What's the next step? Turret vs Progressive

[mardanlin]

I'm feeling comfortable with my single stage and I'd like to increase my output for certain calibers like .223 and various pistol cartridges. I've read about turrets and progressive presses but to be 100%, I'm not sure I fully understand the difference between the two.

I load for several different calibers. Would changing calibers be a big job or is it as simple as unscrewing and screwing dies back in like on a single stage? For my bigger calibers like 30-06 or 300 WBY I don't mind using a single stage, so if it is a big hassle I could still do those on the single stage.

Also, how do you speed the process up very much considering you still have to weigh your powder charge? I've read that automatic powder measuring devices are not very accurate, is this true or is the margin of error small enough to where a recreational shooter wouldn't be able to tell the difference?

As I said I'm just looking to make more rounds with the amount of time I have invested because it seems like it takes me an hour to get 30rds for the AR and they're gone in 2 minutes.

[motmot]

I use the Lee Classic turret and have been completely happy with it. Just yesterday I cranked out 200 rounds while watching the Olympics on tv for a little over an hour. If you're just looking for a few hundred rounds at a time then turret is fine. Changing calibers is the easiest part since you set up individual turrets with each caliber you load so just pop off one turret and pop on the next and you're ready to go. I've loaded 4 different cals during one session. The only real work in changing turrets is re-calibrating the Auto Disk powder feed, which I highly recommend. The Auto Disk powder feed is pretty good with most powders, some meter better than others. You just have to run a few test loads and weigh them to get the right setting. Once you figure out the proper setting, write it down and you'll never have to do that work again. I usually spot check every 20-25 rounds just to make sure it's metering properly but have never really encountered enough deviation to worry me. I found that the load sheet that comes with the Auto Disk gets you in the ballpark but I am usually adjusting up or down one setting to get what I need. May just be the humidity difference in my area as opposed to where they developed the powder data. Bottom line is that for what it sounds like you're doing the turret is an easy cost effective way to go. IMO

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I'm not sure I fully understand the difference between the two.

Turret produces one die function per arm pull the same as a single stage is capable of. Difference being that all dies can be installed into the press and with auto-indexing move from die to die with each pull until a round is produced. No die changes necessary per caliber. Faster than a single stage, but not by leaps and bounds. Charging the casing is much easier and automatic with auto powder measure/dispenser.

Progressive press, All dies are put use every time the handle is pulled which results in several steps/stages in one pull and can produce one round per pull. Much faster.

Also, how do you speed the process up very much considering you still have to weigh your powder charge? I've read that automatic powder measuring devices are not very accurate, is this true or is the margin of error small enough to where a recreational shooter wouldn't be able to tell the difference?

Most are pretty accurate. The problem on some is when the use of a small charge is needed with tighter tolerances. Mainly in rounds like .380. Powder choice also affects it. Some fast powders with low charge weights and tighter tolerances between start and max loads only add to the difficulty. I believe the biggest complaints are on the Lee Pro Auto-Disk. YMMV.

[1stmar]

I use a progressive press for pistol where I don't do all the case prep work (primer pocket cleaning, trimming, chamfer etc). Not to say you can't do it on a progressive, it just negates some of the speed. High volume, where accuracy is less important. Turret press is a good middle ground, but why not leverage the single stage for low volume high accuracy loads and a progressive for high volume.

[jmorris]

I load .223 3 gun match ammunition on progressives. One pass sizes and trims and the next one swages and loads.

How much faster a progressive is, depends on how many dies you would use on a SS or turret.

With a 3 die set on a single stage or turret you would pull the handle 3 times and throw the powder charge for each case.

Once the shell plate is full on a progressive one loaded round is completed every stroke.

This is a video of loading on a decked out progressive.



With each pull of the handle this is what happens.

1. Case is inserted into the shell plate.
2. Size/deprime (not really needed as they have already been processed and trimmed)
3. Swage.
4. Primer seat.
5. Charge with powder.
6. Add bullet to case.
7. Seat bullet.
8. Crimp.

[GJSchulze]

Saying that auto powder measures are inaccurate just isn't true. It does depend on the powder, though. I use Power Pistol and I'm within .05 gr out of a 4.2 load every time. Stick powders may not be as accurate. Ball powders measure well.

If you are going to measure every charge of a pistol round you'll be negating any speed advantage of a progressive. If you intend to shoot any kind of volume (400 or more per month) you'll want a progressive. Hornady, with its die bushings, makes it easy to change between caliber.

[mardanlin]

What is the fastest method of trimming? That is a big part of how long it takes me to load now so I'm curious how you speed this process up. The video was great I really want one now!

[GJSchulze]

You don't need to trim pistol cases nor do you need to clean the primer pockets. Some people still do that, but none of them can give you any other reason other than "I like to."

I see the press in the photo is blue. Be aware that not all Dillon models are auto-indexing, i.e., you have to rotate the shell plate yourself. I don't and wouldn't.

[motmot]

Just curious, what was the cost of that rig, dies and all?

