.30 carbine chambering problem not resolved - Page 2

zeke · February 22, 2017, 09:09 AM

They're getting to it. My RCBS carbide .30 carbine die sizes the brass down past original dimensions. The die set came with an expander plug die, which re expands the brass to accept 30 caliber bullet, while creating a "stepped" case mouth instead of just a flare.

Likely you are forcing bullets into an undersized case, in addition to using cases beyond the max case length. The rings of copper might be caused by the ring being shaved off while seating the bullet, or the cases too long/chamber throat interaction.

condor bravo · February 22, 2017, 10:14 AM

HiBC and Zeke
Note that Billglass in post 24 reports the same problem with his 30 pilot not fitting in his sized cases but that he expands the case necks somehow to make a fit. And Zeke needs an expander die to sufficiently expand the case mouths for the pilot. But the 30 pilots work properly in everyone's '06 cases. Strange.

When I receive a new 30 pilot will reduce the diameter to fit. I've had to do that with another pilot and is not a problem.

Loading sequence with the Dillon 550 is as follows. With my questionable two sizing die setup, the steel die is in station 1 for depriming and better sizing the base of the cases. The carbide die in station 2 with decapping stem removed does some additional sizing on the case body. Powder charging and flaring with the powder measure system is done at station 3 and bullet seating and taper crimping done at station 4.

Of course trimming will have to be included following the two die sizing operation before going on to powder charging and flaring.

Bullet seating is done with normal pressure and no shearing of the bullets. But the 30 pilot is the problem with trimming right now.

HiBC · February 22, 2017, 11:29 AM

Compare the dia of the neck expanding feature on your Dillon setup to the expander plug on your 30-06 die.(Your 30-06 die sizes the neck down undersize,then draws the expander plug through to size the ID up a bit)

I understand the expediency of reducing the diameter of a trimmer pilot. That will accomplish letting you trim and chamfer after sizing. All good!!

Now,what I wonder,after you get them trimmed,will the ID of the 30 carbine case get expanded up to the same ID as 30-06 sized brass by the feature on your powder charger that also flares.
Or,to ask another way,once a 30 carbine case is charged with powder,is the ID of the case neck pretty close to the ID of a resized 30-06 brass?If you have good calipers you should be able to make a comparative measurement.I'd hope they were within .001 or so.

condor bravo · February 22, 2017, 11:52 AM

Yes, made a few measurements that explains what is going on but not why. Outside neck diameter of a sized LC carbine case is .327 and inside diameter is .297. With sized Fed '06 cases, outside diameter is .331 and inside diameter is .304. Case wall thickness at the neck is .013 for both. Measurements should be valid since 30 match Sierras always come out exact at .308. The '06 rounds are loaded on a single stage press with a Herters sizing die rather than with the Dillon.

condor bravo · February 22, 2017, 09:33 PM

Another case sizing glitch:
While waiting for the new 30 pilot to arrive, I was successful in creating a 30 carbine pilot from a Lyman outside case neck turning mandrel that wasn't serving any purpose. Reducing the diameter to about .299 resulted in an excellent fit to most of the sized case mouths. So now I'm really set to do some sizing--right? Well not quite right. Inserting a case over the newly created pilot and pushing the cutter shaft inward as far as it would go, the case head lacked a half inch or more to enter the collet. The trimmer is the original Forster. However it was easy enough to hold the case body by hand to do the sizing. By that method I sized ten to 1.286 or 1.287 and loaded those. Wouldn't want to size 100 that way.

Have emailed Forster to see if they have a longer cutter shaft or some kind of adaptor for the original tool in order to properly size the 30 carbine cases.

condor bravo · February 22, 2017, 10:15 PM

A quick reply from Forster pointed out how adjustments can be made from two places in the tool so now all is well for sizing.

HiBC · February 23, 2017, 03:28 PM

Ok. IMO,progress

Your 30-06 shows a neck id of .304. That's .004 interference for neck tension.
Plenty.Would work in a Garand or a 300 RUM.

Your little Carbine brass shows .297 ID,or .011 interference for neck tension. Nearly three times as much. Stuffing a bullet into .011 interference certainly might shave a copper ring of some sort.
There are at least two ways to fix this.One might be honing nearly .007 out of the carbide sizing die.Maybe .0065. That should put the ID right about .3035.

Since the Carbine brass is tapered,no sense sizing the rest of the case body down .007 more than necessary. Forster used to offer some die honing services.You might check.

