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Old January 18, 2018, 10:51 PM   #26
NateKirk
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Many states with strict gun laws would either have to give up some of their authority to make laws tailored to their own populations, or looser states would have to adopt stricter gun laws. There's no compromising in this day and age.
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Old January 18, 2018, 10:53 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Troy800
I want my federal goverment to have minimal control over me. It should be decided at the states level. I dont want representatives from 49 other states having control over my state.
What's the point of arguing that the Constitution is the highest law of the land, and that the 2A is part of the Constitution, if you don't want the national government to enforce the Constitution? By your logic, the McDonald case should have been decided in favor of the State of Illinois, and Illinois shouldn't be required to issue carry permits.
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Old January 18, 2018, 10:54 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by NateKirk
... or looser states would have to adopt stricter gun laws.
Why would looser states have to adopt stricter gun laws?
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Old January 19, 2018, 10:03 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by LR2
You might be right and I may or may not say anything. But if we are to follow this pattern within our own group (not speak up to offer a different view) then how will we ever convince those who are on the fence about guns rights in general? Are we to stay quiet while the rest of the media and politicians keep broadcasting their anti-gun views?
I did not mean to suggest to you that advocacy is useless, only that it might be useless in the specific situation you've described.

The federalist objection to handing Congress the power to regulate strictly intrastate carry is one I've found to be a minority position in most groups of shooters, this one included. Your original sentiment, the one I quote back to you on the prior page is practical and easy to understand.

Put a bit differently, federalism and constitutional limits on federal power are a protection against federal dictation that could prohibit legal carry when federal office holders change. If we ignore those constitutional limits when it suits our desires, how are we situated to assert those limits when the winds change and people desire to prohibit you from carrying or possessing?

I believe the way I've put it is less intuitive than the way you have, but these are your acquaintances and you'll have a better sense of what they would accept.
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Old January 19, 2018, 10:14 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan View Post
That's not an argument against reciprocity, because reciprocity is not a prerequisite to passing such a law.
Agreed, reciprocity is not a prerequisite, but with skin in the game, reciprocity makes it more likely.
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Old January 19, 2018, 10:56 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by NateKirk View Post
Many states with strict gun laws would either have to give up some of their authority to make laws tailored to their own populations, or looser states would have to adopt stricter gun laws. There's no compromising in this day and age.
I have been thinking more about this thread while going about my daily business....... And even though I have already posted once with my thought, I think I may appreciate the OP's thread even more.

The current system is probably the "best" we have, unfortunately.

NateKirk, your spot on IMO. We would have too many blue states demanding that the people as a whole would only be allowed to have a certain amount of rounds in a mag, no imprinting allowed (not to say I imprint on purpose, but there are times I am sure I do imprint a little), no mods to the pistols.

I guess I don't want other states trying to dictate what I can do in my own state, either. Now I am seeing the bigger picture.

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Old January 19, 2018, 05:28 PM   #32
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The NSSF has just weighed in on the issue:

https://www.nssf.org/more-new-jersey...y-reciprocity/
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Old January 20, 2018, 01:18 PM   #33
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I am in favor of national reciprocity. I am NOT in favor of a federal mandate or law forcing such.

The system allows for complete reciprocity, already, and always has. The fact that some states choose not to participate, is also allowed in our system.

Yes, it ought to be like drivers licenses, where all the states have chosen to accept all the other states licenses. But it isn't, and its within the law, and states rights for them to make that choice.

If you are looking for a short, simple argument against national reciprocity, there isn't one. Nor, should there be. It's a good idea, and a sound principle.

HOWEVER, there are numerous and valid arguments about how national reciprocity is to be obtained. Right now, it is the will of certain states to set their own standards for what they will, and will not recognize in this matter.

Is it a just use of Federal authority to take this away from them?? Does the Federal govt HAVE the LEGAL authority to do it? (you have to look at MORE than just the "full faith and credit" clause of the Constitution, because, that clause does not (in legal terms) say what most people think it says)

I think its horrible that someone could be looking at years of jail time, simply because they missed their exit on the freeway, or their plane had to make an emergency landing. I also think its horrible that in those kind of cases, the state prosecutes them to the full extent of the law.

No matter what is, and isn't in any reciprocity bill, if it becomes law, its certain to be challenged. After it finally reaches the high court (and assuming the high court chooses to hear the case -which is NOT a given) then we well have a decision. Probably a bad one.
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Old January 22, 2018, 08:34 AM   #34
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I was curious about the Constitutionality of National Reciprocity. I understand the Constitutionality when it involves a person going from state A to state B but how is it justified when person is merely carrying in state A? How does carry just in state A affect interstate commerce or fall under another part of the U.S. Constitution?
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Old January 22, 2018, 08:51 AM   #35
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How does carry just in state A affect interstate commerce or fall under another part of the U.S. Constitution?
Over the years, the interstate commerce provision of the Constitution has been perverted into justifying whatever political agenda is wanted.

