More on Cougars ???

[Pahoo]

Background;
Lately we have seen documented evidence of Cougar sightings in eastern, Iowa. Turns out that there have been other undocumented sightings for at least two years. Have contacted some Wisconsin cousins and they have had sighting for a number of years. I suppose the same would be true for Minnesota.

Question;
Have spoken to two different groups that actively hunt Coyotes as our poulation has really risen. The question came up as to whether or not, we would shoot the Cougars? We all came to the conclusion that they were not a problem at this time and there really is no good reason to do so. One fella even suggested that they might even hold down the Coyote population. We understand that the time might come up when they would have to be thinned out. What say you folks that have more experience with Cougars?

Be Safe !!!

[Rifleman1776]

Many states, Arkansas is one, refuse to officially acknowledge the presence of mountain lions. If they do then there are federal (what else?) requirements to "manage" the population. There are mountain lions in Arkansas but not officially recognized. I don't know what would happen if someone killed one.
BTW, most are pets turned loose when they become difficult to handle or are released by drug dealers who used them for property protection in rural areas. No matter, they are here and the population is growing.

[tahunua001]

the bad thing is once they start to adapt to the environment. I've heard stories of a cougar that went all the way from the pac northwest all the way to Pennsylvania. if they do decide to settle on a new home in iowa then they need to be gotten rid of before they start to adapt. any animal, as long as it is capable of surviving in a new environment will start to undergo physiological changes to help it become better suited to it's new environment over a few generations. once they are classified as a new subspecies then they will become a protected species and then you'll be stuck with them and wont have any other choice but to let them kill livestock, ruin the local ecosystem, and wander into town and fall asleep in someones backyard where fish and game will tranq it and relocate it just so it can wander back to it's original location. I'm fairly biased against big cats though... any animal that kills just because it's bored has it's own place on the top of my S**T list

[FrankenMauser]

Cougars are not an issue. They kill only what they have to, to survive. That means they may eat off the same carcass for as much as 5 days. On top of that, Cougars generally augment their diet with small game, fur bearers, and birds. Big Game does make up a substantial portion of their diet, but Cougars target adult animals, primarily the sick and injured.

If your concern is the future of Big Game species...
Kill the coyotes.
Talk your state wildlife division into starting a game fence and game crossing program for highways.


I've read many predation studies over the years. The most recent one I know of, that is applicable here, is one released by Utah, in the last year. (This article is limited to the effects on Mule Deer, but the findings are pretty much universal for most of the country and most species of deer -- with even lower predation rates for Elk and Antelope.)
"The Effects of Predators..."

As for vehicle collisions... I can't find my reference article right now, so I'll fall back to Utah, again. The state of Utah estimates that more deer are killed by vehicles every year, than by hunters, or even coyotes (hunters account for about 20,000 to 33,000 kills each year)! And that's just the beginning. A new study suggests that the state is only aware of as little as 12% of collisions resulting in big game deaths (due to animals that make it off the road, before dying). The current estimates are so mind-blowing, that the state is investing nearly $1 million in a research project to gather more data on deer-vehicle collision deaths, and the total population loss attributed to it.


Leave the Cougars alone.
Kill the coyotes.
Keep vehicles and big game away from each other.

I'm fairly biased against big cats though... any animal that kills just because it's bored has it's own place on the top of my S**T list

Big cats and feral cats kill to eat. Domestic cats and coyotes kill because they're bored.

If you don't want to live in an area with big cats, move to Madagascar. You're in their natural territory. Don't complain, when you see them around. (Just because humans pushed them out in the past, doesn't mean they don't belong there.)

[JACK308]

Cougars and wolfs should be hunted in EVERY STATE untill there no more! Then the deer,elk will all be safe.

[Daryl]

Cougars and wolfs should be hunted in EVERY STATE untill there no more! Then the deer,elk will all be safe.

No, they shouldn't. It's my belief, based upon my own observations, that mtn lions and wolves kill far less deer and elk than poachers do.

Deer, elk, antelope and such are prey to every predator capable of killing them. That includes mtn lions, bears, coyotes, wolves...and man.

Of them all, man's role can be the least meaningful to the health of a herd. Man kills the largest, most impressive specimens in general, and doing so earns "braggin' rights" at the local club. The others tend to kill the weakest first, making the herd stronger.

Think about it.