[flyguy958]

I'm not new to loading, but am new to the progressive world. Midway had the RCBS Pro2000 auto indexing for $500.00, there is a rebate of $50.00. Shell plate holders are $35.00. So if you have the dies you can get started in two calibers for $520.00.

Hand gun calibers are easy and fast. Rifle require size and de-prime (swag primer pocket) trim stage first. Then put them through the progressive.

I would recommend a powder check die. The learning curve in a progressive is steep and it is easy to get distracted on one stage and forget that other stages are happening.

The progressive made reloading fun again. Now I just have to find more bullets!

[jmorris]

What is the fastest method of trimming? That is a big part of how long it takes me to load now so I'm curious how you speed this process up. The video was great I really want one now!

The Dillon trimmer on a progressive is the fastest method. This photo is of one of them mounted on a tool head (without vacuum manifold to suck up the trimmings).



It is as fast as the loading cycle but is loud 1800 processed cases/hour (sized/deprimed and trimmed) is my average.

They are clean and free of burs but if you plan to run cast bullets you would want to chamfer the ID of the mouth.

[motmot]

Yikes! For my turret press with all dies and turrets for 5 calibers I think that I'm in for around $400. Progressive looks cool but I can't find enough supplies as it is so I'm not in that much of a hurry. Sometimes I work slow just to make the fun last longer.

[Lost Sheep]

Single stage presses pretty much only do batch processing.

Turrets can do batch or continuous with equal ease

Progressives are designed for continuous processing, but can be used for batch processing)

Operational differences between single stage and turret presses and how it relates to batch processing vs continuous processing.

Short answer:


Batch processing: You can do your batches in 50 as I do or 20 or 100 or 1,000. But the operations are the same. (For pistol) Size/deprime and prime 50 rounds, then switch dies and bell/flare and charge 50 rounds. Inspect the charges in a batch and switch dies. Seat and crimp 50 rounds. When one batch is done you box it up and move on to the next batch. With batch processing, you handle the case through multiple insert-remove cycles.

Continuous processing: You put the empty case in the press and do all the operations (size/deprime, bell/charge, seat/crimp) and remove the finished cartridge only after all the steps are done. This saves a lot of handling the cases (at least three insertion-removal cycles) and amounts to a lot of time saved.


As a practical matter a single stage press can only do batch operation. Turret presses can do either batch processing (as a single stage) or continuous processing with equal facility.


Batch operation is slower than continuous operation because with continuous processing you only insert and remove the cartridge case once per cartridge (the case going through all the loading steps without ever exiting the press) All that extra handling and hand movement takes time. Thus a Turret can be 2 to 4 times as fast as a single stage. But more care needs to be taken to yield the same degree of quality control and safety.


Long answer:


A turret is a single stage with multiple die stations. That is the only operational difference. But that difference allows a turret to do either continuous operation or batch with equal ease where a single stage is practical only for batch processing.


Single stages tend to be (but are not necessarily) stronger and stiffer. This is mostly because single stages' frames (with few exceptions) are usually cast in a single piece where turrets are of at least two parts assembled, and they move, which pretty much requires there be some clearance. In practice, the difference is vanishingly small. But we still argue over it.


Like a single stage, a turret press does only one thing (operation, like size/deprime, belling case mouth, seat/crimp) at a time, but switching between those operations/dies is nearly instantaneous. This makes continuous processing practical. (In contrast to progressive presses which do multiple different steps simultaneously.)


Continuous vs batch saves a LOT of time. If the press indexes the dies automatically, it saves a lot of hand motions. If you index the die stations manually, it is a little slower, but still much faster than batch processing because of all the insert-remove cycles and the hand movements associated with those.


If you interrupt the sequence of operations in a batch (like cleaning primer pockets or case trimming) the time savings of continuous/sequential processing is reduced, but still substantial. So many loaders of bottleneck (rifle) cartridges who do those off-press operations or inspections in the middle of the loading process, often choose to break up even the continuous process into smaller groupings of operations, making their loading into a hybrid of batch and continuous. Other loaders of such cartridges use the continuous process, but temporarily interrupt the process to pull each case from the press before continuing. And some just do batch processing because it is simpler, and simple is good. It is a matter of style as much as of operational design.


I said earlier that continuous/sequential processing saves a lot of time (up to 75% by some reckoning). But this comes at a cost. One must be more assiduous about quality control.


For example, primer seating. With batch processing, I run 50 cases through my press and each case winds up in a 50-hole loading block, primer ends up. At that time, I can look at the whole bunch of primers and see that they are all seated right-side in and all seated below flush. With continuous processing, I do the same inspection as I remove each (finished) case from the press. But it is a little later than the ideal time to detect a defect. Another example, perhaps more pointed: After charging all cases with powder, I can look in all 50 cases lined up in their little holes in the block and see that they are all filled to the same depth. You really cannot do that side-by-side-by-side comparison with continuous processing.


Whatever method(s) you choose, if the production algorithm is well designed for the cartridge and your temperament it will work and is, by design, perfect for you and your production needs. So, you could use the press one way for pistol and another way for rifle. You don't have to do pure batch or continuous processing either. You can devise your own hybrid method, a combination of the two or something else altogether.


