Your last gun fight..?? - Page 5

American Man · November 29, 2019, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Dover

Could it be that some folks just aren't as paranoid as others??

deleted... no point in arguing with those who have a God Complex.

Ben Dover · November 29, 2019, 08:30 PM

And some of us have been through more hell than most people can imagine.

And still managed to keep from getting paranoid.

American Man · November 29, 2019, 08:34 PM

...

American Man · November 29, 2019, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Dover

And some of us have been through more hell than most people can imagine.

And still managed to keep from getting paranoid.

I guess you are just the most amazing person in the world. Pat yourself on the back for being so superior to the rest of us who might put a little more effort or preparation into how we go about our daily business. I'm glad you have it all figured out.

Lohman446 · November 29, 2019, 08:52 PM

Considering some of the situations some of you are advocating being prepared for I would not let that not paranoid premise be too large of a foundation for your arguments.

The OP was pretty clear if tongue in cheek. Very few people, operating as civilian CCW holders, have the experience to be considered direct subject matter experts in regards to the use of force. The expertise, if one wishes to call it that, is ultimately academic in nature

American Man · November 29, 2019, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lohman446

Considering some of the situations some of you are advocating being prepared for I would not let that not paranoid premise be too large of a foundation for your arguments.

The OP was pretty clear if tongue in cheek. Very few people, operating as civilian CCW holders, have the experience to be considered direct subject matter experts in regards to the use of force. The expertise, if one wishes to call it that, is ultimately academic in nature

Again, I find myself getting riled up. People want to throw in their cheap shots about paranoia and then slink back into their hole. I guess I should be used to to this by now... not directed at you.

Lohman446 · November 29, 2019, 09:01 PM

What hole? These conversations are generally had from relative safety for everyone involved. Most of us from the comfort of our desks or couches.

Remember the superiority complexes in these threads cuts both ways.

American Man · November 29, 2019, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lohman446

What hole? These conversations are generally had from relative safety for everyone involved. Most of us from the comfort of our desks or couches.

Remember the superiority complexes in these threads cuts both ways.

I was having difficulty editing my post. I was not directing anything at you.

American Man · November 29, 2019, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lohman446

What hole? These conversations are generally had from relative safety for everyone involved. Most of us from the comfort of our desks or couches.

Remember the superiority complexes in these threads cuts both ways.

Roger that... definitely time for me to take a break.

Lohman446 · November 29, 2019, 09:10 PM

I probably overstepped in reality. I’ve been pushing the line. I have an honest curiosity about why X is not enough but Y is overboard. The values of X and Y are fluid and I’m genuinely curious how one finds Goldilocks (just right). So I sometimes push more than I should in the matter

**JohnKSa** · November 30, 2019, 02:29 AM

The key isn't arriving at some perfect number, the key is realistic expectations.

To see what I mean by that, it's best to examine a few of the more common unrealistic expectations:

1. It's unrealistic to assume that you will only be faced with one attacker.
2. It's unrealistic to assume that you will not miss.
3. It's unrealistic to assume that a single shot will disable/stop an attacker.
4. It's unrealistic to assume that your gun will function perfectly just like it does at the range.

Now, of course there ARE some situations where a person is faced with a single attacker, they fire a single shot that does not miss, the gun functions perfectly and the confrontation is over. The point is that you can't assume that's what's going to happen because your situation might involve 3 attackers, you might only hit with a third of the shots that you fire, it might take 2 or 3 good hits per attacker to disable them, and your gun might malfunction after 4 rounds are fired--requiring that you perform immediate remedial action to continue firing.

Anyway, so let's think about looking at this from a realistic perspective and from the standpoint of using a gun to solve a problem.

Let's say that the problem we want to prepare to solve is a scenario where we are confronted with 2 attackers who each must be shot 2 times to be stopped and we assume our hit rate is 50%.

Then it wouldn't make sense to carry a 5 shot personal defense gun because the odds of failing in the stated scenario with the given assumptions are over 80%. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that scenario is statistically likely, I'm just saying that if that scenario sounds like one you want to prepare for, then you might want to think about having more than 5 rounds on tap. If you had 8 rounds available, for example but kept all the other parameters the same, your chances of succeeding improve from about 1 out of 5 to about 2 out of 3. That's a big improvement over a 4 out of 5 chance of failing.

In other words, the goal shouldn't be to find the "magic number" of rounds, the goal should be to pick a number based on a reasonable analysis.

Way too many people end up with a capacity number driven by something that has nothing to do with a reasonable analysis of any realistic scenario and then try to rationalize why that number is a good one. I think it makes more sense to start with a reasonable analysis.

USNRet93 · November 30, 2019, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical Jackalope

That said, I and many others I know carry similarly.

