Length of pull question

[Runs With Fire]

How does one go about determining a proper length of pull? Is it trial and error, or is there some mystic formula?

[mehavey]

Buttstock in crook of elbow, forearm extended up to trigger.
Trigger finger's first (hinge) joint should fall right into trigger naturally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WC1BKJX45Y

Shorter carbine/leveractions often have the trigger (no more than) 1/2-way between 1st/2nd joint: "OK"



Here's the "Scientific" method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOgIPbzKHWI
(But its makes my head hurt)


.

[Art Eatman]

Dittoes with mehavey.

Remember when trying, thickness of clothing makes a difference. If it's "just right" in summer, it might be too long when wearing a thick jacket in winter.

[jmr40]

I've heard the above advice all my life. Not sure I believe it. No 2 people are built alike. They have different arm lengths, some have thick muscular chests, others can be skinny and either could have long or short arms. Not everyone fits that proportional test. And as Art says a LOP that is perfect in August in a T-Shirt will be too long in December in a heavy jacket.

Most people can make a standard 13.5-13.75 LOP work. But some may be better off a little longer or shorter. I believe it is best to just try different stocks and see what works best for you although the above test may be a good place to start. Given the option I prefer to err on the side of having LOP on the short side rather than too long.

[NoSecondBest]

I have to agree with jmr40. When I was shooting competition standing, I ended up with a stock much shorter than I ever anticipated. I got some great advice from some of the best shooters in the world on that subject. Getting the weight in closer to the body offers a lot more support and steadiness when shooting off hand. Holding the gun out too far simply causes more stress on the muscles trying to hold the gun steady. I'd always err on the short side rather than the long side.

[FITASC]

Disagree with the elbow mythology. There ARE actual ways to measure the proper LOP, DAH, DAC, cast, pitch toe, etc. and all are important for a properly-fitting gun.

[Scorch]

That "crook of the elbow" method will give you a rough fit check and get you pretty close, but that is not how you determine length of pull.

[mehavey]

There are two methods in Post #2
Elbow will handle 90%
Second method more exact. But -- as mentioned -- gives most a headache.

FOR THE OP: Choose what works for you.
But as Art E notes, even "perfect" fit is affected by everything under the sun as situations change.
Don't get hung up on "perfect" and/or "exact"
Good enough is what you seek.

[Art Eatman]

Stock fit: Mount the rifle to your shoulder, off-hand hold. Good cheek weld. Comfortable hold. Do it with your eyes closed.

When you open your eyes you should be looking right through the sights/scope without moving your head. Or down the centerline of the barrel if no sights.

The bent-arm test has always been adequate for me. At worst, it gets you in the ballpark. If you care to refine it, that's easy enough.

One thing about cast-off: I learned long ago that if there is at least a slight angle such that with recoil the comb slides away from my jaw, perceived recoil is much less.

[T. O'Heir]

Trial and error is ain't though. It's an actual measurement. Isn't mystical either though.
The stock in your elbow is more of a gauging thing. Measuring is best for installing a recoil pad. Gauging is a 'field expedient' that lets you quickly check the approximate fit of a stock.
The actual measuring method is to shoulder a yard stick like you would a rifle. Where your trigger finger comes to is your LOP.
"...LOP, DAH, DAC, cast, pitch toe, etc..." Mostly applies to shotguns.
Making a factory stock "work" is not the same thing as having the "proper" LOP for you.

[std7mag]

And then when all that is done and it's perfect..
You put your tee shirt on, underarmor or long john top, a sweater, sweatshirt, parka, orange vest. Cause we all dress in layers when it's cold.
And your custom LOP doesn't fit you anymore.

And again i'll disagree with T.O. All that has huge implications, especially if your trying to fit a stock for a female, or are a precision shooter.

There are reasons custom fit stocks cost money.

[Pahoo]

I was recently faced with this question on a SXS and after doing some homework, I finally cut my stock and it worked out great. My biggest question is whether I measure from the front trigger, rear or split the difference. I measured from the front as explained by some shotgun experts. I have doe more than one single trigger but never a double. Look up my previous post and you will find some great advice and informative links …..

10"-62 miter saw with fence, heavy shirt. …..

Be Safe !!!

[jstanfield103]

I have tried the crook in the elbow method. According to that I would be perfect with a 13.5" LOP. Not so, I cut all my stocks to a 12" LOP and they are very comfortable. They are all lever guns so I can operate the lever with my eye still on the sights. So take a close guess and adjust after the first cut.

[FITASC]

Two fingers widths from knuckle to nose .. !!!!
I was recently faced with this question on a SXS and after doing some homework, I finally cut my stock and it worked out great. My biggest question is whether I measure from the front trigger, rear or split the difference. I measured from the front as explained by some shotgun experts. I have doe more than one single trigger but never a double. Look up my previous post and you will find some great advice and informative links …..