Here is the actual text of how they rationalized the interstate provision to ban guns from schools ...

104th CONGRESS 1st Session S. 890

To amend title 18, United States Code, with respect to gun free schools, and for other purposes.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES June 7 (legislative day, June 5), 1995

The Congress finds and declares that-- (A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem; B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs ... (F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country; G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States ...



Want to take it to a greater extreme??? Look up Wickard v. Filburn at: https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/317us111

In the case below, Filburn affected interstate commerce by growing his own feed and not getting it though the normal channels of interstate commerce.

Filburn was a small farmer in Ohio ... harvested nearly 12 acres of wheat above his allotment. He claimed that he wanted the wheat for use on his farm, including feed for his poultry and livestock. Fiburn was penalized. He argued that the excess wheat was unrelated to commerce since he grew it for his own use ...

The rule laid down by Justice Jackson is that even if an activity is local and not regarded as commerce, "it may still, whatever its nature, be reached by Congress if it exerts a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce, and this irrespective of whether such effect is what might at some earlier time have been defined as 'direct' or 'indirect.'"
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Old January 22, 2018, 11:34 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Skolnick View Post
Over the years, the interstate commerce provision of the Constitution has been perverted into justifying whatever political agenda is wanted.

Here is the actual text of how they rationalized the interstate provision to ban guns from schools ...

104th CONGRESS 1st Session S. 890

To amend title 18, United States Code, with respect to gun free schools, and for other purposes.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES June 7 (legislative day, June 5), 1995

The Congress finds and declares that-- (A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem; B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs ... (F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country; G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States ...



Want to take it to a greater extreme??? Look up Wickard v. Filburn at: https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/317us111

In the case below, Filburn affected interstate commerce by growing his own feed and not getting it though the normal channels of interstate commerce.

Filburn was a small farmer in Ohio ... harvested nearly 12 acres of wheat above his allotment. He claimed that he wanted the wheat for use on his farm, including feed for his poultry and livestock. Fiburn was penalized. He argued that the excess wheat was unrelated to commerce since he grew it for his own use ...

The rule laid down by Justice Jackson is that even if an activity is local and not regarded as commerce, "it may still, whatever its nature, be reached by Congress if it exerts a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce, and this irrespective of whether such effect is what might at some earlier time have been defined as 'direct' or 'indirect.'"

Is there any evidence, in general from our founding fathers, to support the way interstate commerce is treated by the courts?
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Old January 22, 2018, 12:27 PM   #37
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Is there any evidence, in general from our founding fathers, to support the way interstate commerce is treated by the courts?
I rather doubt it. Any "evidence" you can find in the Founder's writings and in the Constitution itself would be considered an "interpretation" by those of opposing viewpoints, and their version is just as valid as yours, until a court says otherwise.

And the courts have already said otherwise, so otherwise it is, until /unless another court says differently.

The current interpretation of the law is, essentially, that anything that can be bought or sold "affects" interstate commerce. Whether you buy it, sell it, or don't do either.

Many of us consider this a huge overreach by the govt., but until a court rules otherwise, it is the law.

The law does not consider the amount of the effect on interstate commerce that you have when you don't buy or sell, only the fact that there is an effect by not doing so, and they have so ruled.

Doesn't matter how large or how small the effect is, the courts have ruled that there IS an effect, and because there is an effect, the government has the legal authority to regulate it.

our laws are full of situations where a legal restriction is placed on something because of what MIGHT be done with it. Especially in firearms laws and regulations. Lots of things fall under the law, not because of something you did (which actually does fall under the law) but what you could do, or might do, which, IF DONE would be a crime.

The easiest place to see this principle in action is the laws defining what is, and is not a loaded firearm for transportation. The common sense definition, that a gun is loaded when it has ammunition in it, is applied, BUT ALSO applied ( in many places) is the legal definition that the gun is loaded if ammunition COULD be put in it. A gun can be legally loaded, and yet physically empty of ammunition at the same time!

You could be breaking the law, not by what you did, or didn't do, but by what you could do. It don't seem right, but it is the law...
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Old January 22, 2018, 12:32 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ATN082268 View Post
Is there any evidence, in general from our founding fathers, to support the way interstate commerce is treated by the courts?
If you mean the way interstate commerce is CURRENTLY treated by the courts, then, no.
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Old January 22, 2018, 01:17 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ATN082268
Is there any evidence, in general from our founding fathers, to support the way interstate commerce is treated by the courts?
You mean to empower Congress to regulate intrastate, non-commercial matters? There were certainly some early americans who found the limitations put on central government unwise. If I recall correctly, Hamilton's ideas about a standing army and a central bank were viewed by many as a european hangover. However, commercial regulation within states was still firmly a matter of state police power, and states and the country were different things then.

