8x57 Projectile Weight

[Gregory Gauvin]

I don't reload 8mm mauser, as of yet, because I have much surplus still left to burn. I have many 8mm mausers, from K98s to the m24/47 and the M-48s...

I understand the original German loading utilized a 198grain bullet. I don't know exactly what twist rate is or has been commonly utilized in most 8mm mauser rifles. However, I do know I have a stash of surplus Turkish 154 grain ammo. I also know the germans switched from their 1154grn to a 198grn projectile.

I am wondering how much of a POA/POI in elevation one may notice between the difference in bullet weights. I was at the range today, firing a M1924 rifle that had been sporterized. Somebody, years ago, obviously had shot the rifle, and zeroed it for some range. They put Lyman 57 sights on it. I had not changed the locked zero they had left on the elevation.

I started at 50 yards, I had bore sighted the rifle for windage...I was on paper. A few clicks of windage and I was dead center. These are 1/4 clicks, BTW. At 50 yards, I was perhaps 1.25 inches high. When I brought it out to 100 yards, rifle shot very high on a SR1 100 Yard Military target. It was hitting the top of the black ring. The black center of a SR1 target is 6 1/4" in diameter, so I eccentrically was 3" high from center X. I lowered the elevation by 12 clicks to get on center.

Either somebody had originally zeroed the rifle for a 280 yard zero, to give the bullet a 3" maximum rise (at 100y) from point blank out to maximum point blank range. This would make sense if used as a hunting rifle. Not sure exactly what the impact would be at 25 yards.

It appears from tables...that a 198grain bullet would only differ roughly 1/2" from a 154 grain bullet within 0-300 yards.

Are the 198 grain vs. 154 grain bullets show any very significant difference in accuracy within 100-300 yards? I know they didn't re-barrel and change twist rates. The 154s hold acceptable accuracy (within 200 yards) are compared to the 198 loads? I know 198 loads would be preferred for long range.

[Mobuck]

In some cases, the use of heavier bullets was to achieve longer ranging capabilities with machine guns. The use in rifles was a compromise to ease supply.
I found best accuracy with Nosler 180 BT in a couple of VZ24 sporters I have.

[Pathfinder45]

If you were me, you would ratchet that thing back up and try it again at 200 and 300 yards. But you're not..............

[firewrench044]

Most of the 8MM Mausers have had many owners ( countrys )
and their armorers adjusted the sights for the ammunition to
be used
The other thing you need to keep in mind is that the rear sight
will start at 100, 200 or 300 meters, there are some that have been
changed to yards and there is a third and forth measurements and I forgot
the names of
Surplus ammo of different bullet weights, powder charges and
age can cause a lot of confusion also
With all these variables, I have zeroed some rifles to my load ( 150gr
Sierra Game King that I worked up ), at what ever the range the rear sight starts at, the others I just compensate my aim for what ever ammo I am using at that time
I do hunt with 8MM Mauser ( very good dear cartage )
At present I am hunting with ether a VZ24 sniper or an M48 sniper
I have 12 other 8MM Mausers of various types all military none sporterized
You will get a variety of opinions as to witch bullet weight is best
My 150gr load is very accurate, so I am happy with it
except the load is too heavy for my 1894 Mausers, so I just use surplus ammo in them

[JJ45]

I have but one 8MM. A Russian capture with mixed serial numbers but in superb condition.... a 1938 Berlin Lubecker "transition" receiver as it has both Weimar Eagle stamps as well as Swastikas which have not been peened...the weapon also has a Brno (Bystrika) white laminate stock....made in Nazi occupied Czechoslovakia

Even though I have only one, being an incurable rifle nut, I reload for it and have found an excellent load using the Speer 200 grain spitzer and 52.5 gr H4350. There may be better powders but I load 30-06 and .243 and have it on hand.

