So what's the big BBQ glove for when shooting CMP service rifle ?

[Metal god]

In the case of Service Rifle, so far all I see is that a shooter with a good upper with a good barrel, a good lower with a good trigger, good ammo, a coat and a BBQ glove can win matches if they're up to it.

Cool , I have a Match grade 1-8 twist 5r rifled barrel on the way , Giesslie service rifle trigger , free float sleeve , Matched upper and lower , I reload and plan to get some sort of jacket and ov-glove . Sounds like all I'll need to do is show up and pick up my prize Hmm and all this time I thought I'd have to shoot the rifle too .

I'm really just kidding about all that but I guess I should not be surprised about how some may feel about competition . After all most of us that have competed in what ever sport are competitive at are core and don't like to loose . I feel I'm lucky is some ways . I've played on teams that did not win a game and teams that won championships . I have felt both side winning and loosing . It has aloud me to have fun while loosing and not strut while winning . At this time I only have one goal for my first comp . That is not to come in last , that would really suck .

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by Metal god

Cool , I have a Match grade 1-8 twist 5r rifled barrel on the way , Giesslie service rifle trigger , free float sleeve , Matched upper and lower , I reload and plan to get some sort of jacket and ov-glove . Sounds like all I'll need to do is show up and pick up my prise Hmm and all this time I thought I'd have to shoot the rifle too

Cool, indeed.

FWIW, I put together a decent "standard" set up earlier in the spring, whipped up a "standard" load, and have been practicing my standing slow fire almost exclusively. I've got about 1,200 rounds down the tube, and am averaging a SF 187 on an SR-1 target at 100 yards. I shot a personal best of 193 last week (pic below). Time to start working on load development as well as sitting and prone, but I'm satisfied I've so far made good choices regarding my gear.


Standing, slow fire, 100 yards, SR-1 target:

[Metal god]

( did I really spell prize with an "s" ) Fixed

That's some nice shooting as far as I'm concerned . I'm going out tomorrow to shoot again . I'll have targets at 1,2 & 300yds . I'll be using my carbine again that has a mil-spec trigger and fixed Troy battle sight with what I assume is your two standard apertures . The sight works pretty good but I would love to have a much smaller aperture for it . I'll only have my 55gr-fmj ammo I loaded as well . It shoots good though , I was shooting sub moa with a build I helped my dad with . We took his rifle out last week for the first time . It shoots real nice for a $770 rifle . I'll do a review on it soon .

Anyway tomorrow should be fun . My new rifle will not be finish until August so all I have to practice with is my carbine . I just hope using the carbine to practice does not give me any bad habits .

[P-990]

Sounds like a good rig Metal, it won't hold you back! Just hope you're not too attached to the barrel, barrels are consumable once you get into a real habit.

It's been a couple of years since I picked up my gear, but in my experience any stock Rock River, Armalite, WOA upper, etc is perfectly capable of winning anywhere Service Rifle is fired. The targets aren't that small and the accuracy required to shoot cleans isn't too demanding, at least of the gear.

Since we've drifted a little, I'll throw out some thoughts.

1) Learn to shoot offhand. You will never, ever win anything until you're comfortable shooting on your feet. See MrBorland's target for reference on what you want to be able to do. (BTW, I see a High Master card in somebody's future.)

2) Learn to shoot prone slow. Yes, it's the most stable and easiest position to shoot. Which is why small inconsistencies translate to noticeable dispersion downrange. I didn't really get good at shooting prone slow until I shot a winter of 50' smallbore and learned how to minimize my movement running the rifle.

3) Don't stress over the details of the ammo and load development. This is not to say just load and go. But for short range ammo, find a combination you can load reliably on a progressive or with just hand thrown charges. Spend your time on dry-fire and practice. On 600-yard ammo, be fussy and find what your barrel likes, though you'll find Sierra and Nosler 80gr .224 bullets have a fairly generous sweet spot where they will shoot from good to great. (I like to load 80gr Noslers about .015-020" off the lands.)

4) Don't be attached to your barrel and keep a round count! Many shooters I used to shoot with (and myself) like the inexpensive Wilson SS barrels. They shoot really well and for $250, you don't cry when you decide to take it off just because it has 3500-4000 rounds on it.

After writing all that I want to go back and finish my DR badge (26 points picked up, with 2 hard Regional legs) and maybe head to Perry to try for a P-100.

