WWII OSS Pen gun - Page 2

James K · June 12, 2015, 10:04 AM

I am not sure I understand. If you sawed off only only one barrel of a double barrel shotgun, I guess that would be a case for a court to decide. From a concealability standpoint (which is the basis for the law), the gun would not be any more concealable, but going by the usual interpretation of the law, it might still be illegal. As usual, the only way to know for sure is to do it, then invite arrest and take the issue to court. 'Taint worth it.

Jim

Gunfixr · June 12, 2015, 02:19 PM

I didnt do this. Ive had a couple guns come in the door for some general repair, i dont know exactly, as i didnt get that far. The guns just looked short, you know, look at enough barrels, you know when one needs paperwork.
So, i measure it. Well, his dad, or granddad, never the guy with it, has cut it off at some point to make a "house gun" out of it. One even had the stock cut like an entry length stock. So, whoever cut it knew they could go all the way down to 18" and still be legal. So, they cut it right to the limit, like 1/4" makes a difference, i guess. They didnt do a good job, you dont even have to look hard its way canted.
One bore is 18 1/16", the other is 17 15/16".
I just told him to carry it, i think its illegal, we dont work on illegal guns. He went out the door and came back with just the receiver, asked if i could work on it now.
Sorry, too late, i already know.

I have assumed since each barrel is a barrel, they can pick which one. They do say they remove all muzzle attachments not permanently attached, and extend or open the stock, then measure to the shortest point along the bore line. That would mean the shorter of two barrels, at least to me.

I been out of the shop this week, dad and cancer stuff. Next week, ill try to remember to call tech branch and see what they say.

James K · June 12, 2015, 04:42 PM

Sorry to hear about your dad's problems.

Yes, 1/4 inch does make a difference but I have never heard of a double gun cut at such a bias. I guess the "gum mint" will have to have its say on that one.

Jim

jmorris · June 20, 2015, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Ok, so as long as any part of the barrel is over, its good. But, will atf consider two barrels side by side to be one barrel, or two barrels?
If two barrels, one is illegal.

It is overall length, not actually "barrel" length. Anything that is permanently attached to the "barrel" becomes part of the barrel and is included in the measurement.

You can take a 14" barrel and make it legal to put on a non SBR receiver if you permanently install a flash hider that makes the OAL 16" or more.

Or like this one stamp (for the suppressor) suppressed barrel I made. The "barrel" is only 7" but the outer tube is welded to the barrel and is 16.125" (not SBR) with the end cap removed.

It the suppressor could be removed I would need one stamp for the can and another for what would be an SBR.

James K · June 20, 2015, 09:32 PM

Correct, but poor wording. The term "overall length" usually is used in connection with the gun as a whole, not just the barrel.

For barrel length, anything welded to the barrel - a sound suppressor, flash suppressor, or just a plain tube - becomes part of the barrel and is counted that way for legal length purposes. It is not clear if something other than a tube (say a bayonet or a steel rod) welded to the front end of barrel extends the barrel length; that might be a question for BATFE.

Jim

Bill DeShivs · December 13, 2015, 07:52 PM

Why don't you just post a copy of the letter here?

James K · December 13, 2015, 10:52 PM

Hi, jmorris,

On that suppressor/SBR, there might still be a question. I think BATFE still considers it two NFA firearms - a suppressor and an SBR, and on transfer or build would require two tax stamps. I wonder if you have a BATFE letter or ruling for the "one stamp" idea.

Hi, two1253,

I see no reason you can't post the BATFE letter, just black out the name and address it was sent to. Note, though, that in most cases those letters are "ad hoc", meaning that they apply only to the specific person to whom they are written and for the specific purpose and time frame addressed. So a letter authorizing you to do something allows you to do it; if I do the same thing, I could be arrested. It may not be "just", but that is the way BATFE (and IRS) work.

Jim

Sharkbite · December 13, 2015, 11:06 PM

Quote:

On that suppressor/SBR, there might still be a question. I think BATFE still considers it two NFA firearms - a suppressor and an SBR, and on transfer or build would require two tax stamps. I wonder if you have a BATFE letter or ruling for the "one stamp" idea.

As long as the suppressor is "permanently attached", that is a 1 stamp gun (suppressor).

Just like a 14.5" barrel with perm attached flash hider that takes the length over 16".

