9mm - .40S&W - .45ACP & Home Defense - Page 2

NJgunowner · October 12, 2011, 03:12 PM

More people have been killed by .22's than 9mm, .40, or .45's

But anyway, pick what you're comfortable with and get a quality Self Defense round for it that functions well in the gun you use it in. 9mm, .40, .45, Indian chief, doesn't really matter. Just go with what you like and you'll be fine.

I LIKE the 10mm the best, but most people are to wimpy for it

.

Seaman · October 12, 2011, 03:50 PM

"9mm - .40S&W - .45ACP & Home Defense...
Which of these should be the least worry with over penetration? "

A 9"x 6" spruce block with a 2 inch spruce backstop.
Shot the following bullets thru it:

45 ACP 230 gr fmj....penetrated 5.25" and stopped
40 S&W 180 gr fmj...penetrated 7" and stopped
9mm para 123 gr fmj...penetrated thru block and got stuck about third-way thru backstop
7.62x25mm 85 gr fmj...thru and thru

Please note that the heavier the bullet, the less penetration. The 85 gr fmj 7.62x25mm was the lightest bullet but penetrated best.

Test was done with affordable/available across the counter fmj ammo.

"...but hardball 45 ACP tends to knock people down...This is a myth."

The 45 ACP 1911 handgun has a long history of tactical close quarter superiority...one example (of many) occurred in the Marianas in July 1944, when Sgt. Thomas Baker, wounded, took the last of the ammo and stayed behind to delay the enemy. He had eight 45 ACP cartridges and a 1911 pistol (7+1).

He was later found dead, gun empty, with 8 dead Japanese soldiers around him.

A 1911 pistol, 8 cartridges, 8 consecutive one-shot stops.

GI harball. A devastating battle tested stopper.

mavracer · October 12, 2011, 05:08 PM

Since we follow rule 4 at all times and know our target and what's behind it even in a gunfight we shouldn't be worried about over penatration.

I have a springfield loaded 1911a1 in the nightstand mos of the time but sleep fine with most anything in there.

Tactical Jackalope · October 12, 2011, 08:35 PM

Seaman, nice test and write up. Wish I had pictures of it. This is making me want to safe my P226 E2 with the TLR1 and mount it on my Glock 21 or XD45. Too many loved ones home.

SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - Remington 870

Tactical Jackalope · October 12, 2011, 09:22 PM

Of course that SIG and Glock 27 ARE my main carry guns. And so is the G21 and 1911...aah

SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - Remington 870

Tactical Jackalope · October 12, 2011, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanysany

you must be a great gun collector!!!

Lol why do you say that?

SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - Remington 870

Seaman · October 13, 2011, 08:47 AM

Ahoy Constantine,

Will search to see if there are any pics extant. Sadly the spruce block is no more as it was consigned to the wood stove. However, I am splitting and cutting firewood, and if I can find the time I can replicate the test, this time with a 3" 1911, last time a 5" 1911 Colt was used.

The 45 ACP cartridge is a bit of a paradox, not a great penetrator, nonetheless a great devastator.

And out of a shorty 3" barrel, the slower velocity means even less penetration. 1911s and AMTs come with short 3" barrels, not sure if Glocks do...?

Seem to recall Custer went into the LBH with a pair of 45 cal 3" barreled Webleys...shell casings were found under his body, but the Webleys were gone.

Decades ago, the Canadian military conducted a test, 45 ACP 1911 vs 9mm Hi-Power. The 45 ACP penetrated a steel helmet out to 30 yards, the 9mm out to 100 yards.

Check your 6.

Tactical Jackalope · October 17, 2011, 09:52 AM

Seaman. Thank you sir

Funny, I have both those guns and love them both greatly! I can't wait to get my 1911 back.

I really need to do my own tests. So hard to in Miami -___- I want a thread with pics and everything. Gotta find that farm I went to once. Called Henry's.

SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - S&W 642 - Remington 870

Mrgunsngear · October 17, 2011, 12:00 PM

As illustrated in the example above, as a general rule of thumb, lighter faster bullets penetrate less than slow and heavy bullets. This contradicts what most people think but it's true. Go to any ammo makers site and look at the terminal ballistics of a 115 grain and 147 grain 9mm of the same bullet. The 147 (larger and slower) will penetrate more. Also, look at the 'box of truth' website which is by no means sceintific but it is a good data point. People always think that their handgun rounds will penetrate more than rifle rounds, but in many cases (Hornady TAP Urban for instance) it's just not so.

810wmb · October 17, 2011, 12:33 PM

i have a 1911 loaded with hollow points in my bedholster.

i choose 45 acp hollow points because i want the people i shoot to explode like a cantaloupe being hit with a 12 gauge slug.

no worries except cleanup!

SocialAnarchist · October 17, 2011, 02:19 PM

Caliber is less relevant than well placed shots.

FairWarning · October 17, 2011, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orionengr

If I were shooting at a stationary paper target, one would be enough.

What too many people overlook is that in a real SD situation, the target will be shooting back at you.

What becomes critical at that point is not how many rounds you have as how effectively you deploy them.

I am perfectly happy with 7-9 rounds of .45 acp, as I believe that regardless of the number of assailants, the fight will be over very quickly.

If I am 1v1, I am pretty confident the confrontation will go my way, because I practice regularly, I can hit what I aim at and I shoot what I believe to be an effective caliber.