Daryl

[JACK308]

Thats a bunch of B.S Daryl are you a tree hugger?.

[BigBrute]

No Jack, its fact. In areas where the natural predators of game animals are removed, the population of said game animals skyrocketed. Good right? Wrong.

The populations grow so fast without predators that the animals start to outpavw the food supply, esp. in winter. This causes massive starvation, and results in much smaller herds (and animals) than you would find in a balanced ecosystem.

It's something you learn in high school biology.

I can assure you I am no tree hugger. Should a bear, cougar, wolf or whatever give me enough reason, I would very willingly put it down.
But the sort of mass slaughter you are suggesting has been tried before and has failed. Beyond that, it has RESULTED in the very protection of predators that makes it nearly impossible to defend yourself or your animals.

[Pahoo]

I guess I am amazed as to how a simple question, can be turned into a debate. There might be a good reason why Cougars should not be allowed to move into an area and possibly multiply. I'm not a "Bunny-Hugger" and in fact, I promote and teach ethical hunting. However, I would never promote killing for the sake of killing. Everyone is entitled to their feelings and should not be put down for expressing such. ....

I recal one evening, in a deer stand in Alabama. A Bobcat came into view and I put my crosshairs on him. Then I asked myself, why? Didn't think it would be good eating so I passed on him without regrets. Related this story to the landowner and he got upset that I had not shot it. Seems that he was losing too many Guiney Hens. Told him that he should have said something sooner. Still don't regret taking the shot. .....

Keep it civil and;
Be Safe !!!

[Jason_G]

Many states, Arkansas is one, refuse to officially acknowledge the presence of mountain lions. If they do then there are federal (what else?) requirements to "manage" the population. There are mountain lions in Arkansas but not officially recognized. I don't know what would happen if someone killed one.
BTW, most are pets turned loose when they become difficult to handle or are released by drug dealers who used them for property protection in rural areas. No matter, they are here and the population is growing.

Pretty much the same thing just south of you, bud.

I seen one when I was hunting once, but the game wardens and all the other "officials" would swear up and down we didn't have them, and would just about call you inept or high on dope if you said you saw one. Then they finally caught one outside Natchitoches, LA, close to the Red River. Even then they said it was a lone cat that got lost. Bull.

Pahoo, to answer your question, all I can say is that when that cougar walked out in front of me, I had no inclination to shoot it. I was pretty much mesmerized, 'cause I had never seen one before, and frankly, it was kind of a majestic looking animal. I watched it walk slowly and quietly out of sight. I was amazed at how quietly he walked over those dead crunchy leaves on the forest floor. My only regret is that he didn't stick around a little longer. I didn't feel the need to kill it, even though I knew it would be the only way some folks would believe my story. I have yet to see another one in the woods, but I know they are there, and I try my best to watch my back when I'm in the woods. I know they can be killers, I'm not naive, but they were here before we were. I think they pretty much had most of the US populated before we started expanding westward, and people drove them out of some areas. I guess they are returning in some locations like ours, at least to a limited extent. I don't see the need to shoot them in places like ours. There aren't enough to be considered game animals, and they aren't really wiping out deer.

I wish we could train them to kill hogs!

Jason

[JACK308]

Well BigBrute I guess all the storys I read about wolfs and such are not true.

[Cowboy_mo]

Shoot them now while you conservation department is still denying their existence.

I live in eastern mid Missouri. In the early 1970's we had a horse attached by a cat who slashed his throat and narrowly missed the jugular. The horse survived but other horses and cattle in the area weren't so lucky. At that time MO dept of Conservation said the cats were Mexican panthers simply fleeing the drought stricken south and wouldn't stay in the area. Despite many sitings, they denied that MO had any resident cougars, mountain lions, ( you choose your favorite name) until 2 years ago. Now, they are finally admitting that the cats are here but "not breeding" as they are now "young males" seeking new territory.

To those who think the cougars and wolves shouldn't be killed because they will not harm the deer/elk population and they really do a balance the nature, I would refer you to Darwin's laws. The first law he cited was "survival of the fittest". Hunters have taken over the predatory station previously occupied by the wolves/cougars and these animals are no longer required to control the size of the deer/elk herds. Man can not totally eradicate all the wolves/cougars. Taking enough of them to keep their population in check would be a good thing. The smartest and wariest wolves/cougars will not be seen by man and thus will not be killed.