Glock 17 or HK P30L with at least one spare on person. The usual EDC pocket dumps. And medical. A TQ and combat gauze are a must.

Do you carry all that on your person or carry a pack of some kind?

American Man · November 30, 2019, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

The key isn't arriving at some perfect number, the key is realistic expectations.

To see what I mean by that, it's best to examine a few of the more common unrealistic expectations:

1. It's unrealistic to assume that you will only be faced with one attacker.
2. It's unrealistic to assume that you will not miss.
3. It's unrealistic to assume that a single shot will disable/stop an attacker.
4. It's unrealistic to assume that your gun will function perfectly just like it does at the range.

Now, of course there ARE some situations where a person is faced with a single attacker, they fire a single shot that does not miss, the gun functions perfectly and the confrontation is over. The point is that you can't assume that's what's going to happen because your situation might involve 3 attackers, you might only hit with a third of the shots that you fire, it might take 2 or 3 good hits per attacker to disable them, and your gun might malfunction after 4 rounds are fired--requiring that you perform immediate remedial action to continue firing.

Anyway, so let's think about looking at this from a realistic perspective and from the standpoint of using a gun to solve a problem.

Let's say that the problem we want to prepare to solve is a scenario where we are confronted with 2 attackers who each must be shot 2 times to be stopped and we assume our hit rate is 50%.

Then it wouldn't make sense to carry a 5 shot personal defense gun because the odds of failing in the stated scenario with the given assumptions are over 80%. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that scenario is statistically likely, I'm just saying that if that scenario sounds like one you want to prepare for, then you might want to think about having more than 5 rounds on tap. If you had 8 rounds available, for example but kept all the other parameters the same, your chances of succeeding improve from about 1 out of 5 to about 2 out of 3. That's a big improvement over a 4 out of 5 chance of failing.

In other words, the goal shouldn't be to find the "magic number" of rounds, the goal should be to pick a number based on a reasonable analysis.

Way too many people end up with a capacity number driven by something that has nothing to do with a reasonable analysis of any realistic scenario and then try to rationalize why that number is a good one. I think it makes more sense to start with a reasonable analysis.

You and some others on here lay out some pretty good detailed decision making process. What you number 1-4 as being unrealistic is spot on... and with number 4, combined with the stress of the situation, the gun may not be performing as expected because of the individual... for more reasons than just being a terrible shot... stress reactions, visibility... this might also be covered by #2 though.

When I drive down to Sam's and most places it is about an hour. I don't just fill up 3 gallons in my car, I fill up the whole tank. Too many times I have been down to E because of unforseen circumstances, that maybe shouldn't have have been too unforeseen. Too many times an accident has caused me to be late for appointments so I leave an hour earlier for appointments. When I go to the woods, I pack about twice as much food for what I need. Is that someone being paranoid if nothing happens? I'd like to say any normal person would think it's common sense or just regular behavior, not paranoid. I carry some saws and chains for a tree that suddenly comes down... and occasionally with traffic backed up, a few people will actually help me. Some people don't carry anything like that. But maybe I am just paranoid about a tree falling in the road and need counseling... in between the times I am having to get out and move a tree out of the road of course... in those instances, everyone is glad to see someone out there getting the job done.

The worst things that have happened to people, start over every day with new people that may or may not have had a clue... whether it be the weather, a dog or pack of dogs, moose, bear, thug or thugs. I'd think that most people on here are aware of that when it rains sometimes it pours. I will admit I don't understand the rationale behind everyones decisions to do what they do or don't do. And from now on, I will not call anyone thick headed if they don't see things my way. And if someone wants to call carrying a semi auto with a spare mag paranoid, then so be it. I think I got a little smarter reading from some people on here and I appreciate that. And as for others... I have to practice that in one ear and out the other.

Tactical Jackalope · November 30, 2019, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Do you carry all that on your person or carry a pack of some kind?

I think it'll give people a stroke to know what I carry in my bag. So we'll stick to what's on me, that'll at least be a mild one lol.

Right now, this moment:

Heckler and Koch P30L w/ 1 spare magazine
Left pocket: Combat Gauze and Surefire E1D Defender
Right pocket: Benchmade 810 Contego, SOF-TQ, keys.
Back pocket R: Wallet
Back pocket L: Phone

Sometimes depending on where I'm going and who I'm with a Glock 36 on my ankle and 1 spare as well.

Tactical Jackalope · November 30, 2019, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
The key isn't arriving at some perfect number, the key is realistic expectations.

To see what I mean by that, it's best to examine a few of the more common unrealistic expectations:

1. It's unrealistic to assume that you will only be faced with one attacker.
2. It's unrealistic to assume that you will not miss.
3. It's unrealistic to assume that a single shot will disable/stop an attacker.
4. It's unrealistic to assume that your gun will function perfectly just like it does at the range.