Good luck to all!

[4V50 Gary]

Why the BBQ mitt? Loop sling. Sling is tight against the arm and the hand that supports the forearm. The mitt keeps the sling's leather from cutting into the hand.

[MrBorland]

MG -

I'm new to the whole rifle thing, but P-990's advice seems spot-on. At least, that's the route I've taken so far, and it's been working out well. I've focused on standing SF to date for the reason P-990 articulated, but I'm going to start incorporating prone SF shooting into my practice sessions soon. My range only goes to 300 yards, but I'm fortunate Camp Butner is less than 30 minute away, so I'll have opportunities to shoot full XTC matches.

Good luck!

[Bart B.]

So you've never bought a shooting "goodie" because it "gives you an edge" over the competition?

No, I've not. The only reason I bought something that may be a shooting "goodie" was to improve my own performance or that of my rifle and ammo. I've never competed against anyone so I've no interest nor desire to have an edge over the other competitors. I compete with them. I compete only against myself. I'm the one who makes my scores what they are. So it's in my interest to improve my stuff; rifle, ammo and abilities.

You were right about how shooting USED to be though. It was a challenge of individual skill. You'd "lay in the dirt" & try to best both yourself & everyone else on the firing line as hard as you could. Then at the end of the day you'd sit in the bar with those same people considering them great company as you dissected the days successes & not so successful things.

It's still a challenge of individual skill. But the results vary by equipment used, too. But the best equipment isn't always the most accurate. Some match winners and record setters with a choice of several arms pick the one with the best trigger but not the best accuracy. That happened at the USA Nationals some years ago.

Now even "F" class is a gadget game. Everything is the gun's ability. Bags fore & aft, rests with micrometer adjustments & bull barrels you could use to mount a street light on.?

Benchrest is much the same. But one still has to position the rifle the same for each shot and compensate for the atmospheric conditions; there is a lot of skill and knowledge involved in that.

My point was that individual skills were replaced by an obsession with the latest "sanctioned" gadget, & that those were reducing the need for actual skills in competitors accordingly

Many shooting gadgets have marketing behind them that influences the ignorant and entertains the knowledgable. I learned decades ago to do those few things that are important right and forget all the rest. For example, total preparation of cases. Get decent ones to start with and they don't need any prep to shoot 1/4 MOA through 200 yards or 1/2 MOA at 1000.

I've heard several times that it's "impossible" to hit a bulls-eye at 1,000 yards without a scope! Even after explaining that its a BIG bullseye on a 5' X 5' target its supposedly not doable. I have no idea how they think Palma is conducted as its obviously totally not doable!

As most folks are familiar with targets with aiming bulls 4 to 8 inches diameter for use up through 100 yards, they often think the same size bull is used in Palma matches. When I've tactfully explained that a 2.2" bull can be seen and aimed at 50 yards away, they all find it easy to understand how a 44" bull can be seen at 1000 yards.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I don't care what the game is, I find it amusing that folks think that equipment can replace skill.

If I played against Tiger Woods and he used my clubs and I used his, guess who would win? If I played against Tiger and he used nothing but a Pitching Wedge, guess who would win?

In it's simplest form, the results of any contest are, Winner (or Score) = Equipment+Skill+Knowledge.

My skill and knowledge at golf is so poor that no equipment in the world can give me a better score than Tiger and his skill and knowledge are so great that no lack of equipment can reduce him enough that I can win. I'm confident that he could play the entire match with a baseball bat and still beat me.

Likewise, I could use a match winning 1,000 yard rifle and ammo and let the guy who won the match with it use my rifle and ammo and guess who would win? I suck at golf but I don't suck at shooting a rifle. I'm no National Match winner but I don't suck. Still, no equipment can make me beat the best and the odds are good that the best would still beat me, even if they used my equipment.

The equipment only makes the best better. It doesn't make the mediocre or poor the best.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

False dichotomy. It's not either / or. It's a continuum.... equipment most certainly CAN replace skill at some point on the scale, if by "replacing skill", you mean being the difference between winning or losing. If Tiger had to use a shovel instead of a pitching wedge, and you had all your clubs, who would win? A tree branch he found at the first tee?

[Brian Pfleuger]

False dichotomy?

How about Reductio ad absurdum?

Obviously, if you take away any and all equipment that can reasonably be used to play the game... well... the game can't really be played, now can it?