[PawPaw]

Originally Posted by Jason_G

I seen one when I was hunting once, but the game wardens and all the other "officials" would swear up and down we didn't have them, and would just about call you inept or high on dope if you said you saw one. Then they finally caught one outside Natchitoches, LA, close to the Red River. Even then they said it was a lone cat that got lost. Bull.

Interesting that you should say that. During the period 1981-2003 I owned a little hobby farm in south Natchitoches Parish, near the Red Dirt preserve. My land was on Bayou Derbonne, near Cloutierville. We had at least two cougars in those woods and they stayed there for many years. Locals would see them occasionally and we'd hear them at night, but we all knew that the big cats were there, regardless of what the wildlife weenies might tell us. I had one walk under my deer stand in ~1984. The animal didn't bother me, so I didn't bother it, but it was a cougar, sure enough.

There are big cats all over Louisiana, mainly around swamps and management areas, which really makes it odd that the wildlife folks don't know they're there. Local reports have a breeding population near Deville, LA, close to the Dewey Wills WMA and we've heard cats from my back porch.

Yeah, there are panthers in places where the wildlife folks don't like to admit that they live.

[Art Eatman]

Cougars aren't protected in Texas; see one, shoot one is legal. That hasn't kept their territory from slowly expanding back into eastern Texas.

From what the wildlife biologists of Texas Parks & Wildlife say, I gather that a cougar will kill a deer every week to ten days if it gets the chance. It seems to be the case that they take more mature deer than fawns. Bucks are vulnerable because they're more likely to be alone. Does and yearlings are commonly in groups and thus are generally more aware of hazard.

Coyotes and to a lesser extent bobcats are the big problem for the fawn crop, with mortality rates reported in some areas to be as high as 30% to 40%. But they rarely go after mature deer.

Here's why the numbers are difficult: There was a trapping program for putting radio collars onto cougars in the Chisos Mountains of Big Bend National Park. About 200 square miles. They trapped 22 lions. Now, figure a deer population of six or eight to the section, so that would mean a deer population of 1,200 to 1,600 as a guesstimate. If the "deer per week, per lion" holds, that's a take from the herd of as many a thousand deer in a year. To me, that just doesn't work out. The deer herd numbers seem stable, but you don't see heaps, gobs and bunches.

So any numbers you see are always suspect. About all you can do is generalize and stick a large amount of "some", "it appears that" and all those sorts of qualifiers. Guesstimates. "UnSWAG", maybe.

[Discern]

If it is legal, I would shoot any mountain lion on sight. I say the only good coyote is a dead coyote, but I would rather have to deal with coyotes than mountain lions. The big cats are more capable of killing full grown cattle and horses than a coyote pack. A pack of wolves can also take down mature cattle, horses and big game animals.

[FrankenMauser]

I say the only good coyote is a dead coyote, but I would rather have to deal with coyotes than mountain lions. The big cats are more capable of killing full grown cattle and horses than a coyote pack.

That really depends on what you mean by 'kill'. Jumping on the livestock and ripping its throat out? Okay, I'll give the cat the edge.
Harassing the livestock so it can't eat, running it to death, or barricading it in water (so it can't eat or rest)? Coyotes take that one.

Just because they are capable, doesn't mean they'll do it.

You are perfectly capable of killing every animal (or person) you see. ...But, that doesn't mean you're going to do it.

Big cats are the same way. They only kill to eat. Killing for "fun" or boredom takes too much (precious) energy. And they almost never kill another animal, if they still have a kill to feed on. They also, generally, only kill animals they can carry or drag from the kill site. Last time I checked, most cows and horses are a bit on the heavy side...

Livestock kills do happen, but they're not as prevalent as people claim or believe.

And... many livestock "Cougar" kills are not actually cats. They're often feral dogs, coyotes, the owner's own dogs, or an animal that injured itself.

[MLeake]

I feel bad for these moron cougars. Wonder if it has to do with contaminated groundwater?

[Discern]

FrankenMauser

Where I am originally from, mountain lions have been know to kill mature cattle and horses. They will not put a 1,600 lb carcus in a tree, but that does not stop them from killing large farm animals. You may also have an animal where the gut area has been damaged by the claws to the point the animal may have to be put down. IMO, livestock have a better chance of chasing away coyotes than any mountain lion.

