Overpriced Milsurp?

[kilimanjaro]

We can all remember cheap surplus guns. Remember the $50 K98 Mauser, the $30 Jungle Carbine?

Those days are gone, and will never return. Either pony up the money for a decent milsurp or forget about them. No use caviling about it, it's not helpful.

[44caliberkid]

About 20 years ago I got the milsurp bug and bought all the European and Soviet bolt actions, then in the last ten years started collecting the US military weapons, starting with the 1863 Springfield. Regardless of what they were I paid around $75 to $100 a piece for the over seas rifles and now that I see some of the asking prices on them I think it's time to sell. Cabelas prices on Mosins are ridiculous.
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[Slamfire]

When the tide comes in, mil surplus rifles are cheap, and you ought to buy as many as you can. When the tide goes out, only buy what you really, really want.

The cycle of the tides is very unpredictable. I remember thinking myself lucky and finding a K31 at a gunshow for $350.00. Then, within a couple of years, K31's flooded the market and ones with scratched stocks were $80.00. I bought a couple of non scratched ones for more than $80, but less than $350, and felt rather unhappy about the timing of the first one.

I wish I have never sold or traded any of my Garands. They are all worth a lot more than I paid for them.

[the possum]

Yesterday I saw an advertisement about a new movie that will be hitting theaters soon. It's called Dunkirk, and is about WWI. I suspect the prices on milsurps from the Great War will increase after that movie comes out, like they often do.

[TruthTellers]

I lost interest in Milsurp rifles when I saw the prices go up to the levels of what newly manufactured guns, which come with better... well everything. I'm not going to spend $200 on a Mosin when I can get a Savage Axis for another Benjamin and that Axis uses traditional scopes, not long relief ones.

I'm not going spend $400 on an SKS when I can get a S&W or Ruger AR for $500.

One place where I do think milsurp is going to be worth getting is the M1 Garand's, carbines, and 1911's that are sitting in Korea and close to being shipped back to the US for sale.

And milsurp handguns are really the best deal for military surplus these days. The Russian Toks, Maks, Nagant revolvers, lots of Hi Powers, Webley's, and others are out there and they can be found for great prices. I've had a Tokarev on my mind for years, but just haven't gotten the itch for one because there's other stuff on the list ahead of it.

But again, the issue with those handguns is that they're made from a different time and the pistols of today are far superior.

[Evan Thomas]

Originally Posted by the possum

Yesterday I saw an advertisement about a new movie that will be hitting theaters soon. It's called Dunkirk, and is about WWI. I suspect the prices on milsurps from the Great War will increase after that movie comes out, like they often do.

"Dunkirk" isn't about WWI. It's about the Battle of Dunkirk, May-June 1940, in which over 338,000 Allied troops were evacuated from France. While I suppose it was technically a defeat for the Allies, in practice it was a victory; had the evacuation not happened, there would, in effect, have been no British Army.

I hope it's a decent movie. There was a fair amount of actual heroism around that evacuation, and it was a pivotal point in the war.

[P5 Guy]

TruthTellers, I wouldn't be holding my breath over returns from South Korea.

[the possum]

Oops. I shoulds known that.

[44 AMP]

While I suppose it was technically a defeat for the Allies, in practice it was a victory; had the evacuation not happened, there would, in effect, have been no British Army.

There was, in effect, no British Army in England for some time after Dunkirk, despite the rescue of the men. It wasn't "technically" a defeat, it was actually a defeat, and not losing all your men (just all of their equipment) after getting your butt kicked is not a victory, in practice, or otherwise.

Of course, Allied propaganda could not present it that way to the public, so we focused on the heroism of the rescue, how the "small ships" saved so many.

The Allies (there were several thousand French who were rescued and taken to England) lost all their heavy arms, tanks, artillery machineguns, and very few of the evacuated troops made England still possessing their individual rifles. The men were saved (the moral victory) everything else was lost (the actual defeat).

I suppose you could say that the "victory" was the fact that the British avoided TOTAL defeat, that a lot of them got away, and didn't go into German POW camps.

The world was very fortunate that the leaders of Nazi Germany were not the military geniuses they thought themselves to be.

