full auto 10/22

vaeevictiss · April 29, 2011, 10:22 PM

Now before people come at me with all legal stuff like everyone is a lawyer (not insulting anyone, iv'e seen it with my own eyes on this forum and others), i just want to say i understand, i'm not an idiot. I am currently going through the waiting process of my first class III weapon; a Stag Arms AR-15 with 11.5" lefty upper and Yankee Hill suppressor.

I know most of the rules.

One i am fuzzy about is the whole full auto thing. I have heard that you can do it to an AK-47 with a pre-ban receiver (which i actually happen to have as well) with the usual $200 tax stamp and the parts.

But when looking into the 10/22 it seems different. I have a 10/22 manufactured in 1982, but from what i have read, this it doesn't matter. The only way it can be done legally is with one of john norells $10,000 trigger packs, and the pack can be dropped in ANY receiver.

Is this the only way? and does the fact i have a "pre-ban" 10/22 not even matter? $10k seems a bit ridiculous considering you can buy a real center fire full auto for a few grand more.

So please refrain from the clever prison jokes and analogies everyone comes up with. I didn't come here to be harassed, just to get the facts.

**JohnKSa** · April 29, 2011, 10:43 PM

As an unlicensed person there is no legal way to manufacture full-auto firearms or convert existing non-full-auto firearms to full-auto operation regardless of the date of manufacture of the firearms you wish to convert.

The licensing and other legalities involved to legally manufacture full-auto firearms or convert firearms to full-auto operation are designed for people who are in the business of manufacturing and/or selling firearms and it is very difficult or impossible and probably illegal for those who are not in the business of manufacturing and/or selling firearms to complete the process.

vaeevictiss · April 29, 2011, 11:07 PM

just what i was looking for. Thanks for the info.

So then all that is required to purchase a legit pre 86 FA is a $200 tax stamp?
(and the $12,000+ price tag haha).

**JohnKSa** · April 29, 2011, 11:31 PM

...and the approval process and CLEO sign off, etc.

Here's a decent treatise on the process.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...80&postcount=2

vaeevictiss · April 29, 2011, 11:51 PM

well you can also do a living trust and bypass the whole CLEO part too.

Willie Lowman · April 30, 2011, 12:05 AM

Quote:

$10k seems a bit ridiculous considering you can buy a real center fire full auto for a few grand more.

Yeah, a machinegun that you can burn 1000 rounds through in a day for $30 vs. a machinegun that you can burn 1000 round through in a day for $300.

It's ridiculous that the FA .22 isn't more popular.

Skans · April 30, 2011, 11:38 AM

When discussing this topic you really have to be specific about the particular full auto gun or part you are interested in. The laws and rules were not written using "common sense" and consistency - you've got to purge those foolish ideas from your head when it comes to NFA.

For example, it is legal to convert an FNC semi-auto rifle to full-auto by installing a registered sear. Some other parts need to be modified as well, but the sear is the machinegun - the semi-auto FNC is just the host.

Example: You cannot convert a semi-auto AR15 by drilling the applicable holes and installing a factory auto sear. You can use a semi-auto AR15 as a host for a registered Drop In Auto Sear.

I believe that the trigger packs for the 10-22 that you mention is the registered part, so (assuming that it is) it can be fitted to any semi-auto 10-22.

Look at UZIs - some of them have registered receivers; others have registered bolts. I believe that those SA receivers that use registered slotted bolts have been modified to some degree for the bolt to function properly. But, you cannot use unregistered slotted bolts in a registered receiver (that would be 2 machineguns, one registered and the other not registered - illegal)

I am not aware of any registered full-auto device that can be installed in any "pre-ban" AK-47. FYI, there is no legal or practical difference between semi-auto pre-ban AK-47's and semi-auto AK-47's being produced today using US receivers.

