Epoxy scope bases?

M14 · December 20, 2010, 03:52 PM

I know this smacks of bubba gunsmithing, but I have a "sporterized" M1917 Enfield that I paid $100 for. I would like to put a scope on it, but it's not drilled & tapped. I was thinking of epoxying the bases on. I hate to spend $100 to have it drilled & tapped. It might actually cost more as the "swimming pool" was never filled in when the ears were ground off. Also some gunsmiths run screaming when you mention drilling & tapping a M1917 Enfield. Any thoughts would be appreciated, but no comments about my mother.

Cork

mapsjanhere · December 20, 2010, 04:31 PM

The problem with expoxy to mount scope bases is finding the right stuff. You need a very tough material to withstand the forces, standard "Walmart two-part epoxy" will last a good while, and then your scope will fall off due to brittle failure. If you're lucky, it's during the hunt and it will land in mud, if not, it will land on the concrete base of your range.
The second issue is to find a base that is truly conformal with your receiver. Adhesives do well at a given very precisely held thickness, and fail miserably if your base sits metal to metal on the sides and is hollow in the center. This greatly enhances your issues of thermal expansion mismatch, your receiver will expand differently from the epoxy and, worst case, the aluminum bases. And for a gun with conceivably a 200 F difference between cold winter and hot barrel, these thermal issues are huge.
We've experimented here with some really high strength stuff that gives you 4000 psi in shear, but that stuff is $50 a jar from specialty stores selling to marine equipment makers to glue in fiber reinforced masts.
Oh, and the problem of getting the glued bases aligned to +-10 MOA so you can still center the scope.
I'd say the gun smith is the easier option.

Dfariswheel · December 20, 2010, 07:41 PM

The short answer is: Epoxy will not hold a scope on a rifle.
The mount would probably pop off with the first or second shot.

If adhesives would hold a mount on, manufactures would be using it instead of expensive drilling and tapping of holes.
They don't because it won't.

johnbt · December 20, 2010, 08:49 PM

I know you're right, but I want to try it with Gorilla Glue. I need to find a cheap gun and scope, I have the glue.

It would be a mess to look at considering how much the stuff foams up, but I'm impressed with its holding power after using it for a few years.

The Gorilla Tape is almost as good, but will come off if need be.

guncrank · December 21, 2010, 07:53 AM

The problem with glue to hold base and rings and scope is that glue is not made to with stand the shear force on firing.
The gun fires and moves but interia cause the scope to stay in place.
Of course with screws it does the same but the screw has a mechanical joint

CEW

guncrank · December 21, 2010, 07:56 AM

I have used both for bigger kicker and light weight guns and heavier scopes.

Ideal Tool · December 21, 2010, 08:41 PM

Red Green woulda used camo duct tape!

Ideal Tool · December 22, 2010, 02:04 AM

Sorry about that last crack...couldn't help myself! On a more serious note...I'm at work, and for some reason kept thinking of your problem...Have you thought of soft-soldering steel bases on? I'm thinking low temp. silver solder would more than likely require too much heat in this critical area..but a good strong solder shouldn,t hurt. I know the Germans used to solder ribs &
claw mounts on their sporters. And of course the British used it on their double rifles. Best of luck!

Clark · December 22, 2010, 03:24 PM

I have tried the epoxy alone. The scope pops off with the first shot.

I have drilled and tapped ~100 rifles. You may be able to do it yourself.

g.willikers · December 22, 2010, 07:06 PM

No, no, not duct tape!
Hose clamps.

But seriously, as has been said, glues and epoxys are pretty good in tension, but not so good in shear.
For something as hefty as a scope and mount, mechanical attachment is best.
Does anyone make a receiver side mount to hold a scope for this gun?
Preferably one that uses existing pins or screws?
Just a thought.

Dfariswheel · December 22, 2010, 08:26 PM

Gorilla Glue is no where near as strong as a good epoxy.

If you absolutely must try it, buy a high grade epoxy from Brownell's.

M14 · December 23, 2010, 05:08 PM

Although using hose clamps intrigues me, I took my Enfield to a gunsmith for drilling & tapping. It will cost $60 ($40 to drill & tap; $20 to fill the swimming pool). I can't wait to see how it does at 100 yd. once I mount a scope.

Cork

**Unclenick** · December 23, 2010, 11:22 PM

A late friend of mine serviced helicopters in Vietnam (in Thailand, actually, but for the war). He told me the skin of helicopter rotary wings is held onto the frame with a Boeing adhesive. There are some tough glues out there, but they are mostly industrial products with a specific bonding requirement. For example, we all know what super glue is. Get an industrial super glue catalog and you'll find you've got twenty or thirty to choose from. One's best for rubber on glass, another does aluminum to PVC, etc. You'd want aluminum to steel, but I'll bet you'd have to scrape the profiles to a fit before it would work.

jimbob86 · December 24, 2010, 12:12 AM

Quote:

but I want to try it with Gorilla Glue.