I cannot emphasis strongly enough that you MUST design your loading process carefully. Think of your loading bench the way a production designer thinks of his factory floor, because that's what it is. With a factory's QC (Quality Control), safety procedures, producton rate, whole set of design parameters. Treat your loading bench like you were Henry Ford, designing his first assembly line, or a softdrink bottling company or Beam, Inc (a distillery is the epitomy of batch processing, isn't it?). You can get the optimum of all your goals, safety, accuracy, efficiency.


I suggest you view the many (almost too many) videos on the internet showing the operation of various presses.


Lost Sheep

[jmorris]

Yikes! For my turret press with all dies and turrets for 5 calibers I think that I'm in for around $400.

Yes, setups like that are not for everyone but looking at ot another way, a bulk box of 6000 55g bullets alone from Hornady costs more than $400.

The box looks a whole lot bigger sitting in front of a turret than it does next to a progressive.

On the flip side it would be silly to have a decked out progressive and only load 100 or less rounds then switch to another caliber. This is why I own more than a few presses, none of them are "just right" for everything.

[David Bachelder]

I went single, turret then progressive. I probably should have skipped the turret.

[Rifleman1776]

Differences have been explained. I use a Lyman turret. But, in reality it is a single stage press with a holder for extra dies. I won't use a progressive because I am obsessive about inspecting my brass and my work as I reload. I believe batch loading is nearly as fast as using a progressive press. And, I am convinced single stage batch loading is safer and produces a better final product.

[WESHOOT2]

Read the OPs query; got answer: Dillon XL650

Get the roller handle......

[Rico567]

In one way, I can understand the recommendation of a Dillon 650 (I load all pistol + .223 on a 650), but the OP is not really specific about the projected volumes to be reloaded. My 650 is paid for, but at the volume I shoot 7 years after buying it, it's overkill. It's a good machine, but switching calibers is not trivial, so IMHO it only makes sense if used in runs not less than a thousand rounds before caliber changeover.

.....and, yeah, don't buy it without the roller handle.

[TylerOutdoorsman]

I have 2 Lee Progressive Pro loaders that I use for 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. They work well but can be finicky. However, they only run about $169.00 with everything you need for a specific caliber including dies. I recently purchased a Lee Deluxe Turret press to speed up my loading of .223 Remington. I process my brass beforehand; i.e. decapping, tumbling, sizing, trimming, and through all of the stages on the Lyman Case Prep Xpress, and then I can get about 150 rounds per hour if I'm in a hurry. I am very pleased with the Lee Deluxe Turret Press and consider it, as most Lee products, an excellent value. I would love to have a Dillon, but have yet to be able to justify the price as I get satisfactory results from my Lee products...my .02.

[GWS]

Looking at it another way:

Basic loading of .45 ACP, not counting cleaning or lubing:

1. Size & Deprime with a sizer die.
2. Expand & Charge (if you use a powder through expander)
3. Seat a bullet
4. Taper crimp

With a single station press or a turret one finished round = 4 handle strokes.
100 rounds = 400 handle strokes. (500 if you expand separately)

Take the most basic progressive like the Dillon 550 with 4 stations:

First 4 strokes to populate the shellplate and drop the first finished round. 99 more strokes to finish the 100 round batch. Or 100 rounds =103 strokes.

The difference on an old body like mine is pretty clear: You choose....4 or 500 strokes per 100 rounds....... or 103.

I justified the price of my Pro 2000 easily....my body can't take doing it the way I have for 44 years anymore. Simple.

I get to load 3 calibers a nite with my simple press. You're not going to like attempting that on a Dillon 650.......if you buy three of them, yes.

On the flip side it would be silly to have a decked out progressive and only load 100 or less rounds then switch to another caliber. This is why I own more than a few presses, none of them are "just right" for everything.

jmorris's quote above is a case in point. It's only silly if the press you have takes 30 minutes to change calibers. Mine takes 5 minutes including a primer size change. And yes no press is "just right" for everything, but for what I do the Pro 2000 does great. That's why it's so important to do your homework and find the progressive that fits you and what you load best.

When I watched a Dillon 650 user change calibers once, I knew that wasn't going to fit me at all......I can't afford a press for every caliber, nor expensive caliber kits to make Dillon's caliber change more palatable.

[Nick_C_S]

You don't need to clean the primer pockets. Some people still do that, but none of them can give you any other reason other than "I like to."

I like to.

I've been strongly thinking about going progressive myself. (I don't see the point in a turret press, btw - maybe it's a rifle thing. I only load pistol.) But I'm so set in my ways with brass prep, and hand priming, and my powder drop-n-check method, etc. I'm just really hesitant to take that leap.

[Reloader2]

I've loaded for years on a single stage. I recently purchased a Lee Classic Turret press. I'm still getting the hang of it but have enjoyed using it for pistol ammo. Simple enough for an idiot like me but produces a whole lot faster than single stage. Lots of cranks of the handle though.