MrM4 · April 30, 2011, 11:46 AM

"Yeah, a machinegun that you can burn 1000 rounds through in a day for $30 vs. a machinegun that you can burn 1000 round through in a day for $300.

It's ridiculous that the FA .22 isn't more popular. "

Thats why you buy a MG that has .22 kits availible such as an M16 or M11 for example.

ofitg · May 1, 2011, 02:04 AM

vaeevictiss, don't forget about the .22 conversion kits for full-auto M16/AR-15s....

You're already processing the ATF Form 4 for an AR-15 shorty.... in theory, if you can find a registered drop-in auto sear, your shorty could fire full auto and you can always drop in the .22 conversion bolt for cheap fun....

egor20 · May 1, 2011, 06:05 PM

You might like this

AK-22 .22LR MACHINE GUN, Transferable
http://www.impactguns.com/ak-22-22lr...ble-ak-22.aspx

vaeevictiss · May 2, 2011, 06:24 PM

@ofitg

so even tho the ar15 is brand new, i can get a DIAS legally with just a form 4? didnt know that. Would it be select fire? and how is the reliability?

COSteve · May 2, 2011, 10:49 PM

If it didn't exist and if it wasn't registered as a MG before the 1986 cutoff, there is no possible way anything can be made legal to us mere mortals even with a $200 tax stamp. The law was specifically written to make it impossible.

MrM4 · May 2, 2011, 11:03 PM

vaeevictiss

A RDIAS ( registered Drop in Auto Sear ) will allow the gun to function as any normal M16 would. Rather then having the extra hole drilled into the lower to allow the use of auto trip such as anormal M16 or a Registered Receiver full auto AR15 will have, the RDIAS is a drop in unit that preforms the same task.

They function well and allow select fire.

refferance info:
http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

Skans · May 3, 2011, 09:51 AM

A registered DIAS I think sells for about $10,000 +/-. Note, they do not function exactly the same way as an M16 auto sear. The auto-sear does not operate during semi-auto fire. The DIAS does affect semi-auto fire. Also, the DIAS needs to be fitted and timed to work properly. None of this is a real big deal, but there are differences.

When you pay for a Registered DIAS, you are not paying for a small .5"x.5" chunk of metal....you are actually buying a license to own and operate any one of the modern M16 type rifles in many different calibers.

vaeevictiss · May 4, 2011, 10:51 AM

while we are on topic, this brings up another interesting question.

The 10/22 "Gatling" gun kit from tactical innovations.
http://www.tacticalinc.com/gatling-gun-kit-p-571.html

It is driven by a hand crank that turns a cam which actuates the triggers. Because it is driven by a cam, even tho the turning of a crank is one smooth motion, it is still considered semi auto because of the 1 trigger pull=1 shot mantra.

Now, what is to say you cannot simply remove the hand crank, and attach some random electric motor to the camshaft; like a drill motor for example, and electronically spin the cam?

Im sure BATFE would be quick to strike it down, but that is almost like the bump fire argument how its a thin gray line where if they said bump firing
was illegal, it would almost mean having a semi auto weapon is illegal.

Having an electric motor spin the cam is basically full auto...but it is still 1 shot per trigger pull...but then again this is the department that says it is a felony to own and AR-15 and a pair of shoes at the same time.

(i know they mention right in that link that atf doesnt allow it, but show no proof and it could just be them covering their ass)

anyone have ideas on that?

chadstrickland · May 4, 2011, 01:22 PM

Big no no buddy...hand cranking it is not illegal just like bump firing is not..but when you add a drill to the scenario it changes the whole ball game..then you have a fully automatic rifle...by pulling the drill trigger once and it firing multiple times...just like the bump fire stocks that had the spring in the back and didn't require you to do anything except apply pressure they are illegal but the stocks without the spring are perfectly fine...

ofitg · May 4, 2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

so even tho the ar15 is brand new, i can get a DIAS legally with just a form 4? didnt know that. Would it be select fire? and how is the reliability?

vaeevictiss, I did the ATF Form 4 and bought a RDIAS back in 1986..... the dealer popped open my Colt SP-1, swapped out a couple of civilian parts with military versions, and then inserted the RDIAS down into the recess at the bottom of the lower receiver.
I've never had any problem with it - I've fired a few hundred rounds of .223 and a few thousand rounds of .22 LR with a Ceiner conversion kit. I never noticed that it affected semi-auto fire, and it didn't require any special fitting/tuning, but maybe I was just lucky (?)

