Short Stock & Trijicon Reflex II

Gary H · July 31, 2000, 02:03 PM

I have an 870 HD w/18" barrel and wish to upgrade it without excess. Oh damn.. Ok..a bit of excess.

I have ordered a six shell sidesaddle, TacStar 2000 light ( have one on my Carbon 15 and really like it ) and plan on sending it, with $35, to Johnny Stone (any experience with Johnny?) for forcing cone extension and polish. My patterns are more than awful, about 36" at 30 yds (only distance available at my range for patterning).

Larger safety is cheap and a non-brainer. Many two round extensions exist. I think that I will go with Scattergun's. Will need a sling for three gun..any suggestions?

I'm a bit confused as to other upgrades. I'm 6'3" and have a long reach. Is there a (HD) reason to change the butt stock to a shorter stock, or should I try to get a stock with a spring loaded shell holder. Don't know who makes it, but I know it is made. Is there an advantage to adding the Decelerator pad? Is cutting down the front stock the way to go, or better to spend the $20 on a shorter front stock. Porting will be on hold until other mods are in place. If I'm happy, then no porting.

Sights.. I know that all of you are big ghost ring fans, but the Reflex II has all the advantages of ghost rings, plus it is easier to pick-up the sight picture. Anyone try one on their shotgun? The problem would be to set-up a weaver mount and still maintain the sidesaddle. Is there a top fitting mount that can be mounted with tap and screw?

Thanks,
Gary

Gary H · July 31, 2000, 02:05 PM

Just read my own post and forgot these: ???

nedfig · July 31, 2000, 02:42 PM

I haven't had any experience with Johnny Stone, but $35 is a good price. I too will be sending my barrel for the same work next week. Most here will probably tell you to send the barrel to Hans Vang (Vang Comp System)for the forcing cone and back bore. I have heard many good things of his work, but you have to have to send at least one arm and one leg with the barrel.

Have seen posts here that if you take one round out of the stock and fire the weapon, the recoil will kick the lone round out.

Also, GR sights can usually be had for a fraction of the cost of the Reflex (unless you already have one).

No comments on the rest.

jthuang · July 31, 2000, 02:45 PM

1. I'd say go with the generic nylon sling. Tactical slings are all the rage these days, but if you ask me they're a weapon retention problem just waiting to happen. If a goblin grabs your long arm, you're tied to your shotgun by the tactical sling, so he can drag you around. The plain nylon sling doesn't transition as easily to the handgun, but eliminates the retention problem. If you must have a tactical sling, look at Tactical Tailor's offerings -- they have a quick-release buckle which releases the gun in the case of a gun grab.

2. Only HD reason I can see to change to a shorter stock is if the longer stock doesn't fit you well or if you wear body armor. The shell-holder stock you refer to is the Speedfeed series. I personally don't like them as they throw the balance of the gun off-kilter and are generally slower in loading your shotgun (as compared to loading from a belt pouch or sidesaddle).

3. I got to look through a Reflex II this weekend at a gunshow. Nice sight, but I've never tried one on a scattergun.

Justin

------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

Gary H · July 31, 2000, 03:09 PM

I won't be using the sling at home.

Stock with shell is out. I've heard the same before.

I've read that short stocks are good for HD. Reasoning being that you can't legally shorten the barrel, so shorten the stock to get a shorter total length.

I hadn't considered backboring the barrel. Perhaps I should. Honestly, the barrel work is the only work that I consider essential.

Reflex is around $300 with mount and there is still the problem of mounting it to the shotgun and retaining the sidesaddle.

Eric of IN · July 31, 2000, 08:40 PM

I think I understand what lengthening the forcing cone is and why. (It's to lessen the transition of the shot from the chamber diameter to the choke diameter, right?) But I haven't been able to figure out what back boring is and what it would help. I hat to confess my ignorance, but I hate being ignorant even more.
Eric

------------------
Teach a kid to shoot.
It annoys the antis.

Gary H · July 31, 2000, 08:59 PM

Well, this was a big spending day. I ordered a Keltec P-32, MMC adjustable tritium sights for 2 P7's and one glock. For my 870 I ordered MMC tritium ghost rings with banded/notched tritium front, Scattergun magazine extension, sidesaddle and sent my barrel off to Vang with a request for a large safety. I decided not to save money and just do it. Anyone want to buy a Sig 2340, or Kahr K9 nickle? (I need the money

I decided against the Reflex II after looking at a red-dot sight that I already had. I figured that the slightly visible light viewable from the barrel might be just enough of an unconscious aiming cue for the BG that I might end up on the wrong end of an encounter.

I thought that the backbore acted as a slight choke.

