Question about shortening the OAL on a 9mm load

[DaveInPA]

I'm loading a 125gr flat point lead bullet in 9mm with W231 powder. Hodgdon lists the following load data:

Bullet OAL Start Vel Pressure Max Vel Pressure
125 GR. LCN Winchester 231 .356" 1.125" 3.9 1009 25,700 CUP 4.4 1086 31,200 CUP

I had loaded a bunch of these up at various charges and settled on 4.2gr at an OAL of 1.125". This gave me an average velocity of 1050fps over a buddy's chronograph with no pressure signs. I then proceeded to load about 800 of this load.

However, upon field stripping my pistol (Glock 17L with Lone Wolf barrel) I discovered that almost none of these rounds easily chambered and fell out under their own weight. A couple failed BADLY and would definitely lock the gun up if I were to try and chamber them. I assumed it was a brass dimension issue but it turns out the OAL is too long and the bullet is hitting the rifling.

I played around with a couple of dummy rounds using this same bullet and it turns out the OAL I need to be at to pass the chamber check is 1.069".

So, here's the question. Do you guys think my load of 4.2gr will still be safe as far as pressures go after seating the bullet .056" deeper into the case? I am going to load up 10 each of 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, and 4.2gr and test them at the range this week to be safe, but I just thought I'd see what you guys thought anyway. I REALLY hope it's still a safe load at the deeper seating depth seeing as I have 800 loaded and pulling that many bullets would be absolutely agonizing.

[spacecoast]

It seems odd that the round won't chamber, I measured some Federal RN ammo I have and it's 2.92 cm or almost 1.15" OAL, and I have been reloading as you have to about 1.13" (plated round nose) without any problems in my Ruger P95. Maybe it's the shape of the bullet that's causing the issues.

Any chance you can attach a picture of one of your rounds?

[SL1]

When I use QuickLOAD to calculate 4.2 grains of WW-231 behind a LEE 124 grain lead TC bullet in a 9mm case with COL = 1.125", I get 28,856 psi and 1041 fps from a 4" barrel. So, it matches the Hornady data pretty well.

BUT, when I reduce the COL to 1.069", the PRESSURE JUMPS TO 39,773 psi while the velocity goes to 1100 fps. That is probably not enough to blow-up your gun, but it is well over the SAAMI standard of 35,000 psi for the standard round and even over the 38,500 psi "+P" limit.

That pressure may or may not give you "pressure signs" but it will probably be pretty hard on your gun and brass. If you have some old cases that have been fired many times in those 800 you loaded, some MIGHTfail.

ANOTHER concern is that I have read that Glock says NOT to shoot lead bullets in their guns. (I don't have any Glocks, so this is NOT first-hand info from me.) From what I have read, the factory barrels tend to lead, and that builds-up pressure. I see that you are using an after-market barrel, bu that doesn't mean that you are NOT getting leading. I am wondering if your cartridges are not chambering easily because there is lead building in your barrel and that is preventing the bullets from sliding smoothly into the chamber throat. If that is that case, then it would INCREASE THE PRESSURE ABOVE WHAT WAS CALCULATED ABOVE.

So, I STRONGLY suggest that you carefully check your barrel for lead build-up before you try working-up any more loads.

SL1

[jepp2]

He said he was using a Lone Wolf barrel, so the lead isn't an issue.

I load for Glocks with Lone Wolf barrels, and have no problems with longer OAL than you are having a problem with.

Are you confident a couple of dummy rounds ruled out the brass case, and verified the OAL is the problem? I would be much more suspect of a sizing issue than the OAL, until proven otherwise. Maybe you are dead certain, but as you can see, the deeper seating of the bullet is a problem.

[SL1]

As I wrote, I see that he is using a non-Glock barrel, but that does NOT insure that his problem isn't from leading. We don't know what bullets he is using, so we don't know if they are prone to leading with this charge of this powder in his barrel. And, leading in the throat could definitely make it SEEM like the bullet is seated out too far and is hitting the rifling.

SO, I repeat that Dave should CHECK for leading. Once that is ruled-out, we can consider other explanations for what he is experiencing.

SL1

[Shoney]

The problem as described seems to come up often. Many of those having that problem have corrected it by seating and crimping in different operations.

What could be happening is:
As the bullet is going down the crimping portion of the die is narrowing the bell on the case. If the bullet is still moving down, when the case is narrowed to a crimp, the case can bite into the lead, either shaving it so the lead becomes the same diameter as the case, or the lead can be pushed over the case.

The cartridge with the lead the same as the case will not go into battery, but usually will fall out easily. The case with lead over the case will jam tigtly.

Either adjustment of the die or doing the seat and crimp in different opperations will correct this problem.

[jepp2]

SL1, I couldn't agree more. What I meant to say, was "shooting" lead in a Lone Wolf barrel isn't a problem. But any build up of lead in the chamber, is a problem. Good clarification!

[PCJim]

Dave, you stated you worked these rounds up and that you chronographed them. Was that done with this same G17L, or am I reading your post incorrectly?

[DaveInPA]

Thanks for the replies guys.