Now, of course there ARE some situations where a person is faced with a single attacker, they fire a single shot that does not miss, the gun functions perfectly and the confrontation is over. The point is that you can't assume that's what's going to happen because your situation might involve 3 attackers, you might only hit with a third of the shots that you fire, it might take 2 or 3 good hits per attacker to disable them, and your gun might malfunction after 4 rounds are fired--requiring that you perform immediate remedial action to continue firing.

Anyway, so let's think about looking at this from a realistic perspective and from the standpoint of using a gun to solve a problem.

Let's say that the problem we want to prepare to solve is a scenario where we are confronted with 2 attackers who each must be shot 2 times to be stopped and we assume our hit rate is 50%.

Then it wouldn't make sense to carry a 5 shot personal defense gun because the odds of failing in the stated scenario with the given assumptions are over 80%. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that scenario is statistically likely, I'm just saying that if that scenario sounds like one you want to prepare for, then you might want to think about having more than 5 rounds on tap. If you had 8 rounds available, for example but kept all the other parameters the same, your chances of succeeding improve from about 1 out of 5 to about 2 out of 3. That's a big improvement over a 4 out of 5 chance of failing.

In other words, the goal shouldn't be to find the "magic number" of rounds, the goal should be to pick a number based on a reasonable analysis.

Way too many people end up with a capacity number driven by something that has nothing to do with a reasonable analysis of any realistic scenario and then try to rationalize why that number is a good one. I think it makes more sense to start with a reasonable analysis.

Hands down the best post I've seen here in a while.

Quote:

I think I got a little smarter reading from some people on here and I appreciate that. And as for others... I have to practice that in one ear and out the other.

Yes. And you'll be fought tooth and nail for antiquated logic.

Weapons have progressed and things have changed. The criminals have changed their tactics and have adapted to it, but we shouldn't be of "statistics"? No. Pass...

I'd rather someone be "over" prepared for the worst day of their life than under prepared because the internet told them how their fight might be.

USNRet93 · November 30, 2019, 02:27 PM

Thanks. I’d like to carry more but not sure I’d be able to keep my pants up. I do have a great belt. Mostly cuz I’m a 69yo ‘muffin top’...
Glock 26 with 15r mag-3 o’clock, IWB
11r mag left front pocket using a ‘SnagMag’
Keys, knife front right
Phone left rear
Wallet right rear.

Tactical Jackalope · November 30, 2019, 02:51 PM

It's all about trial and error.

Do you wear long pants most of the time or shorts? I wear long pants 99% of the time.

Last time I was in South America, I used an ankle kit to carry my medical.

I might even do the same here since it frees up space in my pockets for more important things like bubble gum or beef jerky if I see a dog I want to pet.

Nanuk · November 30, 2019, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Could it be that some folks just aren't as paranoid as others??

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

Nanuk · November 30, 2019, 02:59 PM

Quote:

I probably overstepped in reality. I’ve been pushing the line. I have an honest curiosity about why X is not enough but Y is overboard. The values of X and Y are fluid and I’m genuinely curious how one finds Goldilocks (just right). So I sometimes push more than I should in the matter

There are only 2 times when you have too much ammo. You are swimming or on fire.

Tactical Jackalope · November 30, 2019, 03:01 PM

Quote:

There are only 2 times when you have too much ammo. You are swimming or on fire.

I've been living by this for such a long time.

When I'd carry a 1911, I'd have 4 spare mags with me.

Nanuk · November 30, 2019, 04:30 PM

Quote:

I've been living by this for such a long time.

When I'd carry a 1911, I'd have 4 spare mags with me.

Ben Dover · November 30, 2019, 05:37 PM

I'm curious.

How many of you regularly wear plate carriers as part of your normal attire? There are snipers with rifles out there.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 30, 2019, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Dover

I'm curious.

How many of you regularly wear plate carriers as part of your normal attire? There are snipers with rifles out there.

Your sarcasm is underwhelming.

It's Thanksgiving weekend, fer cryin' out loud. Check the snark at the door.

dyl · November 30, 2019, 06:39 PM

Quote:

There are only 2 times when you have too much ammo. You are swimming or on fire.

These days we can probably use all the exercise we can get. As they say, every little bit counts!

7.62 man · November 30, 2019, 07:12 PM

I carry 7+1 in my gun & 1 extra 7rd mag. If I need more than that I got in the wrong fight & the man upstairs will have to decide my outcome.
I look at my carry gun as something to use to get my A$$ out of the line of fire.
If I'm going to stand & fight I had better be at home or close to my truck where I can get to my 2nd gun.
Most things I have read about shootouts it doesn't last long, a mag full at most.

November 29, 2019, 08:30 PM	#102
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	And some of us have been through more hell than most people can imagine. And still managed to keep from getting paranoid. __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.