As far as reliability goes, I have no complaints with .223, but the .22 LR conversion jams occasionally.

As Skans pointed out, the RDIAS is the "machinegun" listed on the ATF Form 4, so you're free to install it on a different AR platform/caliber any time you choose.
Also, as Skans mentioned, the price is up in the neighborhood of $10k nowadays (if you can find one for sale).

vaeevictiss · May 4, 2011, 09:42 PM

There's definately a catch to everything haha. Seems unless the ban is lifted (yea right) they will just get harder to find and more expensive. Its a shame, I was born in 83 and I'm willing to bet back then a full auto was pretty reasonably priced.

Definately not in my budget right now so the shorty suppressed ar will have to keep me happy for a while haha. Thanks for all the info though.

ofitg · May 5, 2011, 12:51 AM

I got the RDIAS, the military parts set (hammer, trigger, etc), and the tax stamp, all for under $1000 in 1986. Nowadays, I think the RDIAS is more valuable than the car I'm driving. The prices are insane.

I always wanted to own a Thompson SMG, but I know it's never gonna happen unless my wife wins the lottery.

GoCarGo · May 6, 2011, 11:31 PM

vaeevictiss

A registered Lightning Link for your AR sometimes sell for half the price ($5-6000) of a registered drop in auto sear (RDIAS).

The LL requires no drilling and basically fits between your AR's upper and lower receiver.

I paid $400 back when you were 10 years old for my Norrell 10/22 registered hammer pack

April 29, 2011, 10:22 PM	#1
vaeevictiss Member Join Date: April 29, 2011 Posts: 32	full auto 10/22 Now before people come at me with all legal stuff like everyone is a lawyer (not insulting anyone, iv'e seen it with my own eyes on this forum and others), i just want to say i understand, i'm not an idiot. I am currently going through the waiting process of my first class III weapon; a Stag Arms AR-15 with 11.5" lefty upper and Yankee Hill suppressor. I know most of the rules. One i am fuzzy about is the whole full auto thing. I have heard that you can do it to an AK-47 with a pre-ban receiver (which i actually happen to have as well) with the usual $200 tax stamp and the parts. But when looking into the 10/22 it seems different. I have a 10/22 manufactured in 1982, but from what i have read, this it doesn't matter. The only way it can be done legally is with one of john norells $10,000 trigger packs, and the pack can be dropped in ANY receiver. Is this the only way? and does the fact i have a "pre-ban" 10/22 not even matter? $10k seems a bit ridiculous considering you can buy a real center fire full auto for a few grand more. So please refrain from the clever prison jokes and analogies everyone comes up with. I didn't come here to be harassed, just to get the facts. Last edited by vaeevictiss; April 29, 2011 at 10:32 PM.

April 29, 2011, 10:43 PM	#2
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,972	As an unlicensed person there is no legal way to manufacture full-auto firearms or convert existing non-full-auto firearms to full-auto operation regardless of the date of manufacture of the firearms you wish to convert. The licensing and other legalities involved to legally manufacture full-auto firearms or convert firearms to full-auto operation are designed for people who are in the business of manufacturing and/or selling firearms and it is very difficult or impossible and probably illegal for those who are not in the business of manufacturing and/or selling firearms to complete the process. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

April 29, 2011, 11:31 PM	#4
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,972	...and the approval process and CLEO sign off, etc. Here's a decent treatise on the process. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...80&postcount=2 __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

