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Old February 20, 2019, 03:21 PM   #51
5whiskey
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In my simple mind, I perceive Speaker Pelosi’s statement as a threat against something in the bill of rights by emergency action of some unknown future president in retaliation to an emergency action by the current President. Besides the unknown identity of this future presidency, the conditions and time of the emergency action is also unknown; However, the Speaker did state which political party this unknown future president will be a member of.
That’s a head scratcher to me, but then, I’m a simple person.
It is a head scratcher indeed. At face value it sounded like a nice comeback or quip to someone who can't be bothered to understand the difference between specifically enumerated constitutional right, and moving some money around in the federal budget to complete a project that was made law in 2006. Tis not exactly an "apples apples" comparison.

None the less...

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Or via a 'national emergency'...if that toothpaste is outta the tube(precedent)...
I don't disagree with this. I don't think it's smart to water down what constitutes a "national emergency" for the purpose of granting unlimited executive authority. But that's not necessarily a gun debate, so it's neither here nor there.
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Old February 20, 2019, 03:53 PM   #52
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If sheriff's tolerance and jury nullification are the rule in an area, the heirs aren't really in a hard place. As with the 18th Am. and the 55mph speed limit, where non-compliance is the ordinary condition and the law is viewed as foolish, non-compliance becomes public, accepted and normal and prosecution itself is seen as an injustice.

A half century ago, William F. Buckley argued for legalization of marijuana and in the 1980s cited a lad being given a long prison sentence for possession as a reason for legalization. A week ago, I was called by a NY client whose daughter had been stopped for speeding in Ohio and was ticketed for possession because she hadn't thought to hide it from the PO.

I am not an advocate for legalization, but it illlustrates the limited utility of a legal prohibition poorly matched to ordinary attitudes.
On another note, Zukaphile has made a valid argument for potential situations given by Glenn in the OP. Yes, I don't want to leave my kids in a potential conundrum where they have to turn in or destroy weapons for which mere possession of is a felony. I am also hesitant to embrace the basic attitude that "it's a bullcrap law and no one abides by it, and prosecution for it is rare, so let's just all ignore it as it will soon be legal anyway." But to be completely fair, that's exactly what happened with the 18th amendment, national speed limit laws, marijuana in many states, the sedition act, sodomy laws, laws that make homosexual sex a crime, Jim Crow Laws, laws prohibiting birth control, and the list goes on. Each of these laws were (or are currently) bent or largely ignored by the masses, making even limited enforcement problematic. There is limited (almost no) case law on Desuetude (the concept of a long unenforced law becoming void on it's face) in the United States outside of West Virginia courts, however it is semi-common practice for said laws to be repealed or continued to be ignored.

Which, all of this is good and well when we're discussing misdemeanors with a nominal fine (which most of my above referenced samples are). It's an entirely different matter when it is a felony that forever removes you from enjoying certain constitutional rights and is punishable by prison. While many may roll the dice, many will also not take the chance. I don't see felony firearm regulations quite in the same light as the national speed limit act because of this. Still, the point remains that enough resistance to an unjust law can and occasionally does create enough support to repeal the law over time, at least in some instances.
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Old February 20, 2019, 04:18 PM   #53
davidsog
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Of course there will be push back and violence if an out-right gun ban is put in place.

There will be people that will not sit back and quietly allow the fundamental right to protect themselves be taken away.

It will only take one formally law-abiding citizen that dies fighting the police to plant the seed of rebellion.

Look at what happened at Ruby Ridge when the BATF attempted to serve a warrant for failure to appear over an illegal shotgun charge. The echoes of that action still resonate and a universal gun ban would touch off an insurgency.

May not happen immediately but it would happen.
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Old February 20, 2019, 06:58 PM   #54
Tom Servo
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Look at what happened at Ruby Ridge when the BATF attempted to serve a warrant for failure to appear over an illegal shotgun charge.
Honestly? The vast majority of gun owners I knew at the time shrugged, said something about the "whacko cult," and went on with their lives.

That's the problem. We're not the people we were in the 18th century. If the worst were to happen and someone were to resist with force of arms, the media would cast them as a lone-wolf extremist terrorist, a public lacking in any skepticism would accept the narrative, and it would only be justification for more restrictions on the RKBA.

Even if we were made of the same stuff as our forefathers, it's not even remotely time for such ideas. Strained as it may sometimes be, our system is still in place, and we still have legal recourse.
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Old February 20, 2019, 08:16 PM   #55
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On a small scale, the National Guard confiscated guns in the Katrina aftermath and nothing really happened. Many places have passed some significant gun restrictions and haven’t seen much resistance. I myself think that a national ban would go off without too much resistance, monitoring and maintaining a national gun ban wouldn’t work because of the expense probably, not because of resistance. Good citizens typically comply with laws, even if they disagree.
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Old February 20, 2019, 08:27 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Even if we were made of the same stuff as our forefathers, it's not even remotely time for such ideas. Strained as it may sometimes be, our system is still in place, and we still have legal recourse.
That's almost always true, but real due process is a part of the legitimacy that places armed action beyond the pale. Yes, people generally have great disdain for Randy Weaver's religion and David Koresh's outfit. The condemnation of Cliven Bundy's crowd was so strong here that the idea of any federal fault in the bird sanctuary episode was angrily dismissed as looney, yet the number of federal agents involved in the standoff and amongst the Bundy group led a jury to dismiss the charges. The longstanding sentiment of the sagebrush rebellion is that there is an authority of federal regulators from whom there is no practical appeal. In Sackett v. EPA, the federal government argued that its compliance orders aren't subject to judicial review.