Or,Dillons" charge through the flaring tool" idea is fine,but it seems the expander function has been lost. I'd think Dillon has that figured out better than I can.Talk with them.Maybe they have a larger dia mandrel you can put in your charging station
Anyway,solution,I'm not sure whats best for you,but we may have ID'd the problem.
I wonder if Redding makes some bushing die where neck tension can be controlled with bushings. Probably expensive!

condor bravo · February 23, 2017, 04:30 PM

I suppose the slight flare prevents any shaving of the bullet during seating. Without the flare there no doubt would be shaving with .011 tension. The .297 ID is the measurement from sized Armscor cases. I just checked the ID of sized Winchester cases that turned out to be .031 or .032, still plenty of tension at around .006 or .007. The Herter's '06 sizing die probably seems odd but I use it mostly since it has a smaller diameter expander plug than a Bonanza and an RCBS, thereby providing more tension than the other two without reducing the diameter of their expander plugs. The .004 tension seems sufficient for the Garand. This is verified by an occasion or two during chambering a round that misfeeds and strikes the breech face without pushing the bullet inward. So right now I'm playing around with case sizing the carbine cases to 1.286 or 1.287. Most brands of fired and sized brass are up around 1.294 or more.

condor bravo · March 1, 2017, 05:49 PM

Finally, a break through with a couple different bullets.

One is FMJ pull downs from military rounds that are .207 in diameter. Firing 10, there was no trace of copper whatever left in the chamber and all fed perfectly. Obviously, I would think, the military FMJ material is harder than the Sierra bullet FMJs. I did trim the cases to around 1.286 which may have helped things along. I'll certainly be doing some more business with patsreloading.com.

Ten rounds were then fired using the second bullet, a cast sized to .209. These are Hunters Supply brand and obtained through Midway. These 10 rounds all chambered and fired perfectly and the cases had also trimmed.

Next a few rounds were tried that were loaded with the Sierra FMJ bullets, and again the copper rings developed after firing two or three and the chamber then needing removal of the copper rings.

The above of course was with the Inland carbine and unfortunately the older carbine is showing the same signs of hanging up with the Sierra FMJ bullets. I have over 500 of the Sierra FMJs sitting in limbo. What now to do with them? Also have a few of my own pull-downs to attend to.

zeke · March 1, 2017, 06:58 PM

If you know anyone with a bore camera, might want to check out the chamber throating. Bought a cheaper Lyman Borecam, and found a couple of surprises.

Am guessing you meant .307 dia? Not all bullets have the full dia at the same length. yet another possible factor.

condor bravo · March 1, 2017, 08:05 PM

Yes, pull down bullets should read .307 and cast lead bullets .309. Ten shot group with the .307s was about the best yet. Cast bullets also very good. But not really into accuracy up to this point since main consideration has been trying to get the thing to digest the reloads properly. Didn't want to be restricted to factory rounds only.

SHR970 · March 1, 2017, 09:56 PM

Quote:

I have over 500 of the Sierra FMJs sitting in limbo. What now to do with them?

Either use them or sell them and recover your money. I know my Inland would have no problem digesting them.

condor bravo · March 1, 2017, 10:34 PM

Shr970
Is your Inland one of the new ones and what ammunition are you using? Any problems with reloads or anything else? Yes I'll probably take the five unopened boxes into my LGS and try to trade for one box of something else or a can of powder or primers. My next order of business is to get an email off to Pat's Reloading for a few hundred of the military pull downs.

I would certainly prefer to use the Sierras with the older carbine but they are also hanging up in that one.

SHR970 · March 1, 2017, 10:49 PM

My inland was from 1944. It isn't very pickey about diet. Old soldiers are used to eating the garbage they are fed.

condor bravo · March 5, 2017, 11:49 PM

30 carbine bullets for sale:

The final conclusion is that the copper rings formed in the chamber by certain bullets are responsible for obstructing the chamber and causing the failures to feed. This is happening with both the older carbine as well as with the new Inland. "Certain bullets" are the 110 gr x-treme plated and the Sierra 110 gr FMJs. The bullets that work are the 110 gr FMJ military pull downs, and the Hunters Supply 115 gr cast.

Note that the x-tremes and the Sierras both worked fine in a previous carbine. But not having that one any longer, I now have about 1200 30 carbine bullets that I can't really use. Would anyone be interested in buying these for half price? There is one unopened box of 500 x-tremes and about 200 additional from a previous box, and five unopened boxes of the Sierras, 100 per box.

The 500 box x-tremes are currently priced at $50, one half would be $25. The Sierras were $20 per box of 100, making half price for the five boxes $50. No charge for the 200 additional x-tremes. Include $10 for shipping for a total of $85. I would probably send by USPS priority mail.

