Gun safety psa!!!

[ebutler462]

Shortwave, another vote for common sense. I love to read retiredlawman's posts. He makes more sense than I can explaining the consequences. I am an old man myself and am willing to listen to reason. I am a retired detective that will agree with every word he said. When you've been on the scene and observed the consequences, it makes a difference.

[MLeake]

I really don't mean to disparage your advice, and I do appreciate both the effort you took to post it, and your 30 year career. Thanks for both.

But I do think, based on a lot of the posts I've read in any number of threads, that for many posters, the choice of gun is going to be the least of their legal worries. Review of what legally constitutes valid self-defense, and a review of the results of civil cases that followed "not guilty" verdicts, are things you implied were worthwhile, and I think doing that kind of research will have more benefit, than selection of arms.

That said, I think you are right that a non-military looking firearm will scare the anti crowd less. I just don't always think a non-scary firearm is an option. In some cases, "hunting" weapons are just too large. Hunting handguns are hard to carry concealed; long-barreled shotguns and rifles are hard to maneuver with in potentially close quarters.

This is why I think the most important thing is knowing when not to shoot, and understanding the value of avoiding threats when possible. That, and understanding what NOT to say, should the worst case come our way.

[lizziedog1]

About fifteen years ago, a good friend of mine had to shoot someone in his house. He was home one afternoon when he heard his front door crash open. He immediately retreated to his bedroom. He grabbed his weapon, got along side his bed facing the door, and called 9-1-1.

He was on the phone with the dispatcher when someone came through his bedroom door. Even though he had his gun trained on the door, he paused for a second. It was a kid that was barely 15. That delay almost cost him his life. The kid shot at my friend, luckily for him, he missed. My friend immediately fired back, he did not miss.

He gun was a Remington 11-87 trap model. It was loaded with trap loads. He was a champion trap shooter. He missed making the Olympic team by one target. He was an alternate for that year.

The 911 tape saved his bacon from any criminal prosecution. You could hear his bedroom door open, a small bang from the punks .22 revolver, then a loud bang from the shotgun on the recording.

The shot immediately dropped the kid. It had hit him in the belly. He survived but ended up in a wheelchair and having to use a plastic bag to go the bathroom for the reat of his life. So much for birdshot being harmless. Here is the kicker.

The family of the kid sued my friend. He had to go to court to fight this. Thanks to his good lawyer, the weapon he used, and the 911 tape, he won.

You shoot someone, you will be sued. What you use and how you use it will be used against you. That is reality!!!

[MLeake]

What you use, while it may be important, is less important than why you use it, and how you use it.

All things being equal, I'm more concerned with using a weapon that I shoot well and instinctively, over using a weapon that the DA will like.

Then again, I don't live in a criminal-friendly state; it's not so easy to bring a civil suit against a legally justified SD case where I live. Since my state does have a Castle Doctrine, I can focus my concern virtually 100% on the why and the how, and not worry so much about the what.

If my why and how aren't good, then the what isn't going to matter. If the why and how are good, state laws won't make distinctions re Castle Doctrine over the what.

[roy reali]

You can be sued at anytime for any reason. There are enough greedy, unethical lawyers to take any case.

You also keep mentiong DA. DA has nothing to do with civil litigation. OJ walked on his criminal trial and lost his civil trial. These are two very different animals.

I

[MLeake]

I understand the concept of civil vs criminal law. However, where I live, if the DA (the one I keep mentioning) decides it was a lawful SD shooting in the home, the homeowner enjoys civil immunity. Or, if it goes to trial, but the trial judge/court find that the shooting was justified SD, the homeowner enjoys civil immunity.

This was true where I used to live, and it is true where I currently live.

Florida law actually shields homeowners against civil suits resulting from SD in the home.

From what I've read under Georgia's SD laws, a valid SD defense against an intruder also provides immunity from civil suits.

Again, I'm much more concerned with whether a shooting is justified, than I am with the implement used in the shooting, so long as the implement is legally possessed. If the shooting wasn't justified, then criminal and civil floodgates are open. If the shooting was justified, at least in my neck of the woods, then I have legal immunity from civil suits.

Know the laws of your state. If you live in a state with laws that favor the bad guys, become politically active.