FYI - mountain lions typically kill by breaking the neck. For those animals they cannot break their neck, they will latch onto the throat or mouth to sufficate the animal.

[tahunua001]

Cougars and wolfs should be hunted in EVERY STATE untill there no more! Then the deer,elk will all be safe.

I wouldn't say that...all herd animals need to have a natural predator to get rid of the ill and sickly and older animals...population control. however candian gray wolves are not natural predators and rather than preying on the big old animals they instead go for the fawns and calves. all introduced animals need to be hunted until they are removed and all indigenous predators need to be controlled but not exterminated. cougars are unfortunately indigenous so the ecosystem in many places is dependent on them but when they start to expand territory then they need to be corralled as it were. and the claims that poachers kill more animals than wolves and cougars is complete bunk. in order to do that, for ever wolf and cougar out there, ther would have to be at least 1 poacher than kills at least 1 animal every 2-4 days...that is a completely ignorant accusation and someone needs to stop going to PETA meetings

[Pahoo]

Y'all have brought out another interesting point and that is why are the states DNR's ignoring these documented sightings? Our recent one took better than a week for them to say what it was. In the past, we have had explainations that these are just Cougars passing through. I say; okay passing through to where? ...

By the way, Cougars are not protected in Iowa and shoot if you have to ..

Be Safe !!!

[Jason_G]

Interesting that you should say that. During the period 1981-2003 I owned a little hobby farm in south Natchitoches Parish, near the Red Dirt preserve. My land was on Bayou Derbonne, near Cloutierville. We had at least two cougars in those woods and they stayed there for many years. Locals would see them occasionally and we'd hear them at night, but we all knew that the big cats were there, regardless of what the wildlife weenies might tell us. I had one walk under my deer stand in ~1984. The animal didn't bother me, so I didn't bother it, but it was a cougar, sure enough.

There are big cats all over Louisiana, mainly around swamps and management areas, which really makes it odd that the wildlife folks don't know they're there. Local reports have a breeding population near Deville, LA, close to the Dewey Wills WMA and we've heard cats from my back porch.

Yeah, there are panthers in places where the wildlife folks don't like to admit that they live.

I believe it.

The one I saw was right on the Red River (well, about a mile from it), south of Plain Dealing, and west of Rocky Mount, if you know where those places are at. This was mid to late '90s. About a year or two before I saw it, I had seen some very large claw marks on a muddy clay bluff on the river bank while I was scouting one day. I thought to myself then that it looked like a big cat climbed its way up the bluff. I remembered the game wardens' remarks about how we don't have big cats, and so I figured (against what my gut was saying) that it must be from something else, and it was just coincidence that they looked like claw marks. Little did I know.

Y'all have brought out another interesting point and that is why are the states DNR's ignoring these documented sightings? Our recent one took better than a week for them to say what it was. In the past, we have had explainations that these are just Cougars passing through. I say; okay passing through to where? ...

I think because the cats aren't seen often, and if the wardens or biologists don't see them for themselves, they don't believe it. I mean, heck, I've hunted in this area my whole life, and I've only seen one. I had of course heard tale that we had them, but I guess I didn't know whether to believe it or not either until I saw one with my own two eyes. As for the "passing through" comments, well, those biologists are mighty attached to what they learned in school, including those population maps. To depart from their formal education is tough for some of them. It means admitting they don't know something, or that something they learned was wrong.


Jason

[tahunua001]

I think because the cats aren't seen often, and if the wardens or biologists don't see them for themselves, they don't believe it. I mean, heck, I've hunted in this area my whole life, and I've only seen one. I had of course heard tale that we had them, but I guess I didn't know whether to believe it or not either until I saw one with my own two eyes. As for the "passing through" comments, well, those biologists are mighty attached to what they learned in school, including those population maps. To depart from their formal education is tough for some of them. It means admitting they don't know something, or that something they learned was wrong.

^mostly this
I know for years I was told that there were no grizzlies in these mountains in mid to north idaho but just a while back a pair of black bear hunters shot one because they thought that there were no grizzlies and ended up getting mauled. just think how many people spot bigfoot. just because people spot them doesn't mean that that's what they saw. I knew a woman that swore up and down that she had a lynx that would wander into her back yard and when she finaly caught it in a live trap it turned out to just be a feral tomcat that somewhat resembled a lynx. rather than discount them I take every claim seriously until it's discounted(except for bigfoot that is). I've always been prepared to run into a grizzly even though they "dont exist in that area" and now there is documented proof that there is at least 1 lol. sadly it's going to take one of those bayou cougars walking into town somewhere before people start to take the claims seriously.