Gary H · July 31, 2000, 08:59 PM

Well, this was a big spending day. I ordered a Keltec P-32, MMC adjustable tritium sights for 2 P7's and one glock. For my 870 I ordered MMC tritium ghost rings with banded/notched tritium front, Scattergun magazine extension, sidesaddle and sent my barrel off to Vang with a request for a large safety. I decided not to save money and just do it. Anyone want to buy a Sig 2340, or Kahr K9 nickle? (I need the money

I decided against the Reflex II after looking at a red-dot sight that I already had. I figured that the slightly visible light viewable from the barrel might be just enough of an unconscious aiming cue for the BG that I might end up on the wrong end of an encounter.

I thought that the backbore acted as a slight choke.

Thanks for all of your responses!

Robe · July 31, 2000, 10:31 PM

Gary H- I think you made the right decisions.
Vang remade my 870 about a month ago. The changes are absolutely amazing. After you shoot five rounds thru the modified barrel, you will know it was worth it. The ghost ring sights work great. There are several aftermarket scope mounts that you could use to mount a reflex or whatever, but by having the GR sights, you are fine. Wise idea to avoid the stock with the shell holder feature. The short stock just gives you a lesser overall length as you said and makes it a little easier to swing around and handle in close spaces. Not a must-have feature, but nice. Since Vang has your barrel, I would suggest you also let him port it for you too. It is worth it to do it. You're going to about triple your inital purchase price for the 870 when you are finnished, but you will love the finnished product and enjoy it for a long time with every pull of the trigger.

[This message has been edited by Robe (edited July 31, 2000).]

Gary H · July 31, 2000, 10:41 PM

Yes, I ordered the porting. Also picked up another TacStar WLS 2000. Works great for about one-third the price of the momentary switch Surefire.

I figure that I can have a local smith install the ghost rings and shorten the pump. If I want to shorten the stock, he can cut it and add a Decelerator pad.

I'll have to research the removal of the magazine shell limiting tabs. Anyone have any tips, or is this best left to the smith?

Just figured my outgoing cash and it looks like I'm also going to have to sell my Glock 33 with LaserMax and Scherer grips. I've got a self limiting rule about gun purchases. It means that I progressively have fewer guns, but more of what I want.

Robe · July 31, 2000, 11:10 PM

Removing dimples in the 870 mag tube- I drilled mine out with a cordless drill. I started with a very small drill bit in the center of the dimple and kept repeating the process with progressively larger bits till they were gone. Then I got a brake cylinder hone from an auto parts store and polished the inside of the mag tube where the holes are.Worked fine for me. I think there is actually some sort of tool to use that flattens out these spots, but I would not want to buy one for just one job. Also. If Vang refinnishes your barel, the finish is a matte black that looks great and seems to be pretty tough.

Gary H · August 1, 2000, 12:05 AM

Thanks for the dimple tips.
Don't know about the refinished barrel. It seems that this would not be part of the process, but we will see.

Dave McC · August 1, 2000, 06:28 AM

A coupla things....

First, while the bells, whistles,etc are nice, if you're spending more on mods and addons than ammo and range time, your priorities need a quick review. A stock 870 is a HD tool of great potential,with little done to it besides removing those $%^&*() PC dimples.

Second, after adding the extension, SS, and so on, weight will be enough more that porting may not be needed, tho people vary greatly on how much recoil they can tolerate.

Third, I know little about optics on HD guns, but I do know from long and effective use, Peep sights(Ghost rings w/o a press agent) work.The KISS principle...

Fourth, 36" at 30 yards is terrible, AND typical.30 yards is simply outside the effective range for most buck/shotgun/choke combinations.Judicious load selection MAY improve that somewhat, but miracles don't hapen everyday.

Fifth, while I preach to the multitudes about ammo and range time being more crucial than addons,the forcing cone work has no downside. Better patterns, less recoil.

Gary H · August 1, 2000, 10:28 AM

Dave:

I believe that porting is least important.

Patterning was done at that distance because it is the only distance allowed at my local range.

I doubt that ghost rings will ever make a difference in any legal daylight HD in California. The stock sights were just fine for that task. The tactical light and tritium were for PM duty. The fact that the night sights were ghost rings has more to do with possible Three Gun.

Dave McC · August 1, 2000, 07:05 PM

Understood about the distance, Gary, but it wasn't the best for testing.

My bird 870 has a rather short list of mods and addons,forcing cone, sling swivels, and a bit of shimming to put most of the pattern a skosh high. Bet I could pull out the mag plug, and shoot my old qualification course with it better than 90%.And while I'm good, I could name a dozen better w/o taxing my aging memory.

My HD 870 served as a test bed for a lot of gizmos starting about 81 or so. It still has most of the good stuff on it.