I don't shoot it much but it does shoot about 4" high at 100 yards and this supposedly approximates "battle zero" with the issue sights. This is OK for me. I haven't taken it out hunting but I bet it would make a good all around N.American big game load.

[LE-28]

I use plain old Hornady interlock 150gr in mine and they shoot very accurately. The furthest I shot them was 500 yds and they were still accurate.
I was sending them out at close to 2900fps and used them on deer but they just did to much damage when the hit.

[emcon5]

Pretty likely that there will be a difference in accuracy, simply because your rifle will like one more than the other.

The 198 will have a little less wind, but that probably won't be all that noticeable at 300. Farther, definitely.

With the same point of aim, it is pretty unlikely they will have the same point of impact.

[Gregory Gauvin]

I understand the different grain bullets will have a different POI, but, from 0-100 yards I am assuming this isn't going to be extreme. An inch or two at MOST and that's pushing it. Generally, from what I understand is that heavier bullets shoot a tad higher.

I wanted to get a solid 100 yard base zero. And ratchet it out. Bare in mind, military sights were removed and fitted with Lyman 57 SME peep sights (rear .040" and front 1/16th bead). 1/4 clicks. Very precise setup.

Unfortunately, by the 25th round, a crack in the tang of the stock developed.

[Jimro]

The twist rate for 8x57 is 1 in 240mm or 1:9.45 inches.

It is much tighter than needed for even the 198gr FMJBT projectiles, but that is fine.

Another reason why you would have been hitting the TOP of a standard target at 100 is that the previous owner set up the sights for a 6 o'clock hold instead of poa=poi hold. It is common, especially for shooting High Power to use a 6 o'clock hold.

12 clicks may or may not be 1/4 minute adjustments, it depends on the distance between rear and front sight for what the actual click value is. The longer the distance, the smaller the click value, the shorter the distance the larger the value.

Hope you enjoy that rifle.

Jimro

[Roughedge]

I use the Hornandy 170gr SST and so far it works great on deer and muskrats.

[wpsdlrg]

Jimro (already) said just what I was going to say....so no need repeating it.

I'll add though, that I prefer bullets in the 170 grain range, in my Yugo M48 sporter. Less recoil than the heavy bullets, but they will still get the job done on game, if hunting is to be done with any of your 8mm rifles. 150's will certainly work too, though. In fact, I used to shoot lots of the Hornady 150 grain SP's. Very good bullet for the 8mm.

My current favorite is the Hornady 170 grain round-nose soft point. I get great accuracy with a reduced load.....loaded to about the same velocity as a 30/30 (I can't stand the recoil of full-house 8mm Mauser loads anymore). I only shoot my M48 out to about 200 yards, though.

The most accurate bullet I've ever found for the rifle is the Sierra 175 grain soft-point.

The Nosler 180 grain Partition also works well, as does the Remington 185 grain SP.

All of the bullets I've mentioned will shoot to different POI, with comparable loads. The trick is to find a bullet that works for you (based on your intended purpose, etc.).....work up an accurate load with that bullet....and stick to it.

Frankly, at this point in life, I am becoming recoil sensitive. So, I may switch to the 150's myself....and stick with them in future.

[Gregory Gauvin]

How much variant are you seeing between the POI in the various loads (150grn vs. 170s)?

Sight radius of the lyman sights I measured to be 26 3/4"

Also...I shoot with a 6'Oclock hold. So previous owner had elevation cranked out. POA/POI would have made gun shoot even higher. Story has it, the M1924 made it's way to Russia, before getting to America and was given to my Uncle's father who never used the rifle back in the 60s or so. I'm thinking...from what I have heard...8mm being somewhat overkill on deer, the rifle was sporterized for long range hunting in Russia. Possibly on large game? Anyhow, weren't most M1924s converted to M24/47's?

[LE-28]

I didn't really notice much of a change in poi with going from 196 to 150 gr but I was mostly emptying factory loads to reload.

One click up on the military sights put the 150gr loads at 0@100yds. I used the 500 meter mark for around 570yds and it shot about a 6"low.

