223 Reloading for an AR15.

ditty22 · December 2, 2005, 05:39 PM

what kinda die set do i need for reloading .223 for my ar15? I was told that i dont want a full size resizer die is this true? thanks ditti

**Unclenick** · December 2, 2005, 06:24 PM

No. In general, any cartridge that feeds from a magazine, and self-loading rifles in particular, require full-length resizing to have enough play to move from the magazine into the chamber quickly without binding. If you neck size only, you will be able to load and shoot those rounds singly, but they won't feed reliably in semi-auto mode.

It is true that cases last through fewer reloadings when you full-length resize. 5 times for reload life is not uncommon in rifles, and you will probably have to trim them twice in that time. But that's just part of the cost of running a semi-auto. Bench rest shooters size only the neck, and get up to 50 reloads out of cases. They also shoot special chambers that are under-SAMMI spec at the neck for cases with turned necks that barely let go of the bullet. So they have litte resizing to do.

Just get a set of standard .223 dies to start. Lee is inexpensive and will work fine. If you need better accuracy add a Redding Competition Seater die in place of the Lee seating die. I recommend you use the Lee Factory Crimp die only with careful experimentation. Some report great results with it, some not. It it peculiar to the gun involved.

Nick

yorec · December 2, 2005, 06:28 PM

No, no - you absolutely DO want a full length resizing die. The reason for this is that semi automatics don't function well when the brass hangs up unneccessarily in the chamber, thier extraction process depending on a set force provided by thier inner mechanisms. A neck sized round will hang up like thism, having already been expanded from a previous firing. The extra force needed to extract will cause FTEs galore, so you've gotta full length resize ANY semi auto rifle round to return the cartridge as much as possible to factory specs.

Hope that made sense to ya.

Tim R · December 2, 2005, 08:08 PM

You will need a Full length sizing die as others have already brought up. I load for a match AR service rifle. I use a Hornaday match bushing die for sizing and a Forster match seating die. As Unclenick stated, the Redding match die is indeed a good one but won't stand up to seating bullets on a compressed load. The Forster will. The bushing dies allow for you to figure out just how much neck tension you want on your bullet. The bushings are bought seperatly.

I ordered a Hornady bushing neck size only die by mistake......it didn't work. I could not get rounds to chamber and when I did, I had to bump the butt stock on the floor to help get the bolt open. Bad, very bad.

I also really like Reloader 15 for the 223 as well as Remington 7 1/2 BR primers.

Ken O · December 2, 2005, 09:13 PM

I do about the same as Tim, but I use a RCBS X-die so I dont have to trim. I get the neck size by polishing down the expander ball to give the neck size I want, if I remember right I have .003 less than the bullet.
I use the Forester competition micrometer seater also for the 80s for 600yds so I can get the bullet where I want it into the lands, I use the RCBS seater that came with the X-dies for seating the mag legnth bullets for the short lines. I also use Reloader 15, and Reminton 7½ primers. Yes, you need to full legnth resize.
You should pick up a comparitor and case gage, I have the Stoney Point, then you can bump the shoulder for what your chamber needs.

ditty22 · December 2, 2005, 09:22 PM

ok now that im looking at the dies on midways site i think he was talking about a small base die? is this better then some of the others or what?

Tim R · December 4, 2005, 05:50 AM

I have 3 GI gas guns, 2 with match chambers. None require the use of a small base die. There are those who might need a small base die, but if your rifle doesn't why work the brass so hard?

Ken O · December 4, 2005, 07:17 PM

I've never seen the need for small base dies, the less you work the brass the better, bolt gunners just neck size. Like I said in my post above, if you get a case gage of some kind, just work the brass enough to be reliable. The only reason you might need small base dies is if your chamber is extremly tight, which can happen if the chamber reamer making your barrel is worn out. My ARs are from WOP, and I have two M1s from the CMP, I have several brands of dies for both and they all work just fine including the very inexpensive Lees.