November 29, 2019, 08:34 PM	#103
American Man Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2018 Posts: 218	... Last edited by American Man; November 29, 2019 at 08:42 PM.

November 29, 2019, 08:52 PM	#105
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	Considering some of the situations some of you are advocating being prepared for I would not let that not paranoid premise be too large of a foundation for your arguments. The OP was pretty clear if tongue in cheek. Very few people, operating as civilian CCW holders, have the experience to be considered direct subject matter experts in regards to the use of force. The expertise, if one wishes to call it that, is ultimately academic in nature Last edited by Lohman446; November 29, 2019 at 08:57 PM.

November 29, 2019, 09:10 PM	#110
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	I probably overstepped in reality. I’ve been pushing the line. I have an honest curiosity about why X is not enough but Y is overboard. The values of X and Y are fluid and I’m genuinely curious how one finds Goldilocks (just right). So I sometimes push more than I should in the matter __________________ A coward believes he will ever live if he keep him safe from strife: but old age leaves him not long in peace though spears may spare his life. - The Havamal (Bray translation)

November 30, 2019, 02:29 AM	#111
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,972	The key isn't arriving at some perfect number, the key is realistic expectations. To see what I mean by that, it's best to examine a few of the more common unrealistic expectations: 1. It's unrealistic to assume that you will only be faced with one attacker. 2. It's unrealistic to assume that you will not miss. 3. It's unrealistic to assume that a single shot will disable/stop an attacker. 4. It's unrealistic to assume that your gun will function perfectly just like it does at the range. Now, of course there ARE some situations where a person is faced with a single attacker, they fire a single shot that does not miss, the gun functions perfectly and the confrontation is over. The point is that you can't assume that's what's going to happen because your situation might involve 3 attackers, you might only hit with a third of the shots that you fire, it might take 2 or 3 good hits per attacker to disable them, and your gun might malfunction after 4 rounds are fired--requiring that you perform immediate remedial action to continue firing. Anyway, so let's think about looking at this from a realistic perspective and from the standpoint of using a gun to solve a problem. Let's say that the problem we want to prepare to solve is a scenario where we are confronted with 2 attackers who each must be shot 2 times to be stopped and we assume our hit rate is 50%. Then it wouldn't make sense to carry a 5 shot personal defense gun because the odds of failing in the stated scenario with the given assumptions are over 80%. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that scenario is statistically likely, I'm just saying that if that scenario sounds like one you want to prepare for, then you might want to think about having more than 5 rounds on tap. If you had 8 rounds available, for example but kept all the other parameters the same, your chances of succeeding improve from about 1 out of 5 to about 2 out of 3. That's a big improvement over a 4 out of 5 chance of failing. In other words, the goal shouldn't be to find the "magic number" of rounds, the goal should be to pick a number based on a reasonable analysis. Way too many people end up with a capacity number driven by something that has nothing to do with a reasonable analysis of any realistic scenario and then try to rationalize why that number is a good one. I think it makes more sense to start with a reasonable analysis. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

November 29, 2019, 09:01 PM	#107
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	What hole? These conversations are generally had from relative safety for everyone involved. Most of us from the comfort of our desks or couches. Remember the superiority complexes in these threads cuts both ways.

November 30, 2019, 02:27 PM	#116
USNRet93 Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2018 Location: Republic of Boulder, USA Posts: 1,475	Thanks. I’d like to carry more but not sure I’d be able to keep my pants up. I do have a great belt. Mostly cuz I’m a 69yo ‘muffin top’... Glock 26 with 15r mag-3 o’clock, IWB 11r mag left front pocket using a ‘SnagMag’ Keys, knife front right Phone left rear Wallet right rear. __________________ PhormerPhantomPhlyer "Tools not Trophies”

November 30, 2019, 02:51 PM	#117
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	It's all about trial and error. Do you wear long pants most of the time or shorts? I wear long pants 99% of the time. Last time I was in South America, I used an ankle kit to carry my medical. I might even do the same here since it frees up space in my pockets for more important things like bubble gum or beef jerky if I see a dog I want to pet.

November 30, 2019, 05:37 PM	#122
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	I'm curious. How many of you regularly wear plate carriers as part of your normal attire? There are snipers with rifles out there. __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.

November 30, 2019, 07:12 PM	#125
7.62 man Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2009 Location: Cyber-world USA Posts: 258	I carry 7+1 in my gun & 1 extra 7rd mag. If I need more than that I got in the wrong fight & the man upstairs will have to decide my outcome. I look at my carry gun as something to use to get my A$$ out of the line of fire. If I'm going to stand & fight I had better be at home or close to my truck where I can get to my 2nd gun. Most things I have read about shootouts it doesn't last long, a mag full at most.