I was pretty much amazed at how well it shot those light bullets.

[LE-28]

I doubt you will see much of any. I only saw about an inch from going from 196 gr to 150gr. From 170 to 150 probably not much at all.

[wpsdlrg]

No way someone can give you a precise picture of the difference in POI vs. POA with various bullets, because that is entirely dependent on the specific loads used - and it is somewhat dependent on your particular rifle. The best I can say is that there will be a difference in POI, with different bullets and bullet weights.

You need to choose a bullet/ load, or several of them.... work up some loads and get to testing. That is the only way you will know for sure.

As to where your rifle was/ is zeroed, it may depend on the front sight used. The original zero for the Yugo Mausers, with original sights, was 300 metres. If the previous owner substituted an aftermarket rear sight, but left the original front sight, or installed one of similar height, then the zero point may not have changed much. In any case, you can't get all of this figured out on the internet. The shooting range is where you need to be - to get the answers you need.

Yes, most Yugo M1924's were converted to M24/47's. There are a few M1924's that made their way out of Yugoslavia and thus were not converted. Not a lot of them around, though.

[Jimro]

Also...I shoot with a 6'Oclock hold. So previous owner had elevation cranked out. POA/POI would have made gun shoot even higher. Story has it, the M1924 made it's way to Russia, before getting to America and was given to my Uncle's father who never used the rifle back in the 60s or so. I'm thinking...from what I have heard...8mm being somewhat overkill on deer, the rifle was sporterized for long range hunting in Russia. Possibly on large game? Anyhow, weren't most M1924s converted to M24/47's?

I highly doubt the Russia story, after the October Revolution private ownership of firearms was extremely uncommon, and Lyman sights aren't something you find on Russian imports of any type.

However, putting aperture sights on a milsurp bolt action rifle and using it for competition was very common in Europe and the US. The Danish Schulz & Larsen competition rifles based on M96 and M98 Mausers are collectors items now, but still quite good shooters.

In the US the sport was High Power, as you could use any bolt action rifle with aperture sights as a match rifle, and in Europe several sports including fullbore, biathlon, and free rifle were pretty popular: (good article about older biathlon rifles with nice pics) http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.de/...-could-be.html

If the previous owner used the rifle as a match rifle, High Power starts at the 200 yard line then 300 and finally 600 (although there are reduced distance matches) so if the previous owner ended a match with the sights to a longer distance. It makes sense that a 100 yard zero would be pretty darn high if it were zeroed for the midrange 300 or longer range 600.

If the Lyman 57 rear sight is finger adjustable, odds are the rifle was set up for competition. If the rear sight is tool adjustable odds are it was set up for hunting.

Jimro

[Gregory Gauvin]

Well...the rifle was given to my uncle's father from a Russian guy, who migrated to the states. When I got the rifle...there was no rear aperture. The only sensible theory I can come up with, is that, the aperture removed for a larger rear peep (the threaded hole) for use in hunting application, per Lyman manual. I installed a .040" peep sight.

As far as the gun used as competition? The 8x57 isn't exactly the trophy winner of caliber choice...and why use a cheap, run of the mill 1950s era sporter stock? Wouldn't a competition gun be better set up with a beefier stock...not drilled out and feather weighted? Lastly, the bolt face, locking locks, bolt, action, and particularity the condition of the bore...had barely been shot. The last time the gun was fired was 46 years ago or so, my uncle took two shots with it when he was nine. Gun put away. His father never used it. He hunted with a .30-06. Somebody spent some time cutting/welding/sweeping the bolt...installing Lymans...jeweling the bolt body...yet, I can tell the rifle was barely, if at all, fired after all this.

[Jimro]

It could be someone set it up as a hunting rifle, but my guess is they would have used the cheaper rear sight instead of the finger adjustable rear sight. I saw the sling on the picture you posted, and that loop sling is commonly used for competition, not so much for hunting. If the sling came with the rifle it was put there by someone who planned on shooting it prone, slung up.