If interested send me a personal message to arrange details. If there are no buyers, the only alternative would be for me to buy another carbine that the bullets will work with.

tangolima · March 6, 2017, 12:05 AM

I will take it. PM will follow. Thanks.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

condor bravo · March 6, 2017, 02:03 AM

PM replied to.
Thanks

February 22, 2017, 10:14 AM	#27
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	HiBC and Zeke Note that Billglass in post 24 reports the same problem with his 30 pilot not fitting in his sized cases but that he expands the case necks somehow to make a fit. And Zeke needs an expander die to sufficiently expand the case mouths for the pilot. But the 30 pilots work properly in everyone's '06 cases. Strange. When I receive a new 30 pilot will reduce the diameter to fit. I've had to do that with another pilot and is not a problem. Loading sequence with the Dillon 550 is as follows. With my questionable two sizing die setup, the steel die is in station 1 for depriming and better sizing the base of the cases. The carbide die in station 2 with decapping stem removed does some additional sizing on the case body. Powder charging and flaring with the powder measure system is done at station 3 and bullet seating and taper crimping done at station 4. Of course trimming will have to be included following the two die sizing operation before going on to powder charging and flaring. Bullet seating is done with normal pressure and no shearing of the bullets. But the 30 pilot is the problem with trimming right now. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; February 22, 2017 at 11:14 AM.

February 22, 2017, 11:52 AM	#29
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Yes, made a few measurements that explains what is going on but not why. Outside neck diameter of a sized LC carbine case is .327 and inside diameter is .297. With sized Fed '06 cases, outside diameter is .331 and inside diameter is .304. Case wall thickness at the neck is .013 for both. Measurements should be valid since 30 match Sierras always come out exact at .308. The '06 rounds are loaded on a single stage press with a Herters sizing die rather than with the Dillon. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; February 22, 2017 at 12:14 PM.

February 22, 2017, 09:33 PM	#30
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Another case sizing glitch: While waiting for the new 30 pilot to arrive, I was successful in creating a 30 carbine pilot from a Lyman outside case neck turning mandrel that wasn't serving any purpose. Reducing the diameter to about .299 resulted in an excellent fit to most of the sized case mouths. So now I'm really set to do some sizing--right? Well not quite right. Inserting a case over the newly created pilot and pushing the cutter shaft inward as far as it would go, the case head lacked a half inch or more to enter the collet. The trimmer is the original Forster. However it was easy enough to hold the case body by hand to do the sizing. By that method I sized ten to 1.286 or 1.287 and loaded those. Wouldn't want to size 100 that way. Have emailed Forster to see if they have a longer cutter shaft or some kind of adaptor for the original tool in order to properly size the 30 carbine cases. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

February 22, 2017, 10:15 PM	#31
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	A quick reply from Forster pointed out how adjustments can be made from two places in the tool so now all is well for sizing. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

February 23, 2017, 04:30 PM	#33
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	I suppose the slight flare prevents any shaving of the bullet during seating. Without the flare there no doubt would be shaving with .011 tension. The .297 ID is the measurement from sized Armscor cases. I just checked the ID of sized Winchester cases that turned out to be .031 or .032, still plenty of tension at around .006 or .007. The Herter's '06 sizing die probably seems odd but I use it mostly since it has a smaller diameter expander plug than a Bonanza and an RCBS, thereby providing more tension than the other two without reducing the diameter of their expander plugs. The .004 tension seems sufficient for the Garand. This is verified by an occasion or two during chambering a round that misfeeds and strikes the breech face without pushing the bullet inward. So right now I'm playing around with case sizing the carbine cases to 1.286 or 1.287. Most brands of fired and sized brass are up around 1.294 or more. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; February 23, 2017 at 09:04 PM.

February 22, 2017, 09:09 AM	#26
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	They're getting to it. My RCBS carbide .30 carbine die sizes the brass down past original dimensions. The die set came with an expander plug die, which re expands the brass to accept 30 caliber bullet, while creating a "stepped" case mouth instead of just a flare. Likely you are forcing bullets into an undersized case, in addition to using cases beyond the max case length. The rings of copper might be caused by the ring being shaved off while seating the bullet, or the cases too long/chamber throat interaction.

February 22, 2017, 11:29 AM	#28
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	Compare the dia of the neck expanding feature on your Dillon setup to the expander plug on your 30-06 die.(Your 30-06 die sizes the neck down undersize,then draws the expander plug through to size the ID up a bit) I understand the expediency of reducing the diameter of a trimmer pilot. That will accomplish letting you trim and chamfer after sizing. All good!! Now,what I wonder,after you get them trimmed,will the ID of the 30 carbine case get expanded up to the same ID as 30-06 sized brass by the feature on your powder charger that also flares. Or,to ask another way,once a 30 carbine case is charged with powder,is the ID of the case neck pretty close to the ID of a resized 30-06 brass?If you have good calipers you should be able to make a comparative measurement.I'd hope they were within .001 or so.