Likewise, I could beat the best 1,000 yard rifle shooter in the world if I used my own .243 and he used a 10/22.

That's not the point.

The point is that great equipment doesn't make a crappy (or even mediocre) player beat the best players. Great equipment can make you better and it can make the best better but it does not make not-the-best into the best unless they were already very darn close to the best. If it does, the previous-best can simply get that same equipment and they'll be the best again.

[Bart B.]

There once was a guy on the internet claiming David Tubb or Mid Tomkins could win the USA NRA Nationals or any match they shot in using a standard issue AK47 and ordinary ball ammo.

Then someone came along and commented to the tune of: "What if the guys who placed second through fourth a few points lower at the Nationals right behind David and Mid were there with their top quality match rifles and ammo? Would they also shoot scores down low where those two would shooting that AK47?"

[Jim Watson]

Yeah, that is kind of silly.
But as I often say, the High Masters don't need the very best in gear to beat me, they need the very best to keep up with the other High Masters.

[MrBorland]

Another subtle point worth mentioning: The nature of competition doesn't guarantee the best will win - the best that day wins. On average, it's the better shooter, but it ain't always so. Shoot your best, and let the chips fall where they may.

Last year, I beat a reigning IDPA National Champion in one of their Big 3. He made a mistake and I was one his heels. It was tight, and he's the better shooter, but I went home with hardware and he went home with bupkis. We were both using gear that's pretty standard for the sport and I seriously doubt better gear would've made much difference, but lesser gear likely would have.

[Metal god]

I just got back from the range . I'm here to tell ya that I need a BBQ mitt and a jacket or at least something to protect my left arm and elbows . Being slung up tight is hard on the arm and wrist , at least for me it was . The sling was digging into my wrist and cutting the circulation off to my arm . Granted I was not using the right firearm or sling for the job and the right ones may have been better on the arm . Like I said I used my carbine with mil-spec trigger and Magpul furniture and a cheap nylon sling .

I'll post pics of my targets as soon as I get them loaded . I shot 20rds standing free hand ( is that SF ) at 100yds and 10rds at 200yds SF, I also shot 300yds prone and tried a few rounds sitting at 100 and 200yds . Again I'm not going to win anything with the way I shot today but I am encouraged .

I need some lessons on how to shoot prone . It by far was the hardest on my back . I cramped up so fast and really rushed the shots because of that . I did manage to get 7 of ten shots on target though . I also had 7 of 10 shots on target at 200yds SF . I think I had all 20 shots on target at 100yds but the score would not have been good . I was really kinda winging it today because i never adjusted my front sight post ( rear is fixed ) The gun was sighted in at 50yds the first time I ever shot it and I have not touched the sights since . I'm not sure If I'm waisting my time practicing with this gun or not . Maybe I should put a carry handle on it . That way I could adjust for each distance and put a smaller aperture on it . I don't know but I did have fun today .

[Metal god]

Heres the rifle


20 shots at 100 yards That's a 6" shoot-n-see and I only see 18 hits


10 shots 200 yards standing


and my 300yd prone pretty much looked the same as my 200yd target

[cryogenic419]

Saw some others have mentioned it but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

The glove helps in a few areas. It helps kill your heartbeat pulse from transferring to the rifle. Not so much an issue at 100 yards but try shooting out to 600 with and without one and you'll see the difference. It also provides cushioning of sorts when using the sling.

A shooting jacket while not ABSOLUTELY necessary is very helpful. When shooting in offhand it helps stiffen you up so you aren't swaying. It usually provides some sort of surface that helps hold the buttstock in place. It provides some sort of cushioning for your elbows when in prone position, there are usually pads of some sort that also help with keeping your elbows from sliding around on the shooting mat. They also help prevent heartbeat pulse from transferring from the sling to the rifle.

A shooting glove or mitt is usually pretty inexpensive, considering the benefits you reap from it I would say its a must have. The jacket is pretty important too, however the cost is usually pretty high. You can achieve some of the same benefits from just wearing a sweatshirt or 2. Or improvise like I have, I am currently using a Carhartt winter coat that is a bunch of years old and I outgrew. Yup... wearing asubzero arctic coat in the middle of July at Camp Perry in 3 weeks haha. Hotter than hell but it works.