The abillity to take out the baffle stack is not relevant. The perm attached tube makes the barrel length 16"+ so no SBR

Lots of guys are building Form 1 cans and perm attaching em to shorter barrels. Making a 1 stamp gun has turned into an art form with reguards to baffle design and stack configuration

gyvel · December 13, 2015, 11:45 PM

Quote:

I also have a letter from the ATF stating that after I make them legal,

You were last here in July with the same BS. Let's see the letter.

**Mike Irwin** · December 15, 2015, 11:22 AM

"With bit of questioning, I determined that it had to be a 100 round Thompson magazine. Needless to say, no name or anything. I have no idea what a C magazine would go for today, but it would be a lot more than $10."

There's one listed on Gunbroker for $9,000.

Given the limited number I've seen over the years, I suspect that that is a bit high, but certainly in the ballpark.

jmorris · December 15, 2015, 03:03 PM

Quote:

As long as the suppressor is "permanently attached", that is a 1 stamp gun (suppressor).

Just like a 14.5" barrel with perm attached flash hider that takes the length over 16".

The abillity to take out the baffle stack is not relevant. The perm attached tube makes the barrel length 16"+ so no SBR

This is correct.

James K · December 15, 2015, 10:20 PM

OK, what is the deal if the barrel length, with the permanently attached suppressor, is under 16"? The question once arose regarding the drilling of holes in the barrel of a STEN and attaching a sleeve to make a suppressor. IIRC, BATFE ruled two stamps - one for the SMG and one for the suppressor, even though it was built into the barrel.

Jim

Sharkbite · December 16, 2015, 11:25 AM

James,

The difference is "permanently attached"

Even a 14.5" AR has to have the muzzle device attached in such a way as to not be able to be removed.

Blind pin, is one way. If it just takes a wrench to twist off the flash hider (or in this case the Suppressor) and that leaves you with a rifle barrel under the magic 16" length...it requires a SBR form and a tax stamp

Edit..i just reread your post.

If the attached muzzle device does not make it 16" or more then you need to register it as an SBR

If the Sten in question is a registered full auto gun, then there is no barrel length restriction. A MG can have any length barrel

James K · December 16, 2015, 04:19 PM

True, but the question involved whether a STEN with a built in suppressor needed two stamps, one for the machinegun and one for the suppressor, even though the suppressor was part of the barrel and hence part of the gun. IIRC, the gummint ruled that the suppressor, even though part of the gun, was a separate device and needed its own stamp. Of course, that kind of thing is always subject to change, basically on the whim of an agent.

Jim

mapsjanhere · December 16, 2015, 04:44 PM

I think the problem here is the making of it. If you make a silenced machine gun from scratch you need one stamp - but it's post-sample only. If you make a silencer for an already stamped machine gun you need a second one for the silencer manufacture. The interesting question is - once you made it and transfer it, does it still need 2 or can you merge.

James K · December 16, 2015, 07:11 PM

IIRC, they also ruled that a regular rifle became a "firearm" if the barrel was drilled to become a suppressor. What happened was that someone took one of those Mossberg box magazine .22's with the full length stock and drilled a series of holes in the barrel venting into steel wool in the hollowed out stock. The gun was very quiet.

Then-ATTF ruled that the gun itself was a suppressor and had to be registered.

Now the intent of the law is obviously to control suppressors, but its wording is such that a "silencer" is considered a "device" separate from the gun. AFAIK, the government definition prevailed (it usually does).

Jim

Sharkbite · December 16, 2015, 07:26 PM

An integrally suppressed handgun or Rifle (with a barrel over 16") is a one stamp gun. If the Rifle barrel is <16" then it needs a 2nd stamp

jmorris · December 17, 2015, 08:58 AM

There are some Sterlings, Stens and MP5 SD's out there that are full auto and suppressed on only one stamp. Most I have seen are on two.

jmorris · December 17, 2015, 09:00 AM

Hen there is this to go with the "modifying" part.

Quote:

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, DC 20226

E:CE:FT:RAT
3311
JUL 15 1997

Dear :

This refers to Your letter of May 17, 1997, in which you ask if you
could buy and possess a ported barrel designed to fit onto a
Swedish K and use it with your registered firearm silencer which is
designed for use with the Smith & Wesson (S&W), Model 76
machinegun.

As defined Title 18 United States Code (U.S.C.), chapter 44,
section 921(a) (24), the term "firearm silencer" and "firearm
muffler" means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing
the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of
parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling
or fabricating a firearm silencer or muffler, and any part intended
only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

A firearm barrel, ported and threaded at its muzzle, which is
intended for use in the assembly of a firearm silencer would meet
the above definition, Therefore, the barrel in question would have
to be registered in accordance with the provisions of the National
Firearms Act.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If
we may be of further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,

Edward M. Owen, Jr.