Gorilla glue does not work well with non-porous, smooth surfaces.

Slopemeno · December 24, 2010, 03:02 AM

The wing skins on later B-52's are epoxied on as well.

My guess- a bolt action probably flexes too much. Drill and tap.

brickeyee · December 24, 2010, 08:19 AM

Quote:

The wing skins on later B-52's are epoxied on as well.

The skins do not see the kind of shock loading a scope mount does.

Elkins45 · December 24, 2010, 08:57 AM

Once upon a time I used epoxy to help me locate the bases on a 98 Mauser for home drilling. I mounted a factory new (and therefore centered) scope and clamped the bases to it at the correct spacing. I then clamped the rifle in a vise and 'bore sighted' the scope and bases so they were correctly aligned and then epoxied the bases in that position.

After it hardened I removed the scope and just drilled through the holes in the scope bases. It seemed to work OK.

brickeyee · December 24, 2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

After it hardened I removed the scope and just drilled through the holes in the scope bases. It seemed to work OK.

As a way locate for drilling it works.

It also can be used to fit bases to a less than perfectly machined action, but the screws are doing most of the real holding.

teeroux · December 24, 2010, 04:52 PM

JB weld

Bill DeShivs · December 24, 2010, 06:48 PM

I was waiting for that!

hooligan1 · December 25, 2010, 01:10 PM

Brazing might of worked but looks bad.:barf: J B Weld would work if you got them cleaned up good,,,,,,you're not serious really?,

Totally DO NOT GLUE ANYTHING TO THAT RIFLE!!!!

(unless its a picture of your girlfriend)

700cdl · December 29, 2010, 03:29 PM

My Dad glued everything with JB Weld and epoxy, but for this purpose it would fall off and likely ruin an optic.

wncchester · January 5, 2011, 02:58 PM

IF you use any type of adhesive put a short length of nylon cord around both the scope and the rifle. A short leash will keep the scope from hitting the ground too hard.

Recoiljunky · January 12, 2011, 08:31 PM

Why not just bust out the tig wielder it would work alot better

Win_94 · January 13, 2011, 05:36 AM

B-Square Scope Base & Rings for US 1917 Enfield

I think this is the one I was going to buy for mine a few years ago. There was no drilling or tapping involved.

I don't think it would be all that stable; it seemed to be held by the single screw holding the ladder sight on.

December 20, 2010, 03:52 PM	#1
M14 Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2006 Location: Southwest Michigan Posts: 110	Epoxy scope bases? I know this smacks of bubba gunsmithing, but I have a "sporterized" M1917 Enfield that I paid $100 for. I would like to put a scope on it, but it's not drilled & tapped. I was thinking of epoxying the bases on. I hate to spend $100 to have it drilled & tapped. It might actually cost more as the "swimming pool" was never filled in when the ears were ground off. Also some gunsmiths run screaming when you mention drilling & tapping a M1917 Enfield. Any thoughts would be appreciated, but no comments about my mother. Cork __________________ Strangers in the night exchanging tracers.

December 20, 2010, 04:31 PM	#2
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	The problem with expoxy to mount scope bases is finding the right stuff. You need a very tough material to withstand the forces, standard "Walmart two-part epoxy" will last a good while, and then your scope will fall off due to brittle failure. If you're lucky, it's during the hunt and it will land in mud, if not, it will land on the concrete base of your range. The second issue is to find a base that is truly conformal with your receiver. Adhesives do well at a given very precisely held thickness, and fail miserably if your base sits metal to metal on the sides and is hollow in the center. This greatly enhances your issues of thermal expansion mismatch, your receiver will expand differently from the epoxy and, worst case, the aluminum bases. And for a gun with conceivably a 200 F difference between cold winter and hot barrel, these thermal issues are huge. We've experimented here with some really high strength stuff that gives you 4000 psi in shear, but that stuff is $50 a jar from specialty stores selling to marine equipment makers to glue in fiber reinforced masts. Oh, and the problem of getting the glued bases aligned to +-10 MOA so you can still center the scope. I'd say the gun smith is the easier option. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

December 21, 2010, 07:53 AM	#5
guncrank Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2006 Location: Fern Creek ,KY and Metro Louisville at large Posts: 430	The problem with glue to hold base and rings and scope is that glue is not made to with stand the shear force on firing. The gun fires and moves but interia cause the scope to stay in place. Of course with screws it does the same but the screw has a mechanical joint CEW __________________ Republic Arms and Armaments 07 1-502-231-1118 Machine Shop and Finishing Services to the trade and public

December 21, 2010, 07:56 AM	#6
guncrank Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2006 Location: Fern Creek ,KY and Metro Louisville at large Posts: 430	I have used both for bigger kicker and light weight guns and heavier scopes. __________________ Republic Arms and Armaments 07 1-502-231-1118 Machine Shop and Finishing Services to the trade and public

December 23, 2010, 05:08 PM	#12
M14 Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2006 Location: Southwest Michigan Posts: 110	Although using hose clamps intrigues me, I took my Enfield to a gunsmith for drilling & tapping. It will cost $60 ($40 to drill & tap; $20 to fill the swimming pool). I can't wait to see how it does at 100 yd. once I mount a scope. Cork __________________ Strangers in the night exchanging tracers.