That over-reach undermines the legitimacy and contributes to a sense of outrage even where the victims aren't like us. Could that lead to a large population, even including those who don't own guns, of people who think federal firearms enforcement lacks moral force and is rightly ignored? I don't see it under current restrictions in most places, but greater restriction coupled with enforcement seen as wrong or unfair could change that.
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Old February 21, 2019, 10:20 AM   #57
Glenn E. Meyer
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I have deleted discussion of 'armed rebellion' over new laws. They are not relevant to the OP. As I said, we have wandered a bit.

Ignoring the law and keeping banned items is an action one might consider when being left Grandpa's banned items. Postulating overthrowing the government is not in the domain of responses that I wanted to discuss as practical solutions to the problem an heir might have.
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Old February 21, 2019, 11:13 AM   #58
davidsog
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Postulating overthrowing the government is not in the domain of responses that I wanted to discuss as practical solutions to the problem an heir might have.
Ok

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Honestly? The vast majority of gun owners I knew at the time shrugged, said something about the "whacko cult," and went on with their lives.
Sure..no consequences at all.

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Reading lots of posts about upcoming or proposed bans on guns and mags in various states, inevitably someone proclaims that they will not turn theirs in or most folks won't.

As I've said before, even if you keep them, they are now useless for any lawful activity and except for being hidden, so what.

OK, gun loving Grandpa kicks off or goes to home as he is now not able to take care of himself. What do the kids do with the forbidden items? Unless they are hard core, they probably don't want a hidden stash in their house?

They can't sell them legally. Yeah, they could drive them to another state and if stopped by the law - oops.

If they call the local law to come get the forbidden times, does a surviving Grandpa get hit with the legal penalties of fines and time?

If Grandma is in the house and knew of the stash - is she a felon? Now maybe your Andy of Mayberry type will handle it on the sly but I wouldn't trust all law officers to do such.

I wouldn't want to put my kids in such a bind.
Not sure what you are expecting or hoping to hear will be the outcome. Hope you get your answer, LOL.

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Old February 21, 2019, 11:57 AM   #59
riffraff
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Originally Posted by rickyrick View Post
On a small scale, the National Guard confiscated guns in the Katrina aftermath and nothing really happened. Many places have passed some significant gun restrictions and haven’t seen much resistance. I myself think that a national ban would go off without too much resistance, monitoring and maintaining a national gun ban wouldn’t work because of the expense probably, not because of resistance. Good citizens typically comply with laws, even if they disagree.
NH actually has a law on the books making confiscation due to such an emergency illegal, at least by state law, which was put in place on the grounds of what happened there.
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Old February 21, 2019, 12:04 PM   #60
rickyrick
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riffraff,
Texas passed a similar law afterwards as well I think.
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Old February 21, 2019, 01:05 PM   #61
davidsog
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On a small scale, the National Guard confiscated guns in the Katrina aftermath and nothing really happened. Many places have passed some significant gun restrictions and haven’t seen much resistance. I myself think that a national ban would go off without too much resistance, monitoring and maintaining a national gun ban wouldn’t work because of the expense probably, not because of resistance. Good citizens typically comply with laws, even if they disagree.
And there is no disagreeing with that without being moderated.
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Old February 21, 2019, 01:19 PM   #62
davidsog
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Ignoring the law and keeping banned items is an action one might consider when being left Grandpa's banned items. Postulating overthrowing the government is not in the domain of responses that I wanted to discuss as practical solutions to the problem an heir might have.
If an item is grandfathered under the law, it is legal. That is why "pre-ban" guns are for sale everyday on Gunboards and other venues.

Why do you think there would be some legal issues over a legally grandfathered item?

Are you thinking about folks "hiding" guns after a general ban / confiscation?

It all depends.

Perhaps things will be like Australia and the guns will go to the thriving organized crime run black market. Perhaps the family would like to trade them for Rocket Launchers, LOL?

Quote:
In a country with strict gun laws, unregistered firearms are still available on the black market.
Quote:
In fact, recent research conducted by the ABC and Fact Check has suggested that although the rate of firearm suicide had already fallen 67 percent since 1996, the reforms didn't have as much of an impact on firearm homicide rates.
https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/7...r-illegal-guns

https://www.acic.gov.au/sites/defaul...f?v=1477016769

Quote:
Australia’s Gun 'Buyback' Created a Violent Firearms Black Market.
https://reason.com/archives/2016/03/...ated-a-violent

They could try amnesty boxes at the police stations to drop off your illegal weapons or go house to house multiple times to ensure all weapons are confiscated.

That will work as it always in history...just like the instant general uprising, LOL.
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Old February 21, 2019, 03:02 PM   #63
Glenn E. Meyer
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The OP clearly indicated the banned items weren't to be grandfathered.

Since the thread as gone off the rails and engendered rather ridiculous responses, with useless hypotheticals - I've had enough.

The major concerns were addressed.

Closed.
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