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

gyvel · December 17, 2015, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Ok, so as long as any part of the barrel is over, its good. But, will atf consider two barrels side by side to be one barrel, or two barrels?
If two barrels, one is illegal.

I think that's worth of an inquiry to ATF.

Somehow, though, I don't think they would give a favorable ruling for that.

jmorris · December 17, 2015, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Ok, so as long as any part of the barrel is over, its good. But, will atf consider two barrels side by side to be one barrel, or two barrels?
If two barrels, one is illegal.

I think that's worth of an inquiry to ATF.

Or not, what would be the use? See if you can make contact with the long barrel with shot from the short one?

gyvel · December 18, 2015, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Or not, what would be the use? See if you can make contact with the long barrel with shot from the short one?

No, I was referring to the situation where the two barrels were cut at an angle and one ended up 1/16" shy of 18" by accident.

jmorris · December 18, 2015, 11:32 AM

Doesn't matter, it doesn't even need to be "barrel" that makes the length, just something permanently attached to it. As long as the furthermost tip is legal, that is all that matters, you can cut it crooked or even make it look like a castle nut on the end, doesn't matter.

Quote:

The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download

Sharkbite · December 18, 2015, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Doesn't matter, it doesn't even need to be "barrel" that makes the length, just something permanently attached to it. As long as the furthermost tip is legal, that is all that matters, you can cut it crooked or even make it look like a castle nut on the end, doesn't matter.

I would tend to agree. BUT, if i had a dbl barrel gun that had been cut like that (and wanted to keep the gun that way) i would get a determination letter from ATF saying it was legal.

That letter would include the S/N of the gun and would prevent trouble down the road.

On a separate issue...im not a big SG shooter, but wouldnt a angled cut at the muzzle adversely effect patterns? Id want the gun fixed

jmorris · December 18, 2015, 08:47 PM

Doesn't sound like a good idea at all to me.

Would make as much sense as making a questionable firearm then asking them if it were OK.

So if they like it you get a letter. What if they don't and you get arrested?

In any case what I quoted above is the letter of the law at this point.

If I thought I had made a questionable cut on a barrel, it would be turned into slag before it made it near the receiver again. Cheaper than the risk of having an unregistered SBS.

December 13, 2015, 07:52 PM	#31
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Why don't you just post a copy of the letter here? __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

December 15, 2015, 11:22 AM	#35
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"With bit of questioning, I determined that it had to be a 100 round Thompson magazine. Needless to say, no name or anything. I have no idea what a C magazine would go for today, but it would be a lot more than $10." There's one listed on Gunbroker for $9,000. Given the limited number I've seen over the years, I suspect that that is a bit high, but certainly in the ballpark. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 16, 2015, 04:44 PM	#40
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	I think the problem here is the making of it. If you make a silenced machine gun from scratch you need one stamp - but it's post-sample only. If you make a silencer for an already stamped machine gun you need a second one for the silencer manufacture. The interesting question is - once you made it and transfer it, does it still need 2 or can you merge. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

June 12, 2015, 10:04 AM	#26
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I am not sure I understand. If you sawed off only only one barrel of a double barrel shotgun, I guess that would be a case for a court to decide. From a concealability standpoint (which is the basis for the law), the gun would not be any more concealable, but going by the usual interpretation of the law, it might still be illegal. As usual, the only way to know for sure is to do it, then invite arrest and take the issue to court. 'Taint worth it. Jim

June 12, 2015, 02:19 PM	#27
Gunfixr Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2007 Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 360	I didnt do this. Ive had a couple guns come in the door for some general repair, i dont know exactly, as i didnt get that far. The guns just looked short, you know, look at enough barrels, you know when one needs paperwork. So, i measure it. Well, his dad, or granddad, never the guy with it, has cut it off at some point to make a "house gun" out of it. One even had the stock cut like an entry length stock. So, whoever cut it knew they could go all the way down to 18" and still be legal. So, they cut it right to the limit, like 1/4" makes a difference, i guess. They didnt do a good job, you dont even have to look hard its way canted. One bore is 18 1/16", the other is 17 15/16". I just told him to carry it, i think its illegal, we dont work on illegal guns. He went out the door and came back with just the receiver, asked if i could work on it now. Sorry, too late, i already know. I have assumed since each barrel is a barrel, they can pick which one. They do say they remove all muzzle attachments not permanently attached, and extend or open the stock, then measure to the shortest point along the bore line. That would mean the shorter of two barrels, at least to me. I been out of the shop this week, dad and cancer stuff. Next week, ill try to remember to call tech branch and see what they say.