Equipment matters to a point but it isn't everything. Best gear in the world wont make you a better shooter, practice does. Some things help you hone the technique but at the end of the day it all comes down to your abilities. Start out with the basics, a decent gun, decent ammo, a shooting mat, nylon sling, and a basic shooting glove. Keep track of your progress.

I don't know your part of the country too well but is there anyplace that does highpower matches in your area? If so, go to one of them and watch them, get an idea of what they are doing, what kind of gear ordinary folks are actually using, I think you may be surprised. Talk to whoever is running the match and ask them if they ever do highpower clinics. You may even find someone there to show you the basics after the match.

If you are feeling REALLY adventurous they hold a firing school at Camp Perry every summer during the National Matches where the Army Marksmanship unit teaches you how to do this and do it well.

http://odcmp.com/NM/SAFS.htm

[old roper]

If equipment doesn't make a difference why do they need it. When I was playing golf sure Tiger Woods could be beat me with my club but didn't need 15 other things to do it.

You build a rifle that needs gloves/coat etc and the talent is the whole package.

[Bart B.]

It's also like finding out where you're at afloat in a boat at sea.

Learn to read the stars at night as Polyneseans did centuries ago and be within a hundred miles.

Do celestial navigation with a good sextant, navigator's almanac and clock. Do the math longhand or with a calculator. If your clock's not accurate, you'll be off by up to 500 yards for each second of error. If the angles read off the sextant at incorrect, you'll be off over 2000 yards for each minute of angle.

Get a cheap GPS receiver and be off 10 to 20 feet.

How accurate do you want to be?

[Metal god]

How accurate do you want to be? Get a cheap GPS receiver and be off 10 to 20 feet.

Well I'd have to say that I'd like to be closer then 10 to 20 feet from the bull

I like to set goals and then when met push it further . Sure I'd love to say I'd like my accuracy to be all in the x ring but really for now I want all shots on the scoreable target area . Once that happens I'll want all in the black for each appropriate target and distance . Then I'll want to be competitive or even start winning .

The reason this has been encouraging even though I'm not shooting all that well is the fact this has been the first time I have ever shot with irons at these distances . Until last week I would never had tried to shoot 200yds standing off hand . I would have never thought I would hit the target . Now that I know I can , with close to no training or practice and a firearm although capable is not what one would want to use for real accuracy . I think my goals can not only be met I'd like to think in a year or two I may even be competitive .

There are a few things that will be a must that have nothing to do with the equipment and all to do with how bad I want to reach my goals .

The big one will be my physical fitness . I cramped up quite quick when shooting prone and I was not shooting long in that position . That was not pleasant and took a bit of time to get relaxed again . I'm a big guy and a bit over weight 6'3" 265lbs . I've always been a big guy and been physically active but I'm at the point that I'm not getting any younger . Stretching out before shooting prone next time may be a good idea . Loosing 10 or 15lbs may not hurt My point is I do recognize the equipment will only help so much if I really want to get better .

I'm sure there is a way to shoot prone and be relaxed at the same time . I just don't know what that is yet . Bart I remember you a while back recommending a book or video that explained shooting prone . At least I think it was you . If you or anyone else has a good tutorial in all shooting positions really that I can check out that would be great .

Should I even bother to practice getting into position with equipment that I will not be using and is quite different then what I'll be using ? I could put my A2 lower on the carbine upper and use a carry handle . That would get it closer to what the rifle would ultimately be ??? I have a few things on back order and my rifle will not be done till August-ish some time

[4EVERM-14]

In reading the posts there seems to be an over emphasis on winning. It's natural and part of the game. However, for most of the high end competitors I've been fortunate enough to shoot with view the match as a social event. A chance to be with others of like interest and enjoy a day at the range. Their idea of winning is not making mistakes. For it is the person with the fewest errors who makes the top of the results. On any given day the best shooters are just as capable of shooting a miss as the beginner marksman. At the beginning of the match everyone can consider themselves a potential top dog. Yes there are some who feel winning is the only reason to enter but considering that rifle shooting does not always offer thousands of dollars in prizes doing your best and avoiding mistakes becomes a personal accomplishment. I've always preferred to look at my performance rather then the score. Focusing on performance yields fewer crashes equaling higher score. So relax, focus on the task at hand but always have fun. Ask other about their equipment. Ask about technique. Highpower shooters will always help. I would never have made High Master without other shooter assistance.

Check the CMP website for books and videos about service rifle shooting.

David

[Bart B.]

David, how right you are.