You're right about the stock sights. Two of my 870s have the peep sight setup because I might use slugs, and I DO hunt with one of them. I used to hunt with the HD 870.

As for tritium, if you like them, no problem here. I use a little paint to touch up the bead,and there's a hood on that front sight, which serves as a coarse, fast close range sight at low light levels. Whatever works for you...

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July 31, 2000, 02:03 PM	#1
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	I have an 870 HD w/18" barrel and wish to upgrade it without excess. Oh damn.. Ok..a bit of excess. I have ordered a six shell sidesaddle, TacStar 2000 light ( have one on my Carbon 15 and really like it ) and plan on sending it, with $35, to Johnny Stone (any experience with Johnny?) for forcing cone extension and polish. My patterns are more than awful, about 36" at 30 yds (only distance available at my range for patterning). Larger safety is cheap and a non-brainer. Many two round extensions exist. I think that I will go with Scattergun's. Will need a sling for three gun..any suggestions? I'm a bit confused as to other upgrades. I'm 6'3" and have a long reach. Is there a (HD) reason to change the butt stock to a shorter stock, or should I try to get a stock with a spring loaded shell holder. Don't know who makes it, but I know it is made. Is there an advantage to adding the Decelerator pad? Is cutting down the front stock the way to go, or better to spend the $20 on a shorter front stock. Porting will be on hold until other mods are in place. If I'm happy, then no porting. Sights.. I know that all of you are big ghost ring fans, but the Reflex II has all the advantages of ghost rings, plus it is easier to pick-up the sight picture. Anyone try one on their shotgun? The problem would be to set-up a weaver mount and still maintain the sidesaddle. Is there a top fitting mount that can be mounted with tap and screw? Thanks, Gary

July 31, 2000, 02:05 PM	#2
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Just read my own post and forgot these: ???

July 31, 2000, 02:42 PM	#3
nedfig Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2000 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 263	I haven't had any experience with Johnny Stone, but $35 is a good price. I too will be sending my barrel for the same work next week. Most here will probably tell you to send the barrel to Hans Vang (Vang Comp System)for the forcing cone and back bore. I have heard many good things of his work, but you have to have to send at least one arm and one leg with the barrel. Have seen posts here that if you take one round out of the stock and fire the weapon, the recoil will kick the lone round out. Also, GR sights can usually be had for a fraction of the cost of the Reflex (unless you already have one). No comments on the rest.

July 31, 2000, 02:45 PM	#4
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	1. I'd say go with the generic nylon sling. Tactical slings are all the rage these days, but if you ask me they're a weapon retention problem just waiting to happen. If a goblin grabs your long arm, you're tied to your shotgun by the tactical sling, so he can drag you around. The plain nylon sling doesn't transition as easily to the handgun, but eliminates the retention problem. If you must have a tactical sling, look at Tactical Tailor's offerings -- they have a quick-release buckle which releases the gun in the case of a gun grab. 2. Only HD reason I can see to change to a shorter stock is if the longer stock doesn't fit you well or if you wear body armor. The shell-holder stock you refer to is the Speedfeed series. I personally don't like them as they throw the balance of the gun off-kilter and are generally slower in loading your shotgun (as compared to loading from a belt pouch or sidesaddle). 3. I got to look through a Reflex II this weekend at a gunshow. Nice sight, but I've never tried one on a scattergun. Justin ------------------ Justin T. Huang, Esq. late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

July 31, 2000, 03:09 PM	#5
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	I won't be using the sling at home. Stock with shell is out. I've heard the same before. I've read that short stocks are good for HD. Reasoning being that you can't legally shorten the barrel, so shorten the stock to get a shorter total length. I hadn't considered backboring the barrel. Perhaps I should. Honestly, the barrel work is the only work that I consider essential. Reflex is around $300 with mount and there is still the problem of mounting it to the shotgun and retaining the sidesaddle.

July 31, 2000, 08:40 PM	#6
Eric of IN Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2000 Posts: 425	I think I understand what lengthening the forcing cone is and why. (It's to lessen the transition of the shot from the chamber diameter to the choke diameter, right?) But I haven't been able to figure out what back boring is and what it would help. I hat to confess my ignorance, but I hate being ignorant even more. Eric ------------------ Teach a kid to shoot. It annoys the antis.

July 31, 2000, 08:59 PM	#7
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Well, this was a big spending day. I ordered a Keltec P-32, MMC adjustable tritium sights for 2 P7's and one glock. For my 870 I ordered MMC tritium ghost rings with banded/notched tritium front, Scattergun magazine extension, sidesaddle and sent my barrel off to Vang with a request for a large safety. I decided not to save money and just do it. Anyone want to buy a Sig 2340, or Kahr K9 nickle? (I need the money I decided against the Reflex II after looking at a red-dot sight that I already had. I figured that the slightly visible light viewable from the barrel might be just enough of an unconscious aiming cue for the BG that I might end up on the wrong end of an encounter. I thought that the backbore acted as a slight choke.