June 12, 2015, 04:42 PM	#28
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Sorry to hear about your dad's problems. Yes, 1/4 inch does make a difference but I have never heard of a double gun cut at such a bias. I guess the "gum mint" will have to have its say on that one. Jim

June 20, 2015, 09:32 PM	#30
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Correct, but poor wording. The term "overall length" usually is used in connection with the gun as a whole, not just the barrel. For barrel length, anything welded to the barrel - a sound suppressor, flash suppressor, or just a plain tube - becomes part of the barrel and is counted that way for legal length purposes. It is not clear if something other than a tube (say a bayonet or a steel rod) welded to the front end of barrel extends the barrel length; that might be a question for BATFE. Jim

December 13, 2015, 10:52 PM	#32
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, jmorris, On that suppressor/SBR, there might still be a question. I think BATFE still considers it two NFA firearms - a suppressor and an SBR, and on transfer or build would require two tax stamps. I wonder if you have a BATFE letter or ruling for the "one stamp" idea. Hi, two1253, I see no reason you can't post the BATFE letter, just black out the name and address it was sent to. Note, though, that in most cases those letters are "ad hoc", meaning that they apply only to the specific person to whom they are written and for the specific purpose and time frame addressed. So a letter authorizing you to do something allows you to do it; if I do the same thing, I could be arrested. It may not be "just", but that is the way BATFE (and IRS) work. Jim

December 15, 2015, 10:20 PM	#37
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	OK, what is the deal if the barrel length, with the permanently attached suppressor, is under 16"? The question once arose regarding the drilling of holes in the barrel of a STEN and attaching a sleeve to make a suppressor. IIRC, BATFE ruled two stamps - one for the SMG and one for the suppressor, even though it was built into the barrel. Jim

December 16, 2015, 11:25 AM	#38
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	James, The difference is "permanently attached" Even a 14.5" AR has to have the muzzle device attached in such a way as to not be able to be removed. Blind pin, is one way. If it just takes a wrench to twist off the flash hider (or in this case the Suppressor) and that leaves you with a rifle barrel under the magic 16" length...it requires a SBR form and a tax stamp Edit..i just reread your post. If the attached muzzle device does not make it 16" or more then you need to register it as an SBR If the Sten in question is a registered full auto gun, then there is no barrel length restriction. A MG can have any length barrel

December 16, 2015, 04:19 PM	#39
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	True, but the question involved whether a STEN with a built in suppressor needed two stamps, one for the machinegun and one for the suppressor, even though the suppressor was part of the barrel and hence part of the gun. IIRC, the gummint ruled that the suppressor, even though part of the gun, was a separate device and needed its own stamp. Of course, that kind of thing is always subject to change, basically on the whim of an agent. Jim

December 16, 2015, 07:11 PM	#41
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	IIRC, they also ruled that a regular rifle became a "firearm" if the barrel was drilled to become a suppressor. What happened was that someone took one of those Mossberg box magazine .22's with the full length stock and drilled a series of holes in the barrel venting into steel wool in the hollowed out stock. The gun was very quiet. Then-ATTF ruled that the gun itself was a suppressor and had to be registered. Now the intent of the law is obviously to control suppressors, but its wording is such that a "silencer" is considered a "device" separate from the gun. AFAIK, the government definition prevailed (it usually does). Jim

December 16, 2015, 07:26 PM	#42
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	An integrally suppressed handgun or Rifle (with a barrel over 16") is a one stamp gun. If the Rifle barrel is <16" then it needs a 2nd stamp

December 17, 2015, 08:58 AM	#43
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	There are some Sterlings, Stens and MP5 SD's out there that are full auto and suppressed on only one stamp. Most I have seen are on two.

December 18, 2015, 08:47 PM	#50
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	Doesn't sound like a good idea at all to me. Would make as much sense as making a questionable firearm then asking them if it were OK. So if they like it you get a letter. What if they don't and you get arrested? In any case what I quoted above is the letter of the law at this point. If I thought I had made a questionable cut on a barrel, it would be turned into slag before it made it near the receiver again. Cheaper than the risk of having an unregistered SBS.