Things may be getting worse for honest gun owners in the EU.

[Pond, James Pond]

There are few things I find more distasteful than public servants abusing the public. Especially when it is under the guise of action in the name of said public and the public just taking it at face value.

The recent atrocities in France have sadly been used to forward a proposal to tighten the EU-wide regulations that govern gun ownership. They must have been just waiting there for the opportunity to make its debut.

So to combat international illegal arms trading, international terrorism and the illicit routes for these supplies from the middle east, they are:
-not tightening EU border policies and practices
-not investing more in Serious Crime units and counter-terrorism.

They are:
-planning to ensure that EU citizens that jumped through a dozen hoops to own a semi-auto in order to enjoy IPSC, will no longer be able to...

If all the guns in either of the most recent attacks (or indeed any) had come from careless gun ownership or shoddy implementation of the current safeguards, I might understand it (although I'd say "make the current rules apply rather than draughting new ones), but they didn't...
They were smuggled in from either Africa or Asia.

But let's see: which is easier? Controlling traffickers in some of the most dangerous territories in the world, or ruining the hobby for a few thousand responsible gun owners in the EU area?

Then again.... What does that matter, as long as the great unwashed think you're doing something, right?

After all, once elected into office the only thing that counts is staying there, whether or not you actually make a difference and fix problems being is secondary as long as you can get the masses to think (or should I say believe) you're making a difference and fixing things.

All this makes me quite sick as I've seen it done on a number of issues that I am passionate about: education, environment and firearms to name but a small few.

So the death of democracy will not be from a bunch of lunatics running around trying to re-create the middle-ages it will be from self-serving politicians pandering to a population who have forgotten how to think for themselves and actually question what their told once in a while...
That is not democracy it is a parody thereof.

Rant over... and wish us all luck over here...

[Brit]

James, Jump a plane, fly into NY City, "On Holiday" do what the rest do, just stay. If you are single? Your cute accent will find you a nice American female... Ring Ring, wedding bells. Three years after the marriage, citizenship.

My accent collected all kinds of woman (And I had a Wife in tow) my very shy Wife? "He is with me!" Was her instant response. Broke me up.

[kilimanjaro]

Not to get into conspiracy theories, but if there isn't a direct link between a disarmed populace and a political class deliberately bringing in waves of hostile foreign invaders 'to permanently change Europe for good', I'd like to hear about it.

[Pond, James Pond]

James, Jump a plane, fly into NY City, "On Holiday" do what the rest do, just stay. If you are single? Your cute accent will find you a nice American female... Ring Ring, wedding bells. Three years after the marriage, citizenship.

My accent collected all kinds of woman (And I had a Wife in tow) my very shy Wife? "He is with me!" Was her instant response. Broke me up.

My wife might object.

On a serious note, I don't want to live anywhere else, TBH.
I like it here and this is not an Estonian initiative, but an EU one, and my feeling is that by-and-large the Estonian government might not even be "for" it.

Some remember what it was to have the Soviets "collect" what firearms there were.

Not to get into conspiracy theories, but if there isn't a direct link between a disarmed populace and a political class deliberately bringing in waves of hostile foreign invaders 'to permanently change Europe for good', I'd like to hear about it.

I don't buy that anymore than I buy all the foreigners coming in being hostile. I am pretty sure the vast majority are just people trying to find somewhere safe and stable to live, at worst, they just want to get in on a cushier lifestyle. Those who come to kill I think are a very small, yet persuasive, minority, IMHO.

The bottom line is this is still slap-dash policy making: "the plebs are stirring: throw them a token effort." Blanket bans are always easier than addressing the root cause.

[Tom Servo]

I always take issue with the "well, just move!" posts. That's not always a feasible option for people with mortgages, jobs, and families.

Furthermore, if everyone left the afflicted areas, who would stay to fight such laws?

[Crankgrinder]

I haven't been on in some time but, the slogan here (and the truth) is that in Paris only the bad guys had guns and the death toll was so much greater because of it. Those weapons used in Paris were not sold to them by lawful hobbyist they were smuggled in by criminals with no more regard for the law than they had for human life. New laws will be obeyed by those who respect laws but they'll just be met with the same disregard by the same people as before. You know all of this but there is no organization or not enough of it to force the hand of their governments. Thank God here we have the NRA and the support of a large part of the public here and that our politicians have seen enough of their associates careers sacrificed to know it can happen to them. The same thing is needed in Europe I think.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond

The recent atrocities in France have sadly been used to forward a proposal to tighten the EU-wide regulations that govern gun ownership. They must have been just waiting there for the opportunity to make its debut.