If I am 1v2, I believe I stand a decent chance, because I can hit what I shoot at and shoot an effective caliber...but I'm going to have to hope that one of my adversaries is not as good as I am...and I'm going to hope that he's the second one I aim at.

If I am 1v3, I am in big trouble. I will do the best I can, but I am a realist and I understand math and probability.

Having 17 rounds of a less-effective caliber does not increase my odds in the slightest...in fact, it diminishes them, as I will have to put three or more 9mm rounds into each assailant before moving to the next one...while the other BG(s) are pumping rounds into me.

If it takes 3 rounds of high quality 9mm to drop someone, then I guess you don't shoot as well as you claim to.

October 12, 2011, 03:50 PM	#27
Seaman Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Posts: 654	"9mm - .40S&W - .45ACP & Home Defense... Which of these should be the least worry with over penetration? " A 9"x 6" spruce block with a 2 inch spruce backstop. Shot the following bullets thru it: 45 ACP 230 gr fmj....penetrated 5.25" and stopped 40 S&W 180 gr fmj...penetrated 7" and stopped 9mm para 123 gr fmj...penetrated thru block and got stuck about third-way thru backstop 7.62x25mm 85 gr fmj...thru and thru Please note that the heavier the bullet, the less penetration. The 85 gr fmj 7.62x25mm was the lightest bullet but penetrated best. Test was done with affordable/available across the counter fmj ammo. "...but hardball 45 ACP tends to knock people down...This is a myth." The 45 ACP 1911 handgun has a long history of tactical close quarter superiority...one example (of many) occurred in the Marianas in July 1944, when Sgt. Thomas Baker, wounded, took the last of the ammo and stayed behind to delay the enemy. He had eight 45 ACP cartridges and a 1911 pistol (7+1). He was later found dead, gun empty, with 8 dead Japanese soldiers around him. A 1911 pistol, 8 cartridges, 8 consecutive one-shot stops. GI harball. A devastating battle tested stopper. __________________ For 20 years the sea was my home, always recall the sun going down, and my trusty friend, a 1911 pistol, strapped to my side.

October 13, 2011, 08:47 AM	#32
Seaman Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Posts: 654	Ahoy Constantine, Will search to see if there are any pics extant. Sadly the spruce block is no more as it was consigned to the wood stove. However, I am splitting and cutting firewood, and if I can find the time I can replicate the test, this time with a 3" 1911, last time a 5" 1911 Colt was used. The 45 ACP cartridge is a bit of a paradox, not a great penetrator, nonetheless a great devastator. And out of a shorty 3" barrel, the slower velocity means even less penetration. 1911s and AMTs come with short 3" barrels, not sure if Glocks do...? Seem to recall Custer went into the LBH with a pair of 45 cal 3" barreled Webleys...shell casings were found under his body, but the Webleys were gone. Decades ago, the Canadian military conducted a test, 45 ACP 1911 vs 9mm Hi-Power. The 45 ACP penetrated a steel helmet out to 30 yards, the 9mm out to 100 yards. Check your 6. __________________ For 20 years the sea was my home, always recall the sun going down, and my trusty friend, a 1911 pistol, strapped to my side.

October 12, 2011, 03:12 PM	#26
NJgunowner Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 1,254	More people have been killed by .22's than 9mm, .40, or .45's But anyway, pick what you're comfortable with and get a quality Self Defense round for it that functions well in the gun you use it in. 9mm, .40, .45, Indian chief, doesn't really matter. Just go with what you like and you'll be fine. I LIKE the 10mm the best, but most people are to wimpy for it .

October 12, 2011, 08:35 PM	#29
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	Seaman, nice test and write up. Wish I had pictures of it. This is making me want to safe my P226 E2 with the TLR1 and mount it on my Glock 21 or XD45. Too many loved ones home. SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - Remington 870

October 12, 2011, 09:22 PM	#30
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	Of course that SIG and Glock 27 ARE my main carry guns. And so is the G21 and 1911...aah SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - Remington 870

October 17, 2011, 09:52 AM	#33
Tactical Jackalope Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 6,429	Seaman. Thank you sir Funny, I have both those guns and love them both greatly! I can't wait to get my 1911 back. I really need to do my own tests. So hard to in Miami -___- I want a thread with pics and everything. Gotta find that farm I went to once. Called Henry's. SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - S&W 642 - Remington 870

October 17, 2011, 12:00 PM	#34
Mrgunsngear Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2011 Location: Carolina Posts: 3,415	As illustrated in the example above, as a general rule of thumb, lighter faster bullets penetrate less than slow and heavy bullets. This contradicts what most people think but it's true. Go to any ammo makers site and look at the terminal ballistics of a 115 grain and 147 grain 9mm of the same bullet. The 147 (larger and slower) will penetrate more. Also, look at the 'box of truth' website which is by no means sceintific but it is a good data point. People always think that their handgun rounds will penetrate more than rifle rounds, but in many cases (Hornady TAP Urban for instance) it's just not so.

October 17, 2011, 12:33 PM	#35
810wmb Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2009 Posts: 114	i have a 1911 loaded with hollow points in my bedholster. i choose 45 acp hollow points because i want the people i shoot to explode like a cantaloupe being hit with a 12 gauge slug. no worries except cleanup!

October 17, 2011, 02:19 PM	#36
SocialAnarchist Junior member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 508	Caliber is less relevant than well placed shots.