December 20, 2010, 07:41 PM	#3
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	The short answer is: Epoxy will not hold a scope on a rifle. The mount would probably pop off with the first or second shot. If adhesives would hold a mount on, manufactures would be using it instead of expensive drilling and tapping of holes. They don't because it won't.

December 20, 2010, 08:49 PM	#4
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	I know you're right, but I want to try it with Gorilla Glue. I need to find a cheap gun and scope, I have the glue. It would be a mess to look at considering how much the stuff foams up, but I'm impressed with its holding power after using it for a few years. The Gorilla Tape is almost as good, but will come off if need be.

December 21, 2010, 08:41 PM	#7
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Red Green woulda used camo duct tape!

December 22, 2010, 02:04 AM	#8
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Sorry about that last crack...couldn't help myself! On a more serious note...I'm at work, and for some reason kept thinking of your problem...Have you thought of soft-soldering steel bases on? I'm thinking low temp. silver solder would more than likely require too much heat in this critical area..but a good strong solder shouldn,t hurt. I know the Germans used to solder ribs & claw mounts on their sporters. And of course the British used it on their double rifles. Best of luck!

December 22, 2010, 03:24 PM	#9
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have tried the epoxy alone. The scope pops off with the first shot. I have drilled and tapped ~100 rifles. You may be able to do it yourself.

December 22, 2010, 07:06 PM	#10
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	No, no, not duct tape! Hose clamps. But seriously, as has been said, glues and epoxys are pretty good in tension, but not so good in shear. For something as hefty as a scope and mount, mechanical attachment is best. Does anyone make a receiver side mount to hold a scope for this gun? Preferably one that uses existing pins or screws? Just a thought.

December 22, 2010, 08:26 PM	#11
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	Gorilla Glue is no where near as strong as a good epoxy. If you absolutely must try it, buy a high grade epoxy from Brownell's.

December 23, 2010, 11:22 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	A late friend of mine serviced helicopters in Vietnam (in Thailand, actually, but for the war). He told me the skin of helicopter rotary wings is held onto the frame with a Boeing adhesive. There are some tough glues out there, but they are mostly industrial products with a specific bonding requirement. For example, we all know what super glue is. Get an industrial super glue catalog and you'll find you've got twenty or thirty to choose from. One's best for rubber on glass, another does aluminum to PVC, etc. You'd want aluminum to steel, but I'll bet you'd have to scrape the profiles to a fit before it would work. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 24, 2010, 03:02 AM	#15
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	The wing skins on later B-52's are epoxied on as well. My guess- a bolt action probably flexes too much. Drill and tap.

December 24, 2010, 08:57 AM	#17
Elkins45 Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2010 Posts: 498	Once upon a time I used epoxy to help me locate the bases on a 98 Mauser for home drilling. I mounted a factory new (and therefore centered) scope and clamped the bases to it at the correct spacing. I then clamped the rifle in a vise and 'bore sighted' the scope and bases so they were correctly aligned and then epoxied the bases in that position. After it hardened I removed the scope and just drilled through the holes in the scope bases. It seemed to work OK.

December 24, 2010, 04:52 PM	#19
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 1,512	JB weld

December 24, 2010, 06:48 PM	#20
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	I was waiting for that! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

December 25, 2010, 01:10 PM	#21
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Brazing might of worked but looks bad.:barf: J B Weld would work if you got them cleaned up good,,,,,,you're not serious really?, Totally DO NOT GLUE ANYTHING TO THAT RIFLE!!!! (unless its a picture of your girlfriend) __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

December 29, 2010, 03:29 PM	#22
700cdl Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2010 Posts: 216	Bases My Dad glued everything with JB Weld and epoxy, but for this purpose it would fall off and likely ruin an optic.

January 5, 2011, 02:58 PM	#23
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	IF you use any type of adhesive put a short length of nylon cord around both the scope and the rifle. A short leash will keep the scope from hitting the ground too hard.

January 12, 2011, 08:31 PM	#24
Recoiljunky Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2011 Location: Jupiter, florida Posts: 233	Why not just bust out the tig wielder it would work alot better

January 13, 2011, 05:36 AM	#25
Win_94 Junior member Join Date: August 21, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 214	B-Square Scope Base & Rings for US 1917 Enfield I think this is the one I was going to buy for mine a few years ago. There was no drilling or tapping involved. I don't think it would be all that stable; it seemed to be held by the single screw holding the ladder sight on. Last edited by Win_94; January 13, 2011 at 05:40 AM. Reason: additional info