Correct; in April the European Commission said the Firearms Directive would be modified in 2016 and the proposals have been circulating for a while. The Paris attacks only gave the EC an excuse to move forward more quickly and with less debate.

[Armed_Chicagoan]

Originally Posted by Brit

James, Jump a plane, fly into NY City, "On Holiday" do what the rest do, just stay. If you are single? Your cute accent will find you a nice American female... Ring Ring, wedding bells. Three years after the marriage, citizenship.

Surely you know it's not that simple? I have a friend from London who was legally working here, met and married an American, and still had to fight for over 5 years to get the right to stay. I know a woman who married an Irish national who was here illegally, he is still fighting deportation orders. None of the marriages were shams either.

[Aguila Blanca]

If the threat of terrorism disrupts daily life and prevents citizens of [___] from going places they would otherwise want to go, the terrorists have won.

If the threat of terrorism results in the politicritters disarming the law-abiding citizenry, thus making the next terrorist attack(s) orders of magnitude easier and safer for the terrorists, the terrorists have won in spades.

[Brit]

Armed_Chicagoan

You seem to be a singular person in the Chicago I have visited in he past! AS in being Armed.

I am a person who has been in Germany in the British Army, lived in England till I was 30, the Australia for 3 years, so called moved to Aus, for life, the Wife I had then, hated Australia the minute we landed.
I said I am not going back to England broke! Which we would have been, had we returned, before we had been at least in Australia for 3 years, so we did, then off to Canada. For 35 years, loved it... But not the 6 month Winters, was always a fan of America, Cowboys, and guns!

My Son moved first, he talked us into following him, I became a citizen first, 2011, then my Wife, in 2015.

My Home, is where I hang my hat! We are very happy here, met many really nice people, AND THE WEATHER!!! Did I manage in Canada? All wheel drive Jeep, I can manage the weather, no problem. But THE WEATHER!

So to suggest to our James, jump a plane? Half in Jest, he is a good Guy, is a serious individual. So to have him come to the best Country in the World?
Not a bad idea.

I did, and have not looked back, at 80 years of age? I guess I am staying put.
For you people born in the US of A? Do you find it is not the best Country in the World? Like I do? And I have lived in 4 others.

[jstert]

it is very sad to guess what will happen to lawful gun owners in europe. a truly free person holds the innate right to peaceably bear arms. the u.s. revolution started when the crown tried to seize not a printing press but the colonials' arsenal. sad but tough truth: a disarmed citizen is a serf who, regardless of the high culture and social amenities enjoyed in 21st century europe, will always live at the discretion of those who are armed. "those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither." -- ben franklin.

[JimPage]

Amen!

[Kimio]

@Brit As an American born 3rd Gen Japanese and 2nd Gen Thai, I just find America to be in very disconcerting times.

While things have indeed improved for gun owners over the past decade or so, I'm more concerned, with the general increasing ignorance of the populace, chiefly my generation in particular.

We are better off (so far) than many other nations, especially when it comes to gun ownership, but America seems to have lost a lot of what made it great IMO, at least when I base it off of what we used to be like back about 6-7 decades ago.

Not to say we haven't made great progress in other areas, such as civil rights and such.

However, with the kind of people that are getting voted in, I am deeply concerned about folks deciding to give up their 2A rights for the brief period of feeling safe (even though they're not).

That's the cynic in me I suppose, I've lost a great deal of faith with many things sadly, especially with the people actually voting someone into the chairs of power that actually have a brain.

[JimPage]

Kimio: you are correct. Look at the POTUS for example. He openly calls for gun confiscation now.

[44 AMP]

Look at the POTUS for example. He openly calls for gun confiscation now.

He can (and is) calling for every pipe dream he ever had, now. He cannot run for re-election (now), and so has no worries about keeping his popularity.

To date, no one has held two terms, skipped one and come back to hold another, and it looks really doubtful anyone ever will, so this is his last hurrah, he's in power until the next inauguration, and then he's out, for good.

What the decent people of Europe have to worry about most (from their governments) is the use of the Paris Attacks (and any subsequent) as a "Reichstag Fire".

[doofus47]

Pond

(although I'd say "make the current rules apply rather than draughting new ones), but they didn't...

Yeah, the "sanity defense" didn't work for us either.
Agree that most refugees just want to get out of the fire zone so they can live their lives and raise families in peace.
If US history is any teacher, expect the second generation descendents of immigrants who are cut off from the old culture their parents are still trying to live and the foreign native culture of the country they ended up in to be the trouble makers who lash out.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

To date, no one has held two terms, skipped one and come back to hold another...