April 30, 2011, 11:38 AM	#7
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	When discussing this topic you really have to be specific about the particular full auto gun or part you are interested in. The laws and rules were not written using "common sense" and consistency - you've got to purge those foolish ideas from your head when it comes to NFA. For example, it is legal to convert an FNC semi-auto rifle to full-auto by installing a registered sear. Some other parts need to be modified as well, but the sear is the machinegun - the semi-auto FNC is just the host. Example: You cannot convert a semi-auto AR15 by drilling the applicable holes and installing a factory auto sear. You can use a semi-auto AR15 as a host for a registered Drop In Auto Sear. I believe that the trigger packs for the 10-22 that you mention is the registered part, so (assuming that it is) it can be fitted to any semi-auto 10-22. Look at UZIs - some of them have registered receivers; others have registered bolts. I believe that those SA receivers that use registered slotted bolts have been modified to some degree for the bolt to function properly. But, you cannot use unregistered slotted bolts in a registered receiver (that would be 2 machineguns, one registered and the other not registered - illegal) I am not aware of any registered full-auto device that can be installed in any "pre-ban" AK-47. FYI, there is no legal or practical difference between semi-auto pre-ban AK-47's and semi-auto AK-47's being produced today using US receivers. Last edited by Skans; April 30, 2011 at 11:45 AM.

April 30, 2011, 11:46 AM	#8
MrM4 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2008 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA Posts: 106	"Yeah, a machinegun that you can burn 1000 rounds through in a day for $30 vs. a machinegun that you can burn 1000 round through in a day for $300. It's ridiculous that the FA .22 isn't more popular. " Thats why you buy a MG that has .22 kits availible such as an M16 or M11 for example. __________________ FUN GUN SHOOT South Dakota's Largest Machine Gun Shoot www.fungunshoot.com

April 29, 2011, 11:07 PM	#3
vaeevictiss Member Join Date: April 29, 2011 Posts: 32	just what i was looking for. Thanks for the info. So then all that is required to purchase a legit pre 86 FA is a $200 tax stamp? (and the $12,000+ price tag haha).

April 29, 2011, 11:51 PM	#5
vaeevictiss Member Join Date: April 29, 2011 Posts: 32	well you can also do a living trust and bypass the whole CLEO part too.

May 1, 2011, 02:04 AM	#9
ofitg Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2010 Posts: 102	vaeevictiss, don't forget about the .22 conversion kits for full-auto M16/AR-15s.... You're already processing the ATF Form 4 for an AR-15 shorty.... in theory, if you can find a registered drop-in auto sear, your shorty could fire full auto and you can always drop in the .22 conversion bolt for cheap fun....

May 1, 2011, 06:05 PM	#10
egor20 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2010 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,824	You might like this AK-22 .22LR MACHINE GUN, Transferable http://www.impactguns.com/ak-22-22lr...ble-ak-22.aspx __________________ Chief stall mucker and grain chef Country don't mean dumb. Steven King. The Stand

May 2, 2011, 06:24 PM	#11
vaeevictiss Member Join Date: April 29, 2011 Posts: 32	@ofitg so even tho the ar15 is brand new, i can get a DIAS legally with just a form 4? didnt know that. Would it be select fire? and how is the reliability?

May 2, 2011, 10:49 PM	#12
COSteve Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2009 Posts: 1,344	If it didn't exist and if it wasn't registered as a MG before the 1986 cutoff, there is no possible way anything can be made legal to us mere mortals even with a $200 tax stamp. The law was specifically written to make it impossible.

May 2, 2011, 11:03 PM	#13
MrM4 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2008 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA Posts: 106	vaeevictiss A RDIAS ( registered Drop in Auto Sear ) will allow the gun to function as any normal M16 would. Rather then having the extra hole drilled into the lower to allow the use of auto trip such as anormal M16 or a Registered Receiver full auto AR15 will have, the RDIAS is a drop in unit that preforms the same task. They function well and allow select fire. refferance info: http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html __________________ FUN GUN SHOOT South Dakota's Largest Machine Gun Shoot www.fungunshoot.com Last edited by MrM4; May 2, 2011 at 11:11 PM.