NRA High Power rules allow any caliber under .35 so 8x57 would qualify under match rifle rules. Since it is a relatively easy process to form 8x57 brass from 30-06, and 8mm bullets aren't exactly rare, it looks like someone wanted a cheap match rifle and weren't afraid of doing the work to load there own. I have an acquaintance who still shoots 8x57 in 200 yard matches (same course of fire as a 200 yard Garand match).

None of this is a slam dunk case though, someone could have just preferred finger adjustable sights on their hunting rifle, and learned how to use a loop sling in the military and decided to use that on all their rifles (if the sling came with the rifle, I don't know). Based on the stock cracking though, it looks like someone built it, then never fired it. But it looks like a match rifle from the 50s, and if it was then the cheap sporter stock makes a good deal of sense, the military stock was designed for a lower line of sight and the monte carlo style comb would raise the eye quite nicely.

No way to tell, but it might be fun to get some of the Hornady 200gr 8x57 match ammo and see how she groups for you.

Jimro

[chiefr]

Years of shooting 8mm Mausers from the Gew 88s, Kar 98s, Gewer 98s of WW I to the WWII 98s, have taught me bullets of 196gr give the best accuracy.

They were designed to shoot these heavy bullets. For years, I have heard people complain about poor accuracy out of 8mm Mauser rifles. Try using bullets these rifles were designed to shoot and it shoot and it should make a big difference.

Another problem is finding correct factory ammo. American MFGs seem to like lighter weight bullets while European such as PP use correct bullets.

I use PP 196gr spitzer boat tail bullets with my reloads and what a difference they make.

[Gregory Gauvin]

Once complete I may run handloads to tune it up for accuracy.

[wpsdlrg]

That would be best, because you'll likely never realize it's potential without hand loads. Unfortunately, most of the proprietary 8mm ammo out there is "dung", relatively speaking.

[Gregory Gauvin]

So I have heard. Because of the risk of firing 8x57 Mauser out of a .318 bore.
I recently looked up the ballistics of PPU ammunition. The PPU ammunition I have fired in the past deemed to be quite accurate and of good quality. I have not fired any of their 8mm Mauser ammunition, however.

(All ballistic tests from 24" barrel)

PPU - 8x57 Mauser:

175grn @ 2329ft/sec
198grn @ 2182ft/sec

PPU - .30-06

150grn @ 2749ft/sec (A-612) - M1 Ball load equivalent?
150grn @ 2903ft/sec (A-094)
175grn @ 2723ft/sec
190grn @ 2625ft/sec

PPU - .308 Win

150grn @ 2903ft/sec
175grn @ 2592ft/sec
190grn @ 2477ft/sec

PPU - 300 win mag

150grn @ 3248ft/sec
170grn @ 2871ft/sec

These commercial 8x57 loads are puppy dogs. The 308win outclasses them. The 154grn Turkish loads clock in 2900ft/sec, however, some chronograph results gave them an average of 3058ft/sec. Seems to be an intermediary cartridge between the .308 and 300 win mag with an intermediate length action. Don't see why the 8x57 is more popular among hunting rifles as, if you are a reloader, have the ability to download them to levels appropriate as to not overkill smaller game such as deer as compared to moose, where you can push them to energy levels close to that of a 300 win mag without stepping up to a long, belted magnum case/action.

I develop loads for accuracy - not power. I'm not a hunter. So, whether I tweak a load on the low spectrum or hotter spectrum, it is what it is. I start load development at minimum load and work up until I hit the first accuracy node. I see no reason to beat myself, my guns, and my wallet apart to put holes in paper.

[wpsdlrg]

Gregory, I agree with you. I wasn't referring to commercial Mauser ammo as "dung" in terms of power, but instead accuracy in a particular rifle. (though I did not make that clear... ooops.) Sorry for the confusion.

