What am I doing wrong?

Grant 14 · March 11, 2018, 07:48 PM

I am starting to load 30-30 with 170 gr gas check. I sized the cases in RCBS dies and my first try at castings came out at .309 to .310, so I am OK with that. Used Hornady 30 cal gas checks and after primer and powder the bullets would not even begin to fit into the neck. I measured the bullets and the gas check installed came out to .321, which seemed very wrong to me so I measured a gas check right out of the box and still got .319. I measured the case mouth and got .304. That also seemed wrong to me so I measured the expander plug and it was .308. I am assuming the .304 to .308 difference is spring back in the brass, but that is just a guess. Why in the world would 30 cal gas checks be so big. I bought them from Midway and there is a batch number on the box #7070. Any help will be appreciated. Grant.

Jim Watson · March 11, 2018, 08:04 PM

How were you "installing" the gas checks? The Hornady is "crimp on" design meant to be crimped to the heel of the bullet by the lubrisizer.

xandi · March 11, 2018, 08:16 PM

You could try try flaring the case a little bit before seating that might help if Not already
Try some jacketed pills if your a new to reloading they’re a bit easier

Grant 14 · March 11, 2018, 09:38 PM

OK, crimp makes sense. I lubed them with the liquid that you roll them in and then let them dry overnight. I didnt see any need to size them when they all came out at what I think is a good diameter. I will look into a sizing/crimping/lubing, set up. Any suggestions on equipment? Thanks, Grant.

reddog81 · March 11, 2018, 10:35 PM

Are you planning on shooting unsized Alox lubed cast bullets with a gas checked just pressed onto the base of the bullet out of a .30-30?

Your bullet and gas check should measure around .309. Ideally your case mouth should measure .002 under the bullet size for good neck tension. The same expander button used for jacketed bullets probably won't be the ideal size for cast bullets. NOE sells expanders that will work well for cast bullets.

Jim Watson · March 12, 2018, 01:25 AM

The Lee sizer might do the job of crimping the gas check.

Grant 14 · March 12, 2018, 09:59 AM

I checked on a lee sizer and will order one today. I had read a little on them but didnt get to the part about crimping gas checks. Reddog, what company is NOE? I think a seperate plug for cast will make life easier. Thanks for the advice. Grant.

RC20 · March 12, 2018, 10:16 AM

Yes the gas check on the bullet is wrong, are the bullets the right size?

Measure those as well.

.321 is way to larger to send down a 308 barrel. Lead bullets a bit large but no where near that.

Per below, that is not the way to deal with a too large a fit.

Quote:

You could try try flaring the case a little bit before seating that might help if Not already
Try some jacketed pills if your a new to reloading they’re a bit easier

F. Guffey · March 12, 2018, 10:27 AM

If I am using lead bullets I am using a neck expander. If the inside neck diameter is .304" there is something wrong with your expander ball and no there is nothing that has that much snap back, jump back or spring back.

F. Guffey

**Unclenick** · March 12, 2018, 10:44 AM

Grant,

Two things are probably fooling you a little. First, as already explained, Hornady gas check are crimp-ons. When you get your Lee sizer, you may find it is a little rough inside and you need to use some crocus cloth to clean it up a little. I chuck them in my lathe and use a Dremel tool with a felt bob and some blue Dico stainless steel buffing compound to polish the surfaces. The die is not stainless, but that compound (Ace Hardware, Amazon) works especially well on hardened steel surfaces of all kinds.

You can buy a die for making straight-sided gas checks on your loading press. I think the checks sold by Sage may also be straight. I've never bought any, but you can ask.

N.O.E. is a mold maker that sells a lot of other things as well.

When you measure the inside of your resized case, I expect you used the inside jaws on a caliper. Because they have flats and an offset, I've never seen those give an accurate measurement of small holes. Results that are 0.002" too small are common when trying to do that. A far more accurate approach is to measure the case neck on the outside, measure your bullet, seat the bullet and measure the outside of the neck again. Subtract the difference in the two outside neck measurements from the bullet measurement, and that's the actual resized number. Usually, it is just 0.001-0.002" below the actual expander diameter. Springback is only about that much.

This thread really belongs in the Bullet Casting forum. I will move it for you.

Oh, and a point of philosophy: Whenever I have to ask what I am doing wrong, I just ask my wife. She has no end of information on that subject.

gwpercle · March 13, 2018, 04:09 PM

To load jacketed bullets a two die set is used. To reload cast bullets a third die is required...it flares the case neck open wider to accept the larger softer cast bullet.
Typically a Lyman M-Die is used, it makes a nice stepped flare that makes bullet insertion and seating very easy. Lee makes a Universal Case Flaring Die, it will only flare the neck it doesn't put a step . Noe makes an insert for the Lee die that does put in a stepped flare and is a very good and inexpensive addition.
The third flaring die will make cast bullet seating easy .
Gary

Grant 14 · March 14, 2018, 04:39 PM

I ordered a LEE luber /sizer so I will experiment when it arrives. I was looking thru some of my Dads old stuff and I may have a 30 cal neck expander. I didnt have a mic available. I will check it tomorrow. I am slowly getting up to speed. Thanks to all. Grant.