May 3, 2011, 09:51 AM	#14
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	A registered DIAS I think sells for about $10,000 +/-. Note, they do not function exactly the same way as an M16 auto sear. The auto-sear does not operate during semi-auto fire. The DIAS does affect semi-auto fire. Also, the DIAS needs to be fitted and timed to work properly. None of this is a real big deal, but there are differences. When you pay for a Registered DIAS, you are not paying for a small .5"x.5" chunk of metal....you are actually buying a license to own and operate any one of the modern M16 type rifles in many different calibers.

May 4, 2011, 10:51 AM	#15
vaeevictiss Member Join Date: April 29, 2011 Posts: 32	while we are on topic, this brings up another interesting question. The 10/22 "Gatling" gun kit from tactical innovations. http://www.tacticalinc.com/gatling-gun-kit-p-571.html It is driven by a hand crank that turns a cam which actuates the triggers. Because it is driven by a cam, even tho the turning of a crank is one smooth motion, it is still considered semi auto because of the 1 trigger pull=1 shot mantra. Now, what is to say you cannot simply remove the hand crank, and attach some random electric motor to the camshaft; like a drill motor for example, and electronically spin the cam? Im sure BATFE would be quick to strike it down, but that is almost like the bump fire argument how its a thin gray line where if they said bump firing was illegal, it would almost mean having a semi auto weapon is illegal. Having an electric motor spin the cam is basically full auto...but it is still 1 shot per trigger pull...but then again this is the department that says it is a felony to own and AR-15 and a pair of shoes at the same time. (i know they mention right in that link that atf doesnt allow it, but show no proof and it could just be them covering their ass) anyone have ideas on that?

May 4, 2011, 01:22 PM	#16
chadstrickland Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2011 Location: alabama Posts: 537	Big no no buddy...hand cranking it is not illegal just like bump firing is not..but when you add a drill to the scenario it changes the whole ball game..then you have a fully automatic rifle...by pulling the drill trigger once and it firing multiple times...just like the bump fire stocks that had the spring in the back and didn't require you to do anything except apply pressure they are illegal but the stocks without the spring are perfectly fine... __________________ Two weapons that was designed by the same man still in use by the us military 100 years later...1911 and m2...is there anything that comes close.....lol annd maybe perhaps a sig sauer p226 tac ops edition..

May 4, 2011, 09:42 PM	#18
vaeevictiss Member Join Date: April 29, 2011 Posts: 32	There's definately a catch to everything haha. Seems unless the ban is lifted (yea right) they will just get harder to find and more expensive. Its a shame, I was born in 83 and I'm willing to bet back then a full auto was pretty reasonably priced. Definately not in my budget right now so the shorty suppressed ar will have to keep me happy for a while haha. Thanks for all the info though.

May 5, 2011, 12:51 AM	#19
ofitg Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2010 Posts: 102	I got the RDIAS, the military parts set (hammer, trigger, etc), and the tax stamp, all for under $1000 in 1986. Nowadays, I think the RDIAS is more valuable than the car I'm driving. The prices are insane. I always wanted to own a Thompson SMG, but I know it's never gonna happen unless my wife wins the lottery. Last edited by ofitg; May 5, 2011 at 09:37 AM.

May 6, 2011, 11:31 PM	#20
GoCarGo Junior Member Join Date: March 19, 2010 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 8	vaeevictiss A registered Lightning Link for your AR sometimes sell for half the price ($5-6000) of a registered drop in auto sear (RDIAS). The LL requires no drilling and basically fits between your AR's upper and lower receiver. I paid $400 back when you were 10 years old for my Norrell 10/22 registered hammer pack