...except Grover Cleveland, who was both the 22nd and 24th POTUS. [EDIT: See correction below]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

What the decent people of Europe have to worry about most (from their governments) is the use of the Paris Attacks (and any subsequent) as a "Reichstag Fire".

Heartily agreed; although harsher gun-control measures are certainly bad for some Europeans, the bigger picture is the possibility of what may come next.

Furthermore, given some of the American political rhetoric that's followed the Paris attacks, citizens of the USA need to be cognizant of this as well. Recent jihad-inspired attacks in the USA have arguably been failures [e.g. Curtis Culwell Center], but our luck likely won't hold out forever in this regard.

[44 AMP]

...except Grover Cleveland, who was both the 22nd and 24th POTUS.

True, but Cleveland only served TWO terms, TOTAL.

He won the popular vote for what would have been his second (consecutive) term, but lost the election in the Electoral College, and Harrison was elected President.

Cleveland had one term, skipped one, and had another.

To date, no one has had TWO terms, skipped one and won another. No one I can recall (since FDR) has even run again, after having two consecutive terms.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Cleveland had one term, skipped one, and had another.

To date, no one has had TWO terms, skipped one and won another.

You're right, my bad.

I somehow read the initial post as "...To date, no one has held two terms, skipping one to come back to hold another..."

Dunno how I did that, lack of caffeine perhaps.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

[Tom Servo]

No one I can recall (since FDR) has even run again, after having two consecutive terms.

Historians are divided on whether or not Truman wanted to. It's doubtful he'd have won in any case.

FDR's four terms were the spur for Republicans to push the 22nd Amendment, but Truman would have been exempted had he chose to run.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

I always take issue with the "well, just move!" posts. That's not always a feasible option for people with mortgages, jobs, and families.

I agree. Just lining up a decent job in another state, much less another country, can be a daunting task. Add in other factors like the welfare of children and I doubt many would take the bite of moving solely for 2nd Amendment issues.

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Furthermore, if everyone left the afflicted areas, who would stay to fight such laws?

I'd say some areas have reached the point of no return regarding excessive gun control laws. California, New York and Massachusetts would be a few U.S. states as examples. And, if everyone who was against gun control left a particular state with excessive gun control laws, the remaining people in that state could enjoy them to their hearts content

[Tom Servo]

I'd say some areas have reached the point of no return regarding excessive gun control laws.

I'm not sure there is a point of no return. Consider Illinois. A few years ago, it looked as if they'd never see concealed carry there.

[barnbwt]

"So the death of democracy will not be from a bunch of lunatics running around trying to re-create the middle-ages it will be from self-serving politicians pandering to a population who have forgotten how to think for themselves and actually question what their told once in a while"
This is how all democracies die. Rome could have easily held off the hordes, they even should have been able to --but the progressive rot of incompetent government, inherited mediocrity, and lead poisoning* degraded their ability to do what was necessary; what would have been the instinctive response during earlier periods of their history.

Europe is slated for a similar decline, with one major exception; the EU has no standing army, for now. They can threaten and bluster all they want with economic sanctions, but when faced with a real threat, these tools will falter and member states will look to their own. No one wants to sanction a neighbor who may they may need to fight alongside of in the near future, and no national government will promote foreign policies so unpopular at home as to threaten its existence. Unless there is military threat present.

Which is why I fully expect the EU to muster a trans-national military force in the near future, nominally to counter Russia/ISIS, but in reality to subjugate member states' governing bodies.

"four terms were the spur for Republicans to push the 22nd Amendment"
Well, that coupled with all the other crazy crap his administration pulled or tried to pull during the Depression & WWII. Another term would have had him banning the Republican Party outright, or suspending elections.

TCB

*I fully expect that the history books written by the Chinese or whomever, will record that excessive media intake by society directly led to structural hesitation and indecision dominating our strategies. Paralysis by analysis, at a civilizational level. Either that, or all the fluoride in the water made the leaders as dumb as the rest of us

[barnbwt]

"What the decent people of Europe have to worry about most (from their governments) is the use of the Paris Attacks (and any subsequent) as a "Reichstag Fire"."
What with what's-his-face in France demanding freer reign to suspend civil liberties, for the purpose of restoring civil liberties, I'd say it's a bit late for that. The real question is whether the leadership possesses the will to power of the nascent Nazi party, or whether the people possess the will to freedom to resist it in the face of partly-real-partly-trumped-up fear. I suspect the results will not be uniform across the region, the East rising to the occasion more so than the West.

TCB

[Branko]

Yeah, this is terrible news. If you're from the EU - as I am - there's a petition being circulated. Doubtful they'll take notice, but do take two minutes to sign it:

https://www.change.org/p/council-of-...-gun-ownership