[Double Naught Spy]

Big Game does make up a substantial portion of their diet, but Cougars target adult animals, primarily the sick and injured.

It seems to be the case that they take more mature deer than fawns. Bucks are vulnerable because they're more likely to be alone. Does and yearlings are commonly in groups and thus are generally more aware of hazard.

Right, but they will take whatever they can get and if that means fawns, then they eat fawns. We seem to think that a lot of animals only take the sick and injured, but that simply isn't the case at all. They take what is available given a set of risks and rewards, not necessarily consciously, but will generally minimize risk even if it means less reward from what is available. Fawns behave much like the sick and injured. They don't move as fast or with equal agility.

I had seen some very large claw marks on a muddy clay bluff on the river bank while I was scouting one day. I thought to myself then that it looked like a big cat climbed its way up the bluff. I remembered the game wardens' remarks about how we don't have big cats, and so I figured (against what my gut was saying) that it must be from something else, and it was just coincidence that they looked like claw marks. Little did I know.

It is not common to see cat footprints showing claw marks. Cats such as mountain lions walk around with their claws retracted. If you are seeing claw marks, then you probably are not seeing the prints of a mountain lion or other felid.

Y'all have brought out another interesting point and that is why are the states DNR's ignoring these documented sightings?

Well like so many documented sightings, Bigfoot, Lochness monster, Champ, Chupacabras, and space aliens are all documented sightings...without a shred of actual proof that they exist. There are a considerable number of black panther sightings across the US, only the black panther felid does not actually exist. Black jaguars do, but not black panthers. So why would the DNR ignor documented sightings? Simple, untrained observers often are mistaken in what they see.

Contrary to what many believe, biologists are more than willing to be open-minded. They have no problem admitting to not knowing something. In fact, they would love to be the ones associated with documenting range extensions and new species because that means publications and accolades for them. Lots of folks make claims about extremes. Many of the biologists simply want a little more proof than Bubba's story being backed up by his coon dog. The fact that Bubba's 2nd cousin Elmer was once abducted by space aliens does not add credibility.

USFWS, DNR, local game wardens, etc. get a lot of calls about unique and extreme animals, animals of supernatural size, and animals outside of normal ranges. The vast majority of the reports that they get are not valid and they get them frequently.

[Jason_G]

It is not common to see cat footprints showing claw marks. Cats such as mountain lions walk around with their claws retracted. If you are seeing claw marks, then you probably are not seeing the prints of a mountain lion or other felid.

These weren't paw prints on the ground, they were scratched into the wall of an almost upright bluff on the bank of the river.

So why would the DNR ignor documented sightings? Simple, untrained observers often are mistaken in what they see.

Contrary to what many believe, biologists are more than willing to be open-minded. They have no problem admitting to not knowing something. In fact, they would love to be the ones associated with documenting range extensions and new species because that means publications and accolades for them. Lots of folks make claims about extremes. Many of the biologists simply want a little more proof than Bubba's story being backed up by his coon dog. The fact that Bubba's 2nd cousin Elmer was once abducted by space aliens does not add credibility.

That sort of thinking is just what exemplifies my point. When some of these biologists and wardens hear anyone who makes a claim that something unusual is in a certain area, they chalk it up to "Bubba had too many Budweisers", instead of considering for a minute that just because Bubba may not have a college degree, and spends his time in the woods, doesn't mean that he is an inbred hick who can't tell the difference between a coyote, bobcat, and a mountain lion. Not all, but most of the wildlife management folks around here (that I've spoken to) are that way. And as mentioned above, even when they are confronted with proof in the form of a captured frickin' live cat, they say "oh, he was just lost and wandered down the river." Wandered from where? I'm just saying, not all of these biologists and wardens are open minded.


Jason

[Pahoo]

Well like so many documented sightings, Bigfoot, Lochness monster, Champ, Chupacabras, and space aliens are all documented sightings...without a shred of actual proof that they exist

Read my post again and you will see that to me, documented proof means actual trail camera pictures. This would also include finding any remains of such. This is opposed to the mythical creatures you have listed. ...

The link;
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/art...n-trail-camera

Be Safe !!!