March 11, 2018, 07:48 PM	#1
Grant 14 Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2018 Posts: 167	What am I doing wrong? I am starting to load 30-30 with 170 gr gas check. I sized the cases in RCBS dies and my first try at castings came out at .309 to .310, so I am OK with that. Used Hornady 30 cal gas checks and after primer and powder the bullets would not even begin to fit into the neck. I measured the bullets and the gas check installed came out to .321, which seemed very wrong to me so I measured a gas check right out of the box and still got .319. I measured the case mouth and got .304. That also seemed wrong to me so I measured the expander plug and it was .308. I am assuming the .304 to .308 difference is spring back in the brass, but that is just a guess. Why in the world would 30 cal gas checks be so big. I bought them from Midway and there is a batch number on the box #7070. Any help will be appreciated. Grant.

March 12, 2018, 10:44 AM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Grant, Two things are probably fooling you a little. First, as already explained, Hornady gas check are crimp-ons. When you get your Lee sizer, you may find it is a little rough inside and you need to use some crocus cloth to clean it up a little. I chuck them in my lathe and use a Dremel tool with a felt bob and some blue Dico stainless steel buffing compound to polish the surfaces. The die is not stainless, but that compound (Ace Hardware, Amazon) works especially well on hardened steel surfaces of all kinds. You can buy a die for making straight-sided gas checks on your loading press. I think the checks sold by Sage may also be straight. I've never bought any, but you can ask. N.O.E. is a mold maker that sells a lot of other things as well. When you measure the inside of your resized case, I expect you used the inside jaws on a caliper. Because they have flats and an offset, I've never seen those give an accurate measurement of small holes. Results that are 0.002" too small are common when trying to do that. A far more accurate approach is to measure the case neck on the outside, measure your bullet, seat the bullet and measure the outside of the neck again. Subtract the difference in the two outside neck measurements from the bullet measurement, and that's the actual resized number. Usually, it is just 0.001-0.002" below the actual expander diameter. Springback is only about that much. This thread really belongs in the Bullet Casting forum. I will move it for you. Oh, and a point of philosophy: Whenever I have to ask what I am doing wrong, I just ask my wife. She has no end of information on that subject. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 11, 2018, 08:04 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	How were you "installing" the gas checks? The Hornady is "crimp on" design meant to be crimped to the heel of the bullet by the lubrisizer.

March 11, 2018, 08:16 PM	#3
xandi Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2015 Location: ga Posts: 321	You could try try flaring the case a little bit before seating that might help if Not already Try some jacketed pills if your a new to reloading they’re a bit easier

March 11, 2018, 09:38 PM	#4
Grant 14 Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2018 Posts: 167	OK, crimp makes sense. I lubed them with the liquid that you roll them in and then let them dry overnight. I didnt see any need to size them when they all came out at what I think is a good diameter. I will look into a sizing/crimping/lubing, set up. Any suggestions on equipment? Thanks, Grant.

March 11, 2018, 10:35 PM	#5
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,634	Are you planning on shooting unsized Alox lubed cast bullets with a gas checked just pressed onto the base of the bullet out of a .30-30? Your bullet and gas check should measure around .309. Ideally your case mouth should measure .002 under the bullet size for good neck tension. The same expander button used for jacketed bullets probably won't be the ideal size for cast bullets. NOE sells expanders that will work well for cast bullets.

March 12, 2018, 01:25 AM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	The Lee sizer might do the job of crimping the gas check.

March 12, 2018, 09:59 AM	#7
Grant 14 Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2018 Posts: 167	I checked on a lee sizer and will order one today. I had read a little on them but didnt get to the part about crimping gas checks. Reddog, what company is NOE? I think a seperate plug for cast will make life easier. Thanks for the advice. Grant.

March 12, 2018, 10:27 AM	#9
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	If I am using lead bullets I am using a neck expander. If the inside neck diameter is .304" there is something wrong with your expander ball and no there is nothing that has that much snap back, jump back or spring back. F. Guffey

March 13, 2018, 04:09 PM	#11
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	To load jacketed bullets a two die set is used. To reload cast bullets a third die is required...it flares the case neck open wider to accept the larger softer cast bullet. Typically a Lyman M-Die is used, it makes a nice stepped flare that makes bullet insertion and seating very easy. Lee makes a Universal Case Flaring Die, it will only flare the neck it doesn't put a step . Noe makes an insert for the Lee die that does put in a stepped flare and is a very good and inexpensive addition. The third flaring die will make cast bullet seating easy . Gary

March 14, 2018, 04:39 PM	#12
Grant 14 Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2018 Posts: 167	I ordered a LEE luber /sizer so I will experiment when it arrives. I was looking thru some of my Dads old stuff and I may have a 30 cal neck expander. I didnt have a mic available. I will check it tomorrow. I am slowly getting up to speed. Thanks to all. Grant.