10"-62 miter saw with fence, heavy shirt. ….

Just cutting a SxS stock did not consider the cast, pitch DAH, DAC that the original stock had, so you changed a lot.

According to that I would be perfect with a 13.5" LOP. Not so, I cut all my stocks to a 12" LOP and they are very comfortable.

12" might work well for someone who is about 5' tall........... if that really works for you, good.....

[Art Eatman]

Off the cuff, guessing, odds are that stocks are meant to fit 80% or so of the buying public, much like the seats in cars.

[44 AMP]

Stocking a rifle and stocking a shotgun to fit a specific individual are similar, but different in several ways. As far as length of pull matters, it matters most if the gun is going to need to be shouldered (mounted) in a hurry.

A pull that is too long interferes with this. The military learned, long ago that a stock that is "too short" can still be used fairly effectively. So the pull length on ALL our military rifles of the past century+ is on the short side, so that smaller individuals can use them, and larger people can adapt to them.

The crook of the elbow method is a quick and dirty method, which is not precise, but does allow for a general reference to tell if you have a stock which is grossly too short, or too long for you to allow for easy effective use.

[Pahoo]

Just cutting a SXS stock did not consider the cast, pitch DAH, DAC that the original stock had, so you changed a lot.

You are absolutely correct as I have really got information overload on a "Shotgun". If I had a custom high end double, I would send it off to have it professionally done. After reviewing what I found on the internet. I determined that my Savage-311 did not require this kind of investment. My only use is hunting and it worked out great. ……

I'm sure the OP was addressing a rifle and not a shotgun. The only reason I mentioned it is because shotguns are more fitting.. …..


Be Safe !!!

[FITASC]

It all depends.........some folks stand 90 degrees to the line if fire, others stand facing it (like most military folks who learned to shoot an M4)

I am a hunter, not an AR/3-gun/comp guy so I prefer a rifle that actually fits me as opposed to me scrunching up on the stock trying to fit myself to the gun. Actually also no different than folks who struggle with a handgun grip that is too small/large for their hand - can one make do? Sure....but why bother to just make-do?

[jstanfield103]

FITASC, you are correct. I am 5'5" just saying thje crook does not work for everyone.

[gw44]

My LOP is 121/2" every gun I own is that, a youth models fit me perfect !!!!

[FITASC]

On EVERY gun? So every rifle, shotgun all have that LOP? Are you extremely short in stature? How did you determine that?

[Tallest]

FWIW...

I'm a fairly gangly 6'8" so I'm always struggling with an internal LOP debate. Is it worth ordering aftermarket stocks? So far I haven't sprung for one, but that might change after this deer season.

I have learned that I can make 13 3/4" work. But I'd love to get my hands on 14 1/8" or 14 1/4". On occasion I've used a pair of gloves between shoulder and butt, or a wadded up pair of hiking socks. But that's generally just for prone or sitting.

So... so much of it is situational. If I am going to have a rifle that I will shoot the same way every time I shoot it, I may want to really fine tune the LOP. But my "target" shooting consists of practicing for hunting situations. And the shooting positions that present themselves when hunting could fill their own book. So if it's reasonably comfortable and accommodates appropriate eye relief, it's good enough for me.

But being the size and build that I am have conditioned me to make such compromises. So maybe that's just my $.02 and worth no more than that.

[COSteve]

I've found that there is another element of the question not yet discussed. Specifically, it applies if one is talking about stock length on a rifle with a peep sight mounted on the rear of the receiver such as an M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1A, AR-15, AR-10, Mini-14, etc. With those rifles and using the iron sights rather than a scope, it is important to get one's eye close up to the rear peep sight so the LOP isn't as important as the Heel to Aperture (HtA) distance (the distance from the top of the buttplate to the rear peep sight aperture).

I've found that my M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, and M1A, all came stock with a HtA distance of 14" while their LOP was 13". They were easy and natural to get one's eye up close to the rear aperture. My 583 Series wood stocked, Mini-14 Ranch Rifle came with an LOP of 13.5" but a HtA distance of 15.5" which required that I stretch my neck uncomfortably to get my eye in the same position as with the GI rifles it was supposedly patterned after. The solution was to add an aftermarket rear sight which moved the aperture back 1/2" and then cut the stock down 1" to gain the 14" HtA. This resulted in an LOP of 12.5" but the same sighting position as the Mil rifles.

[Art Eatman]

Tallest, why not add spacers and a thicker butt pad?

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by Art Eatman

Tallest, why not add spacers and a thicker butt pad?

Hey Art,

The main rifle in question still has a hollow plastic stock. I would like to swap it out for wood before I go to the expense or effort of spacers. If I'm going to order a wood stock, probably a Boyd's, I can order it longer with a minimal increase in expense.

I would love to put a spacer on the M77 .280 I use, but it's technically a long term loan from someone significantly shorter than I am.