February 23, 2017, 03:28 PM	#32
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	Ok. IMO,progress Your 30-06 shows a neck id of .304. That's .004 interference for neck tension. Plenty.Would work in a Garand or a 300 RUM. Your little Carbine brass shows .297 ID,or .011 interference for neck tension. Nearly three times as much. Stuffing a bullet into .011 interference certainly might shave a copper ring of some sort. There are at least two ways to fix this.One might be honing nearly .007 out of the carbide sizing die.Maybe .0065. That should put the ID right about .3035. Since the Carbine brass is tapered,no sense sizing the rest of the case body down .007 more than necessary. Forster used to offer some die honing services.You might check. Or,Dillons" charge through the flaring tool" idea is fine,but it seems the expander function has been lost. I'd think Dillon has that figured out better than I can.Talk with them.Maybe they have a larger dia mandrel you can put in your charging station Anyway,solution,I'm not sure whats best for you,but we may have ID'd the problem. I wonder if Redding makes some bushing die where neck tension can be controlled with bushings. Probably expensive!

March 1, 2017, 05:49 PM	#34
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Finally, a break through with a couple different bullets. One is FMJ pull downs from military rounds that are .207 in diameter. Firing 10, there was no trace of copper whatever left in the chamber and all fed perfectly. Obviously, I would think, the military FMJ material is harder than the Sierra bullet FMJs. I did trim the cases to around 1.286 which may have helped things along. I'll certainly be doing some more business with patsreloading.com. Ten rounds were then fired using the second bullet, a cast sized to .209. These are Hunters Supply brand and obtained through Midway. These 10 rounds all chambered and fired perfectly and the cases had also trimmed. Next a few rounds were tried that were loaded with the Sierra FMJ bullets, and again the copper rings developed after firing two or three and the chamber then needing removal of the copper rings. The above of course was with the Inland carbine and unfortunately the older carbine is showing the same signs of hanging up with the Sierra FMJ bullets. I have over 500 of the Sierra FMJs sitting in limbo. What now to do with them? Also have a few of my own pull-downs to attend to. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

March 1, 2017, 06:58 PM	#35
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	If you know anyone with a bore camera, might want to check out the chamber throating. Bought a cheaper Lyman Borecam, and found a couple of surprises. Am guessing you meant .307 dia? Not all bullets have the full dia at the same length. yet another possible factor.

March 1, 2017, 08:05 PM	#36
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Yes, pull down bullets should read .307 and cast lead bullets .309. Ten shot group with the .307s was about the best yet. Cast bullets also very good. But not really into accuracy up to this point since main consideration has been trying to get the thing to digest the reloads properly. Didn't want to be restricted to factory rounds only. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

March 1, 2017, 10:34 PM	#38
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Shr970 Is your Inland one of the new ones and what ammunition are you using? Any problems with reloads or anything else? Yes I'll probably take the five unopened boxes into my LGS and try to trade for one box of something else or a can of powder or primers. My next order of business is to get an email off to Pat's Reloading for a few hundred of the military pull downs. I would certainly prefer to use the Sierras with the older carbine but they are also hanging up in that one. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

March 1, 2017, 10:49 PM	#39
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	My inland was from 1944. It isn't very pickey about diet. Old soldiers are used to eating the garbage they are fed.

March 5, 2017, 11:49 PM	#40
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	30 carbine bullets for sale: The final conclusion is that the copper rings formed in the chamber by certain bullets are responsible for obstructing the chamber and causing the failures to feed. This is happening with both the older carbine as well as with the new Inland. "Certain bullets" are the 110 gr x-treme plated and the Sierra 110 gr FMJs. The bullets that work are the 110 gr FMJ military pull downs, and the Hunters Supply 115 gr cast. Note that the x-tremes and the Sierras both worked fine in a previous carbine. But not having that one any longer, I now have about 1200 30 carbine bullets that I can't really use. Would anyone be interested in buying these for half price? There is one unopened box of 500 x-tremes and about 200 additional from a previous box, and five unopened boxes of the Sierras, 100 per box. The 500 box x-tremes are currently priced at $50, one half would be $25. The Sierras were $20 per box of 100, making half price for the five boxes $50. No charge for the 200 additional x-tremes. Include $10 for shipping for a total of $85. I would probably send by USPS priority mail. If interested send me a personal message to arrange details. If there are no buyers, the only alternative would be for me to buy another carbine that the bullets will work with. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

March 6, 2017, 12:05 AM	#41
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,827	I will take it. PM will follow. Thanks. -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

March 6, 2017, 02:03 AM	#42
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	PM replied to. Thanks __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??