**Unclenick** · December 4, 2005, 08:08 PM

Ditty,

I agree with Ken. Small base will not only chew up brass faster, it will cause the assembled cartridge to lay at a slightly lower angle in the chamber and may cost you a little bit of accuracy because of that. They are strictly for really tight chambers and loading problems (which usually mean the magazine needs tweaking). You generally want the fattest case that feeds reliably so it holds the bullet as concentrically with the bore axis as is possible in the chamber. This means adjusting the dies for the minimum of shoulder setback you can get away with. Redding makes a set of variable thicknes shell holder for this purpose. You need more setback for the rounds to be magazine fed (keep in mind the cases don't all spring back from sizing exactly the same amount, so you need an allowance for that, too). You can neck size your single-loaded long range rounds if you want, but I find that a .002" shoulder setback for long range remains very accurate in my gun, and always loads easily.

Get a copy of Glen Zediker's book, Handloading for Competition, to get a really good overview of all you can get involved in if you choose to.

Tim R.,

I've run lightly compressed .308 loads of Varget in my Redding without trouble. What was your experience with this? I'm not married to Redding; if the Forster is better, I want to know about it. I got started with the Redding after because I got a Bonanza concentricity tester back when I was still using the Garand in leg matches. If found that it always yielded runout under .001" in cases with uniform neck wall thickness, where the side loading RCBS my dad had was only half that good.

Nick

ditty22 · December 10, 2005, 01:25 PM

Ok well i took a trip back out to the reloading shop and talked dies with the guy again and he said to go with the small base die because the brass swells up at the base and it would not feed/chamber right? thanks ditty

Tim R · December 11, 2005, 10:30 AM

Ditty, the guy at the gun shop might be a smart guy, but his advice is flawed for 95% of the service rifles out there.

UncleNick.... I'll get back to you when I get home from work. I gotta go now.

ditty22 · December 11, 2005, 05:57 PM

thanks i feel better now

Tim R · December 11, 2005, 08:44 PM

UncleNick, as I understand you are loading 308? I don't think you can stick enough powder in a 308 case used in a USGI gas gun to worry about. I use a Redding match seating die for reloading 308 used in my match M-1 using GI brass, 168 gr. SMK and IMR 4895.

The problem with the Redding match seating die is the sleeve which compresses as you seat the bullet expands when met with resistance from trying to seat a bullet on top of a case full of powder. Once expanded, it moves no more.

If you use Vit Choi or what ever that expensive powder from the other side of the ocean is and use enough VV 540 to get a heavy 223 going at mach 15 in your AR, then you will have to compress your load. Reddings answer is don't make compressed loads. The Forster is built like a truck but works the same way as the Redding. There have been no reports that I know of which the Forster has had the same problem.

Both my Redding and Forster have the micrometer tops.

Ditty, I'm sure any of the good dies will work just fine for you. Follow directions on setting up your sizing die and have a blast!

Lycanthrope · December 11, 2005, 08:52 PM

The small base dies can be a pain, unlesss your AR is chambered in .223. If you ever shoot 5.56 out of a 5.56 chamber, the small base dies can make sizing really tight and stuck cases can suck the fun out of reloading very, very fast.

I also recommend the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Bullet setback in an AR can be a bad thing and if done correctly, won't hurt your accuracy.

Bullet94 · December 11, 2005, 10:09 PM

ditty22

I use Redding dies.
If you don’t have these you might want them –

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/...600&type=store

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/...83X&type=store

Tacoma · December 12, 2005, 07:06 PM

My bushy will not feed a reload unless it's built with a Small based die. Been like that since day one.

Lloyd Smale · December 13, 2005, 06:14 AM

ive had some guns that need small based dies and some that dont. I just use sb on all of them now as if figure that the main use for an ar is self defense and why take a chance on reliabilty to get a couple more firings from a piece of brass thats dirt cheap.