I do wonder if there will ever be a movie about what happened when the British lost Singapore...probably not, ..there was no rescue for those men.

If the movie is popular, expect to see a price increase for WWII era small arms, British and German especially. The supply is fixed, and the available supply steadily decreasing. They aren't wartime leftovers any more (and haven't been for some time now), they are historical collectibles.

Expect to pay hundreds of dollars for junk guns, because of the history, not the condition, and pay much more for guns in good condition with that history.

There is an additional factor to consider about milsups. WWII era milsurps are the LAST milsurps there are ever going to be, for the general public. (ok, Korea, too )

Later wars (conflicts, police actions, however you name them) were fought with actual assault rifles that are machine guns under US law, and unless registered with the US govt, PRIOR to May 19 1986 are not legal for US citizens to own, and the govt isn't allowing any "discovered" guns to be registered, either.

SO, you can't own the M16 from Viet Nam, nor the AK-47 that faced them. Not allowed. You can, still, in many places, own a semi automatic look alike.

For now.

(there are a handful of M16s on the civilian registry, legal to own with the Federal license, if you live in a state that allows it, as well. Last time I looked, and its been some time, prices started around $16,000, and there was a couple years wait time for approval. Don't know if that has changed, someone in the full auto forum would probably know more about the current market)

[kraigwy]

I think mainly its supply and demand. The demand for milspec or surplus rifles HAVE skyrocketed since 1996.

The reason is simple: In 1996 Sen Feinstein tried to pull a fast one buy pulling the funding from the DCM (Division of Civilian Marksmanship), actually she got her wish. The DCM program did loose it federal funding. The program was turned over to the CMP, (Civilian Marksmanship Program). The CMP's funding would come from the sales of surplus arms, ammunition and other related items.

The DCM/CMP mission is to train Civilians in the use of military arms, and provide those arms to civilians. The Army was to provide the training and conduct the National Matches, and Small Arms Firing Schools at these matches.

The civilian management expanded the program. Besides the National Matches the CMP started the Eastern and Western Games, the Oklahoma City Games, and other traveling matches.

Added to that they started the Master Instructor Program, training instructors to conduct training and matches at local CMP affiliated clubs.

This of course increased the numbers of shooters in Vintage Military Rifle/Pistol training and matches. You increase the number of shooters, you are going to increase the demand for the rifles/pistols needed by these shooters. As the supplies dwindle, the prices have to go up. The CMP programs are expanding every year, so you're going to see the demand expand, as well as the prices.

I believe the CMP has realized the demand has out stripped the supply. They've addressed this problem by adding Modern Military Categories which allows the ARs to be used. AR rifles, parts to build rifles, etc. have flooded the market, which as we've seen the last few months have dropped the prices of ARs. From what Ive seen, the Modern Military Matches are growing faster then the other vintage matches because ARs are cheaper, and more plentiful.

Its not just rifles, but pistols also. M1911 prices have skyrocketed also do to supply and demand. The CMP countered this with the addition of the Military and Police Matches. Looking at their rules this match covers just about any non match pistol out there, pistols just about any of us can afford.

We know there is a huge following of Glocks. Cheap guns compared to the surplus M1911s. The CMP knows this as well. So for the next shooting season, Glock and teamed up with the CMP for a "Glock Only" match.

Though I'm a huge fan of pre-1955 military rifles, I like the idea of expanding the CMPs programs because it DOES increase the numbers of shooters getting involved.

I like the idea of ARs being used, (as well as the CMP Rimfire Programs including 22 Pistol matches aimed at juniors) allows more women and kids to get involved.

The CMPs mission is NOT SALES, its marksmanship training, sales allow for them to fund their shooting/training programs.

Everything has a cost. The cost of training the American Citizen in the use of small arms, just happens to be the increased cost of some of the rifles/pistols used.

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Having said all that. Inflation has a role to play also. In 1980 or 81 I bought my first M1 from the DCM for $112.70 delivered to my door in Anchorage (they didn't grade them then but that rifle would have been a field grade). Last fall I bought an M1 from the CMP for $630 (also a field grade). A little better then 5 times the early 80s price. Inflation yes, but I have to admit, I could afford the $630 rifle better now then I could the $112.70 rifle in the early 80s. Inflation can work both ways.