July 31, 2000, 10:31 PM	#9
Robe Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Posts: 70	Gary H- I think you made the right decisions. Vang remade my 870 about a month ago. The changes are absolutely amazing. After you shoot five rounds thru the modified barrel, you will know it was worth it. The ghost ring sights work great. There are several aftermarket scope mounts that you could use to mount a reflex or whatever, but by having the GR sights, you are fine. Wise idea to avoid the stock with the shell holder feature. The short stock just gives you a lesser overall length as you said and makes it a little easier to swing around and handle in close spaces. Not a must-have feature, but nice. Since Vang has your barrel, I would suggest you also let him port it for you too. It is worth it to do it. You're going to about triple your inital purchase price for the 870 when you are finnished, but you will love the finnished product and enjoy it for a long time with every pull of the trigger. [This message has been edited by Robe (edited July 31, 2000).]

July 31, 2000, 10:41 PM	#10
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Yes, I ordered the porting. Also picked up another TacStar WLS 2000. Works great for about one-third the price of the momentary switch Surefire. I figure that I can have a local smith install the ghost rings and shorten the pump. If I want to shorten the stock, he can cut it and add a Decelerator pad. I'll have to research the removal of the magazine shell limiting tabs. Anyone have any tips, or is this best left to the smith? Just figured my outgoing cash and it looks like I'm also going to have to sell my Glock 33 with LaserMax and Scherer grips. I've got a self limiting rule about gun purchases. It means that I progressively have fewer guns, but more of what I want.

July 31, 2000, 11:10 PM	#11
Robe Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Posts: 70	Removing dimples in the 870 mag tube- I drilled mine out with a cordless drill. I started with a very small drill bit in the center of the dimple and kept repeating the process with progressively larger bits till they were gone. Then I got a brake cylinder hone from an auto parts store and polished the inside of the mag tube where the holes are.Worked fine for me. I think there is actually some sort of tool to use that flattens out these spots, but I would not want to buy one for just one job. Also. If Vang refinnishes your barel, the finish is a matte black that looks great and seems to be pretty tough.

August 1, 2000, 12:05 AM	#12
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Thanks for the dimple tips. Don't know about the refinished barrel. It seems that this would not be part of the process, but we will see.

August 1, 2000, 06:28 AM	#13
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	A coupla things.... First, while the bells, whistles,etc are nice, if you're spending more on mods and addons than ammo and range time, your priorities need a quick review. A stock 870 is a HD tool of great potential,with little done to it besides removing those $%^&*() PC dimples. Second, after adding the extension, SS, and so on, weight will be enough more that porting may not be needed, tho people vary greatly on how much recoil they can tolerate. Third, I know little about optics on HD guns, but I do know from long and effective use, Peep sights(Ghost rings w/o a press agent) work.The KISS principle... Fourth, 36" at 30 yards is terrible, AND typical.30 yards is simply outside the effective range for most buck/shotgun/choke combinations.Judicious load selection MAY improve that somewhat, but miracles don't hapen everyday. Fifth, while I preach to the multitudes about ammo and range time being more crucial than addons,the forcing cone work has no downside. Better patterns, less recoil.

August 1, 2000, 10:28 AM	#14
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Dave: I believe that porting is least important. Patterning was done at that distance because it is the only distance allowed at my local range. I doubt that ghost rings will ever make a difference in any legal daylight HD in California. The stock sights were just fine for that task. The tactical light and tritium were for PM duty. The fact that the night sights were ghost rings has more to do with possible Three Gun.

August 1, 2000, 07:05 PM	#15
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Understood about the distance, Gary, but it wasn't the best for testing. My bird 870 has a rather short list of mods and addons,forcing cone, sling swivels, and a bit of shimming to put most of the pattern a skosh high. Bet I could pull out the mag plug, and shoot my old qualification course with it better than 90%.And while I'm good, I could name a dozen better w/o taxing my aging memory. My HD 870 served as a test bed for a lot of gizmos starting about 81 or so. It still has most of the good stuff on it. You're right about the stock sights. Two of my 870s have the peep sight setup because I might use slugs, and I DO hunt with one of them. I used to hunt with the HD 870. As for tritium, if you like them, no problem here. I use a little paint to touch up the bead,and there's a hood on that front sight, which serves as a coarse, fast close range sight at low light levels. Whatever works for you...