December 2, 2005, 05:39 PM	#1
ditty22 Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 24	223 Reloading for an AR15. what kinda die set do i need for reloading .223 for my ar15? I was told that i dont want a full size resizer die is this true? thanks ditti

December 2, 2005, 06:28 PM	#3
yorec Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,328	No, no - you absolutely DO want a full length resizing die. The reason for this is that semi automatics don't function well when the brass hangs up unneccessarily in the chamber, thier extraction process depending on a set force provided by thier inner mechanisms. A neck sized round will hang up like thism, having already been expanded from a previous firing. The extra force needed to extract will cause FTEs galore, so you've gotta full length resize ANY semi auto rifle round to return the cartridge as much as possible to factory specs. Hope that made sense to ya. __________________ What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

December 2, 2005, 08:08 PM	#4
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	You will need a Full length sizing die as others have already brought up. I load for a match AR service rifle. I use a Hornaday match bushing die for sizing and a Forster match seating die. As Unclenick stated, the Redding match die is indeed a good one but won't stand up to seating bullets on a compressed load. The Forster will. The bushing dies allow for you to figure out just how much neck tension you want on your bullet. The bushings are bought seperatly. I ordered a Hornady bushing neck size only die by mistake......it didn't work. I could not get rounds to chamber and when I did, I had to bump the butt stock on the floor to help get the bolt open. Bad, very bad. I also really like Reloader 15 for the 223 as well as Remington 7 1/2 BR primers. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

December 4, 2005, 05:50 AM	#7
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	I have 3 GI gas guns, 2 with match chambers. None require the use of a small base die. There are those who might need a small base die, but if your rifle doesn't why work the brass so hard? __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

December 11, 2005, 10:30 AM	#11
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	Ditty, the guy at the gun shop might be a smart guy, but his advice is flawed for 95% of the service rifles out there. UncleNick.... I'll get back to you when I get home from work. I gotta go now. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

December 2, 2005, 06:24 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	No. In general, any cartridge that feeds from a magazine, and self-loading rifles in particular, require full-length resizing to have enough play to move from the magazine into the chamber quickly without binding. If you neck size only, you will be able to load and shoot those rounds singly, but they won't feed reliably in semi-auto mode. It is true that cases last through fewer reloadings when you full-length resize. 5 times for reload life is not uncommon in rifles, and you will probably have to trim them twice in that time. But that's just part of the cost of running a semi-auto. Bench rest shooters size only the neck, and get up to 50 reloads out of cases. They also shoot special chambers that are under-SAMMI spec at the neck for cases with turned necks that barely let go of the bullet. So they have litte resizing to do. Just get a set of standard .223 dies to start. Lee is inexpensive and will work fine. If you need better accuracy add a Redding Competition Seater die in place of the Lee seating die. I recommend you use the Lee Factory Crimp die only with careful experimentation. Some report great results with it, some not. It it peculiar to the gun involved. Nick

December 2, 2005, 09:13 PM	#5
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	I do about the same as Tim, but I use a RCBS X-die so I dont have to trim. I get the neck size by polishing down the expander ball to give the neck size I want, if I remember right I have .003 less than the bullet. I use the Forester competition micrometer seater also for the 80s for 600yds so I can get the bullet where I want it into the lands, I use the RCBS seater that came with the X-dies for seating the mag legnth bullets for the short lines. I also use Reloader 15, and Reminton 7½ primers. Yes, you need to full legnth resize. You should pick up a comparitor and case gage, I have the Stoney Point, then you can bump the shoulder for what your chamber needs.

December 2, 2005, 09:22 PM	#6
ditty22 Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 24	ok now that im looking at the dies on midways site i think he was talking about a small base die? is this better then some of the others or what?

December 4, 2005, 07:17 PM	#8
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	I've never seen the need for small base dies, the less you work the brass the better, bolt gunners just neck size. Like I said in my post above, if you get a case gage of some kind, just work the brass enough to be reliable. The only reason you might need small base dies is if your chamber is extremly tight, which can happen if the chamber reamer making your barrel is worn out. My ARs are from WOP, and I have two M1s from the CMP, I have several brands of dies for both and they all work just fine including the very inexpensive Lees.