If you follow the results of the top few dozen high power match rifle or service rifle shooters, you'll see they move up and down on the scoreboard for both match and aggregate results. None of them stay at the same level day after week after month. Same thing for all those in all classification levels.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by Metal god

I'm sure there is a way to shoot prone and be relaxed at the same time . I just don't know what that is yet . Bart I remember you a while back recommending a book or video that explained shooting prone . At least I think it was you . If you or anyone else has a good tutorial in all shooting positions really that I can check out that would be great .

I'll defer to experienced rifle shooters on prone tips. I'm going through Tubbs' book now, which has been helpful, but I suspect there's some stuff in there that works for him, yet might not be universal, so I don't necessarily take it as gospel.

The only other thing I can say (after practicing smallbore prone this past winter) is that prone got more comfy the more I used it. It was kinda like a bicycle seat - those first few rides are pretty rough .

Originally Posted by 4EVERM-14

In reading the posts there seems to be an over emphasis on winning. It's natural and part of the game. However, for most of the high end competitors I've been fortunate enough to shoot with view the match as a social event. A chance to be with others of like interest and enjoy a day at the range. Their idea of winning is not making mistakes. For it is the person with the fewest errors who makes the top of the results.

As I wrote earlier "Shoot your best, and let the chips fall where they may." To overly focus on winning is a distraction, especially during a match, since it's not being focused on the process of shooting your best. An over-focus on winning also risks making it part of your identity or self-worth, which can make you pretty miserable in the long run.

That said, there's not a thing wrong with being happy for or proud of a win. Nor is there a thing wrong with it providing a little extra motivation during your training. Winning feels good, plain and simple. Enjoy it when you can, I say!

[P-990]

First off, despite my earlier emphasis, I agree winning isn't everything and shouldn't be the only reason to shoot.

Secondly prone should be comfortable. Done properly you should feel like you're just lying on the ground behind your rifle. I'm actually surprised I never fell asleep at the stock while waiting out at Perry a time or three. Let me see if I can articulate how I set-up a prone position and if it may help you.

1) Start by slinging into the rifle. Make sure you have enough tension to hold the rifle in place. I find when properly slung in, my support hand is held in place by the sling across the back of my hand (reason #1 for the BBQ mitt! ) and I can control and move the rifle without my firing grip.

2) Lay down on the mat. I use a cocked-leg position, which I find frees up my firing hand to move about to work on a log book and grab ammo while shooting. Rotate your legs and waist around your support arm (forward) elbow until the rifle is pointed at the target.

3) Place the butt of the rifle into your shoulder, lay down on the stock and take your firing position. See where you're pointing. If the elevation is off, move the position of your support hand until the elevation is correct. Make sure you keep the buttstock where you can comfortably center your eye behind the aperture.

4) Close your eyes, breath and relax all of your muscles. You're checking for NPA. There should be no muscle tension pulling the rifle onto the target. Open your eyes and check the sights, adjust your position as needed.

5) Dry-fire a few times, checking for NPA and repeatability. Again, don't try to use your muscles to pull the rifle onto the target. Your body is going to relax when the trigger breaks, what you're trying to make sure is that you don't move the sights off target when this happens.

Oh, and since I forgot at the beginning: lay out all of the items you want to be able to access within arm's reach. Ammo, notebook, clip board. It sounds simple but may take a little practice to fine-tune. Same with the spotting scope. You want to set it up so you don't have to break position to see through it.

Hopefully that helps some. If you can find a local shooter who is willing to coach you, I'm sure 30 minutes would be more valuable my few words with no pictures.

Later I may attempt to describe offhand.

[cryogenic419]

Something else that may help

CMP has a DVD with the USAMU.

http://estore.thecmp.org/store/catal...t&ID=784DVDBRM

+1 on winning isn't everything. Realistically you are going to initially come across shooters who will mop the floor with you. Sometimes that means the teenage girl shooting next to you is going to shoot better than you. Just accept it. Remember you're supposed to be having fun. Start off with keeping track of your scores. When you go to the range for practice, keep track of how you well you shoot. Shoot your first match and see if you can beat your score at the next match. Keep track of your progress over the course of a year. Keeping track of everything will give you the ability to look back at the data and say, OK I need to work on my offhand or rapid fire prone.

Just remember to have fun. I'm not saying don't take the shooting seriously, but remember why you got into it in the first place.