[BlackFeather]

...I know bird shot WILL go through walls... especially because the bedroom walls in my house arent even particle board... they are maybe 1/4 inch "looks like wood" boards... but on the outside of the apartment the walls WILL catch the birdshot... but I know my house... there is one wall that is the connection to the neighbors but has storage tubs and a book case against it... on their side it is a cabinet covered wall... there could be penetration through it all and still hurt the neighbor... but I dont think it would have much velocity... but yet again I know my house... its another variable... I have shot 22 short round nose bullets through doors when the 22lr hollow points stop visibly... yet again though I have birdshot, buck shot, and slugs on my gun... they are all going to go through and hurt someone if I miss... but thats what practice is for... so I do agree that people who think it wont go through need to shoot something first before they say it wont go through...

[zippy13]

Originally Posted by MLeake

Know the laws of your state. If you live in a state with laws that favor the bad guys, become politically active.

Well said -- in a sea of what ifs, it's nice to see a suggestion for a positive action.

[ebutler462]

A good lawyer can find loopholes big enough to throw a horse through in the "Castle Doctrine" states. What is a valid SD shooting will be determined by an inquest after thousands of hours of billable hours by bottom feeding shysters. Don't get over confident just because there is a castle Doctrine. The validity of your actions is wide open as to the definition of "valid".

[MLeake]

But the courts are supposed to throw out such suits with prejudice, if a self-defense claim is substantiated.

And if a BG, or his survivors depending on how the SD case initiated, file suits, there is always the threat of countersuits for the mental anguish, legal hassles, etc caused by the BG breaking in, attacking etc. If the BG's actions warranted a finding of self-defense, I'd think I'd have better odds on the countersuit.

Meanwhile, my point remains - hunting guns aren't always practical or even possible.

If I decide to compete with my M1 Garand, does that mean that I should use it as my first choice for HD since it's a weapon I'd regularly use for a recognized sporting purpose? If so, how is an 8-shot semiauto .30-06 less scary than a 6-shot pump action 12ga?

I could always have an attorney consult a Massad Ayoob type self-defense expert witness, so he'd know to point out things such as: What do local police departments carry as squad car weapons? (12ga pump with short barrel and extended mag, or AR-15 variant, or Mini-14) OR Why does the defendant have an AR-15? (Defendant bought it so he could practice between military deployments, and later so he could practice prior to deployment as a defense contractor; defendant prefers the AR and the short barreled pump because he received military training on them and is most proficient in their uses, as far as long guns go) etc.

Again, my biggest worry isn't the hardware, it's making sure I have exhausted reasonable options prior to pulling a trigger with whatever weapon I use, and in making sure that my rationale is made clear, after consultation with and in the presence of my attorney. (Theoretically; haven't had to use a weapon for SD, and hope I never have to)

[StuntManMike]

The birdshot as a defense round question to me was answered when Greg Lemond won two Tour De Frances after getting shot while hunting with his brother in-law. The guy Cheney shot lived too.

I wonder how a breaching round would do as an alternative. Does it require a hard object (ie, a lock) to break up or will a soft fleshy one do?

[RaisedByWolves]

According to this old US NG/army training vid:
(At minuite 4:40)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxnoi...om=PL&index=31
At one time, the army used only 3 loads:

oo buck , 71/2, and # 9 shot ( 9 shot for target practice, so labled earlier in vid.)

So 71/2 shot is leathal enough

Hate to burst you bubble, but the #7.5 and #9 were not used in combat. These were training rounds used solely for economical reasons.

[Uncle Buck]

The bird shot as a defense round question to me was answered when Greg Lemond won two Tour De Frances after getting shot while hunting with his brother in-law. The guy Cheney shot lived too.

But they were not intentional shots. If anyone is so comfortable that bird shot will not kill/maim an intruder, please step up and have a friend perform the test on you. Take a chest full of bird shot from 10 feet and let us know. Even better, put a video of it on you-tube and send us the link.

[RaisedByWolves]

Make you a deal Buck.


Hows about we face off at 10', you with bird shot, me with OO?

[Uncle Buck]

LMAO! Nah, I'll pass on that one. Not because I am afraid of what the buckshot might do to my fine physiques, but because if you missed you would end up ruining my wheel chair, and they are a pain in the butt to change tires on.

But if you can find someone willing to do it, maybe I could be the guy who counts for them. They can start back to back, I'll coun't to ten....

[RaisedByWolves]

Had no idear you were in a chair.


This gives you an unfar advantage as you would be lined up with my Twig and Berrys. Getting shot with bird shot in the bird, well.....Whole new set of facts.

[rantingredneck]

This one has gone so far OT from the OP it's unbelievable..........

[hogdogs]

RR,
I agree... death veer like a 1975 ford F-150 with bad trailing arm bushings....
Brent