I only load just hot enough to get the job done. I used to hunt, so I loaded accordingly (but never maximum loads). Now, I load strictly for accuracy. In fact, my current favorite 8mm load mimics the ballistics of a 30/30 - wimpy, by 8mm standards - but darned accurate in my rifle.

You said it very well: why beat yourself up in order to punch holes in paper.

[emcon5]

When the 8X57 was introduced, it had a 0.318 bore, and was later changed to .323, and because of this, most of the ammo you can get in the US is crap.

US manufacturers were afraid some dimwit would try and shoot a full power .323 through their .318 bore Gewehr 88 and blow up the gun, and hurt themselves. Europeans figured if you don't know what ammo your gun can safely shoot, you are a moron and deserve whatever happens to you.

Regardless, there are two specifications for what we call 8mm Mauser, the US SAMMI spec "8MM Mauser", which has a max pressure of 35K psi, and the CIP "8x57 IS" which has a max pressure of ~56K psi. To further muddy the waters, "8x57 IS" is often written as "8x57 JS, evidently because the Germans used a Gothic script, and the I looked like a J.

Generally, what you can get in the US is "8MM Mauser", and it the anemic SAMMI spec.

Privi Partisan actually makes both, if you look at their online catalog, they have entries for both "8MM Mauser" and "8x57 IS", with the latter having a higher velocity for the same bullet. For example, the "8x57" IS 198 gr FMJ is 2425 FPS, (essentially the 1934+ military load), but the "8MM Mauser" 198 gr FMJ is only 2180 FPS. Naturally, they only sell the wimpy stuff in the US.

Wolf Gold is made by Privi and loaded to 8x57 IS specs, 196 gr SP @ 2461 fps, but I haven't seen it around in a while.

Remington's and Winchester's only offerings is 170 gr @ 2360fps. Federal's only option is even wimpier 170gr @ 2250 FPS.

These are barely over the velocity as the starting load in my Sierra and Hornady manuals for similar weight bullets.

Hornady and Nosler seem to be the only US folks making "real" 8x57 ammo, Hornady has two options, a 195 hunting bullet and a 196 gr match, both @ 2500 FPS, which is pretty close to the original military load.

Nosler has a 200gr AccuBond or Partition at 2475 fps, and a 180gr Ballistic tip at 2600 FPS, but they are really proud of them, at about $2.50 per round.

Seller & Belot and Norma both make a few 196 loads at ~2600 FPS, but availability is spotty, and while the price on the S&B is decent, the Norma stuff is up in the $2.50/round neighborhood.

[Gregory Gauvin]

That's some great information. Thanks. Surplus 8mm is still around. I have seen a lot of Yugo surplus, but stay away from it because usually every other goes "click" and no bang.

The Turkish 154grn surplus load has been noted to be very consistent. And I would have to agree with this. As I acquired some groups with it I did not expect from old surplus. I measured 5 rounds, and there is very little difference in OAL. I'm talking +/- .002" at most. They sure put a HEAVY crimp on them. I pulled a round (took me 50 HARD wacks with bullet puller) and the bullet was spot on the money at 154grns. I haven't yet weighed the charged - not that it matters, but, for curiosity sake. I do not recognize the powder. It is some type of flake powder. Odd in color, and shaped differently than flake powders I am familiar with. The flakes are very square and larger then normal flake powders I've come across.

I will post pictures as soon as I get off this Mac that won't let me open my files. I have been having computer troubles...my desktop loaded up with 83 viruses when downloading TurboTax and I cannot clear it out. And Two days ago the motherboard on my laptop STB.

I roughly weighed the powder charge. I didn't feel like going to extra mile and digging out my safety scale, so I used my digital scale (which is accurate as I measured 230 grain .45 ACP bullets and they were spot on). Assuming the plastic drinking cups are of equal weight, the powder charge is 48 grains max. I would say 46-48 grains.