One more thing, they are called bullet's, not heads!

Actually... that would be just 'bullets', not the possessive... but I agree. I don't know why that term bugs me, but it does. It's like calling a magazine a 'clip.'

[dahermit]

Actually... that would be just 'bullets', not the possessive... but I agree. I don't know why that term bugs me, but it does. It's like calling a magazine a 'clip.'

Put "run" in your bug list also, as in, "I run Winchester White Box ammo in my gun." When I look in the dictionary, the word "run" is not synonymous with "fire", "function", or "shoot". In sum, if one does not have an adequate vocabulary, just arbitrarily plug in a word that sounds cool.

[Zeroed]

hdwhit
I really appreciate the break-down explanation. Usually when multiple questions are brought up, seems 1 person will answer "a" question (maybe that's the only one they were familiar with), but then most other replies will follow suit with that answer, and the other questions are in limbo.
Again, Thank you for your time to answer them all.

As far as the "head" or "bullet", I guess it's where you are from as to what people refer to things and call them.
I for one know the difference between a "clip" and a "mag", but it does not bother or irk me, as it does some, if someone called their mag a clip. It's only a word, and most likely you knew what they were referring to.

[mikld]

As for powder charge consistency, I set my powder measure and weigh the first 5 or 6 charges after it's set. Depending on any variation in those 5 or 6, I will check every 5 to 10 charges. If the variations are small/close in my first 5, I may just check every 10th charge, or if the variation is larger I'll check every 4th or 5th charge. If I find a big change in a weighed charge I'll go back 5 charged cases and weigh every charge until I find the first OOPS. With my method I haven't had to pull any completed rounds (no I'm not "Mr. Reloader" and I do make mistakes, but I'm anal about my powder charges). Many times, and especially when I'm working up a load, I'll weigh every charge; charge light and trickle up. Works for me...

[BigJimP]

When I start my press, I check the first 5 powder drops on a scale....to make sure they are on target based on published data & my target drop for powder. I also have a " powder check " die installed in station 3 of my press that will alert me to any charge more than 0.1gr above or below my target drop. Even using the powder check, i still check 1 in about every 25...with scale.

So that's how I know my powder drops are right on. There is too much variation on weight of brass cases ...and on many bullets...to make weighing a completed cartridge meaningful. You can't shake them or anything else...to tell which ones may be heavy or light on powder.

Bottom line ...you have to check your powder drops, in process, or there is no way to tell.../ ...and eyeballing a case to see if one is light or heavy by even 0.2gr in most powders is not reliable either. I have buddies that think they can see a difference....and all you have to do is set up 10 cases, with some variation...and see if they can find the ones that are 0.3 gr. Low or high....and they aren't even 50% accurate...

[Zeroed]

mikld,
When you are checking every 5-10 charges, you're using a single press, right? I was thinking you completed each round as you went. Didn't occur to me to powder charge all the cases before pressing in the bullet to complete the round. Seems an easier solution to pulling. But there still leaves a possibility of over/under charging even before you press the bullet completing the reload.
But still a very good idea for me. Thanks and I appreciate this information,


BigJimP,
Never knew there was such an animal as a powder check die. Good to know, I'm wanting to get a lee pro 1000 when I find a used one in good condition and cheap. I hope it'll function in it as intended.
Thank for this useful tip.

[BigJimP]

You need a press with a 5 station head...so you have room in station 3, to install the powder check die...like in the Dillon 650. ( Dillon 550 and SDB are not designed to handle a powder check die ).

Hornaday LNL has an option too for their " powder cop die".

I prefer the Dillon 650 press.

[Zeroed]

I'll do some research on it. Thanks again.

[Charlie98]

The 5th station is exactly why I bought my Hornady ProJector (the predecessor to the LNL press.) You might be able to find either one used, thankfully they both take the same shell plates... but very little else interchanges.

[xandi]

If let’s say there is a tolerance of -/+ 3 grains on projectile, and -/+7 on the case is a swing of -/+10 gr so top end is 20 grains heavyer then the bottom end
Weighing the ammo won’t work unless the tolerances down
I set up my powder down weight the first few drops, then every 10th round, after my batch has been charged I visually check, and pull random samples for QA check,

[mikld]

mikld,
When you are checking every 5-10 charges, you're using a single press, right? I was thinking you completed each round as you went. Didn't occur to me to powder charge all the cases before pressing in the bullet to complete the round. Seems an easier solution to pulling. But there still leaves a possibility of over/under charging even before you press the bullet completing the reload.

Progressive presses don't fit my lifestyle and I "batch load". I usualy do a single step to at a time to 100 cases before I'm finished (First I clean and inspect every case. Then I'll size/deprime all brass. Next, if handgun ammo, I'll flare then prime all brass. If rifle ammo I'll measure and trim, deburr if necessary then prime. Many times I'll stop here and bag up the ready to charge cases. When I find a load I want to try of my stash gets low I'll charge and seat bullets. And I look in every charged case to make sure there is powder and no double charges.). Works quite well for me and my Co-Ax.

[ammo.crafter]

As Don said, finish your powder measure with a trickler.
Jamaica looks inside each case to make certain powder is there as I do.
Bear in mind there are different powders...ball, flake, string, etc and they all "measure" differently.

I use a loading block and load 20-rounds at a time which allows me to inspect each round with a quick visual inspection before seating a bullet.

Go slow, there's no rush.

[BigJimP]

I started reloading a little over 50 yrs ago....and single stage presses was virtually all there was....and while it was pretty good for the time...using tricklers makes it even slower....

Reloading is not a speed event ...but using a trickler ...and loading handgun ammo ...and only getting 300 or 400 rounds in 6 or 8 hours...is not fun either !

Today's progressives presses, with case feeders, with powder check dies...good procedures on a well maintained press...can easily turn out consistent ammo, with right on target powder drops...( and you sure don't need a powder trickler )...will easily turn out 800 to 1,000 rounds an hour ! ...especially in presses like Dillon's 650 or Hornaday LNL....

I will not compromise on making consistent and safe ammo.../ and even though I am retired - I want the time I spend reloading to give me a production level of ammo to make it fun....not tedious.

I shoot 10 - 15 boxes of handgun ammo a week...and with a Dillon 650, case feeder and a powder check, that takes me less than an hour ! I would rather spend my 3 range trips a week ...( about 8 hours, practicing and shooting, instead of reloading...).

[RC20]

Maybe that's why I like larger calibers. More boom for the effort.

I don't shoot so much its a pain, 200 - 250 a week maybe.

I process as much as I can in bulk, sizing, trimming etc.

[JeepHammer]

If you are NOT measuring every powder charge...

Progressive presses will usually provide a space for a powder check die in your processing.
I specifically purchased a Dillon 650 because it has an extra die hole for the powder check die.
Even the simple Dillon powder check die will find something as small as a cleaning pin difference in powder volume.

A second approach is to weigh your loaded rounds, they *Should* be fairly close *IF* you aren't mixing brass, primers or powder, and you are using bullets from a manufacturer that's all over the place.

*IF* you are using mixed brass, bullets with little quality control, etc., AND/OR, you want a very specific powder charge then the ONLY way to double check powder is to weigh every single charge.

Hyper accurate factory ammo goes through at least TWO powder measurement devices before it hits the case, usually two for weight, one for volume BEFORE it gets near the case.
Since most of us don't want to buy a computer for a CNC controlled powder measuring process, we use droppers, trickler & scales which are slow but very accurate.
It's TIME vs. investment in equipment and education on how to keep that equipment running correctly, you choose...