1. The barrel is spotless, there's no lead in the chamber.

2. Yes I shot these out of the same G17L. I got lucky at the range and didn't shoot any of the ones that won't fit at all. The majority of the rounds fit the chamber, but not loosely (they won't fall out of the barrel removed from the pistol)

3. I am seating and crimping in separate operations. Using a Lee factory crimp die.

I am just about positive the OAL is the issue and not the dimensions of the brass. If I load a dummy round to 1.125", it fits the chamber tightly. If i seat that same round to 1.069" it slips in and falls out no problem. I don't see how that could be a brass dimension issue?

I think what I'm going to do is pull out all of the rounds that don't fit at all and pull those. I'll go ahead and shoot the rest. I will then work up a new load for the shorter OAL.

Thanks Guys.

[SL1]

1. Have you checked the DIAMETERS of your bullets? If the group pf bullets you purchased were cast or sized in 2 or more different tools, then then it is possible that you have two or more different diameters, with the larger ones "sticking" in the chamber.

2. QuickLOAD calculations suggest that the charge for your 1.069" COL would need to be dropped to 3.7 grains of to get the same pressure as the 4.2 grain charge with the 1.125" COL. The max load of 4.4 grains would need to be dropped to 3.85 grains to be back to the same pressure as the data max load. (The data max load gives a pressure result of 44,750 psi when you reduce the COL to 1.069!) Of course, these are just calculations, and they were done with a Lee bullet that may not exactly match the bullet you are using. So, please don't take this as load data, but rather as somewhat uncertain information that may have some benefit in helping you decide what to do.

SL1

[dwhite]

I was wondering if SL1 isn't right?

Are the bullets oversize or are they actually to size for 38 Special (0.358 inch)? Just might make tight chambering in a Lone Wolf barrel which I've read tend to run tight anyway.

You may be able to squeeze them puppies down to size with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Just an idea. Beats pulling 800 rounds.

All the Best,
D. White

[Unclenick]

Not just the bullets, but it it mixed brass? Some cases are rather thicker at the neck than others. Still, I would expect the Lee die's carbide ring to have addressed that?

I usually seat lead pistol bullets to headspace on the rifling intentionally because it produces best accuracy, but it should not affect width or tightness of fit in the chamber unless the leading edge of the bullet is actually wedging in the throat? Check the bullet diameter consistency as suggested. If that portion of the bullet just beyond the case mouth is wider in some of the bullets, that would explain it, as that portion won't be touched by the FCD ring, but it will jam harder into a throat. In that instance, running the bullets though a 0.001 smaller sizer than they originally saw would fix the problem.

[SL1]

the difference doesn't have to be something like 0.356" vs .358". The nominally 0.356" bullets might range from 0.3555" to 0/3565" and have SOME cause a problem while others don't.

SL1

[DWARREN123]

Since it is a Glock I would have the chamber checked. I have had trouble when my crimp was not tight enough but the OAL has to be long not to fit.
This is on the 40 S&W Glocks.

[Sevens]

I REALLY hope it's still a safe load at the deeper seating depth seeing as I have 800 loaded and pulling that many bullets would be absolutely agonizing.

Trying to get a handle on this.
Did you load eight hundred pieces of a load/charge/COAL that you haven't properly tested for safety, functioning and accuracy?

I can't think of any good excuse why anyone would load eight hundred pieces of anything that hasn't been tested.

[SL1]

Sevens,

From the original post, it sounds like he did load quite a few of these when "working-up" the load, then made 800 of them. It was only after he made and started to test gauge (in his barrel) that he found that nearly all of the 800 batch were too tight.

So, I have wondered about things like:
1. Did Dave also use his barrel to test-gauge the rounds when he was working-up the load, so he KNOWS that there was a change in something?
2. Could he have built-up lead during his earlier testing that is causing problems now? (Already answered in the negative).
3. Could he have used a different batch of bullets?
4. Did he use a different press and or die set-up for the 800 compared to his work-up loads (e.g., a progressive for the 800, but a single stage for the work-ups)?

SL1

[blrrobinson21]

I agree with SL1, Im using 1.14 COL for my Glock 19 and they work great, of course that is with a standard barrel.

[chris in va]

I had a similar problem with my truncated cone bullets. Tried the standard 1.15oal, not even close. 1.08, no...1.06...finally 1.045 was the magic number in my CZ and HiPoint carbine.

Not only do I make a dummy round and drop it in, but I also tap the round in lightly to see if it sticks even a little. If it finally just falls out, I know it's good.

[ljnowell]

Make a dummy round the length you want to use. Send said dummy round and barrel back to lonewolf and have them remachine the chamber. They used to do this for free. At least they did on my two barrels. I had a .45acp barrel that in order to get any lead round to fully chamber the leade had to be lengthened and the chamber opened up in diameter. A SWC had to be seated to below the case mouth to function. Came back great.

[spacecoast]

I had a similar problem with my truncated cone bullets.

If the bullets are the *same* weight and shape (other than the truncation), then it would seem plausible that the OAL should be equal to the "normal" OAL of the RN bullet minus the difference in bullet lengths, *plus* a small amount which compensates for the fact that more of the weight is included in the full-width base of the bullet rather than in the rounded tip.