December 4, 2005, 08:08 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Ditty, I agree with Ken. Small base will not only chew up brass faster, it will cause the assembled cartridge to lay at a slightly lower angle in the chamber and may cost you a little bit of accuracy because of that. They are strictly for really tight chambers and loading problems (which usually mean the magazine needs tweaking). You generally want the fattest case that feeds reliably so it holds the bullet as concentrically with the bore axis as is possible in the chamber. This means adjusting the dies for the minimum of shoulder setback you can get away with. Redding makes a set of variable thicknes shell holder for this purpose. You need more setback for the rounds to be magazine fed (keep in mind the cases don't all spring back from sizing exactly the same amount, so you need an allowance for that, too). You can neck size your single-loaded long range rounds if you want, but I find that a .002" shoulder setback for long range remains very accurate in my gun, and always loads easily. Get a copy of Glen Zediker's book, Handloading for Competition, to get a really good overview of all you can get involved in if you choose to. Tim R., I've run lightly compressed .308 loads of Varget in my Redding without trouble. What was your experience with this? I'm not married to Redding; if the Forster is better, I want to know about it. I got started with the Redding after because I got a Bonanza concentricity tester back when I was still using the Garand in leg matches. If found that it always yielded runout under .001" in cases with uniform neck wall thickness, where the side loading RCBS my dad had was only half that good. Nick

December 10, 2005, 01:25 PM	#10
ditty22 Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 24	Ok well i took a trip back out to the reloading shop and talked dies with the guy again and he said to go with the small base die because the brass swells up at the base and it would not feed/chamber right? thanks ditty

December 11, 2005, 05:57 PM	#12
ditty22 Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 24	thanks i feel better now

December 11, 2005, 08:44 PM	#13
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	UncleNick, as I understand you are loading 308? I don't think you can stick enough powder in a 308 case used in a USGI gas gun to worry about. I use a Redding match seating die for reloading 308 used in my match M-1 using GI brass, 168 gr. SMK and IMR 4895. The problem with the Redding match seating die is the sleeve which compresses as you seat the bullet expands when met with resistance from trying to seat a bullet on top of a case full of powder. Once expanded, it moves no more. If you use Vit Choi or what ever that expensive powder from the other side of the ocean is and use enough VV 540 to get a heavy 223 going at mach 15 in your AR, then you will have to compress your load. Reddings answer is don't make compressed loads. The Forster is built like a truck but works the same way as the Redding. There have been no reports that I know of which the Forster has had the same problem. Both my Redding and Forster have the micrometer tops. Ditty, I'm sure any of the good dies will work just fine for you. Follow directions on setting up your sizing die and have a blast! __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

December 11, 2005, 08:52 PM	#14
Lycanthrope Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2001 Location: PA Posts: 1,752	The small base dies can be a pain, unlesss your AR is chambered in .223. If you ever shoot 5.56 out of a 5.56 chamber, the small base dies can make sizing really tight and stuck cases can suck the fun out of reloading very, very fast. I also recommend the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Bullet setback in an AR can be a bad thing and if done correctly, won't hurt your accuracy.

December 11, 2005, 10:09 PM	#15
Bullet94 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2004 Location: Kansas Posts: 723	ditty22 I use Redding dies. If you don’t have these you might want them – http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/...600&type=store http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/...83X&type=store __________________ PRO-SECOND AMENDMENT - Live Free or Die

December 12, 2005, 07:06 PM	#16
Tacoma Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2004 Location: SE New England Posts: 620	My bushy will not feed a reload unless it's built with a Small based die. Been like that since day one.

December 13, 2005, 06:14 AM	#17
Lloyd Smale Junior member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Posts: 822	ive had some guns that need small based dies and some that dont. I just use sb on all of them now as if figure that the main use for an ar is self defense and why take a chance on reliabilty to get a couple more firings from a piece of brass thats dirt cheap.