We all live in a country that has survived the Civil War, WWI, the great depression and WWII. Those are events that forged our identity as a single nation. Prior to the Civil War, people regarded themselves as Virginians or Ohioans, sort of the way Germans and Italians consider themselves citizens of sovereign nations even though lots of their laws are made in Brussels. In that context, having Congress tell people within a state that they may not grow more than X amount of wheat couldn't have made any sense.

Commerce clause cases teach an important lesson. The COTUS grants to Congress a power to regulate a specific area, interstate, i.e. amongst the states, commerce, buying and selling and the attendant acts. However, people wanted Congress to regulate other things too, so Congress regulated them. When the laws were challenged, people on the Sup Ct who were friendly to the goal of the new regulations wrote opinions explaining why matters that themselves were not even arguably interstate commerce, e.g. growing feed for your own livestock, were nonetheless objects of congressional regulation under the commerce clause.

The lesson this teaches is that the COTUS is not an unbridgeable barricade protecting rights from political defeat, and it isn't self executing. For 2d Am. advocates this means that the work of explaining the rights involved is an endless task.

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Old January 22, 2018, 03:57 PM   #40
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The lesson this teaches is that the COTUS is not an unbridgeable barricade protecting rights from political defeat, and it isn't self executing. For 2d Am. advocates this means that the work of explaining the rights involved is an endless task.
On May 2, 1833, probably referencing Thomas Jefferson as the "some one", the The Virginia Free Press and Farmers' Repository wrote: Some one has justly remarked, that 'eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.' Let the sentinels on the watch-tower sleep not, and slumber not.

It is as true back then as when zukiphile said it moments ago.
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Old January 23, 2018, 07:48 PM   #41
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It runs counter to the idea of "State's Rights".

If forces states to adopt laws the majority of their citizens do not want, which many would find objectionable.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the 2nd Amendment can be subject to certain regulations.

Forcing California to in effect, adopt Vermont's laws on concealed weapons is little different than forcing Utah to adopt California's stance on the sale of alcoholic beverages or telling Texas they should have to treat residents of Massachusetts as if they were in Boston when they wanted an abortion in Texas (because a briefly held majority in congress says so).
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Old January 23, 2018, 08:08 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ATN082268
Is there any evidence, in general from our founding fathers, to support the way interstate commerce is treated by the courts?
How can there be? Any court decisions based on the Constitution necessarily followed after the adoption of the Constitution, not during the discussion leading up to adoption. The Constitution specifically assigns to the federal government the power to regulate interstate commerce. How could the founders know how courts 100 or 200 years in the future might interpret that?
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Old January 23, 2018, 08:24 PM   #43
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If one accepts the fact that the US Constitution applies to all US citizens no matter which state they reside in, or travel through, and that the 2nd Amendment of said Constitution states that the "right of the people to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed", therefore the states have no authority to infringe on that right.

Words mean things.

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Old January 23, 2018, 11:10 PM   #44
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I agree, words mean things. The trouble is, that the same words can mean different things to different people, or be held to mean different things at different times.

If, for instance, if you believe that those rights and restrictions mentioned in the Constitution and federal law apply only to federal law, then this would also be true..

If one accepts the fact that the US Constitution applies to all US citizens no matter which state they reside in, or travel through, and that the 2nd Amendment of said Constitution states that the "right of the people to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed", therefore only the states have the authority to infringe on that right.


The Second Amendment is actually a rather poor choice to use as an example in this case, because the Federal Government itself has violated the "shall not be infringed" language numerous times.

Tell me how a federal govt that doesn't follow its own laws has the moral authority to tell a state government that they cannot follow their own state laws.

The fact that the US Federal govt won the Civil War isn't quite enough...at least, not to me.

No matter what some might wish, we do NOT live in a one tier system. Each level of govt has levels of authority and the legal right to them.

Got any state law you don't like? Check and see if there is a corresponding federal law. If yes, then demand the fed force the state to do away with their law (its unnecessary..) if no, demand the Fed force the state to do away with their law, (its unnecessary)....

see any problem with that???
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Old January 24, 2018, 07:12 AM   #45
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If one accepts the fact that the US Constitution applies to all US citizens no matter which state they reside in, or travel through, and that the 2nd Amendment of said Constitution states that the "right of the people to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed", therefore the states have no authority to infringe on that right.
Originally, the Bill of Rights, only restricted Congress, not state and local governments.


U.S. Supreme Court -- Barron v. Mayor & City Council of Baltimore (1833)
We are of opinion that the provision in the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution declaring that private property shall not be taken for public use without just compensation is intended solely as a limitation on the exercise of power by the Government of the United States, and is not applicable to the legislation of the States.

U.S. Supreme Court -- United States v. Cruikshank (1875)
The First Amendment to the Constitution, prohibiting Congress from abridging the right to assemble and petition, was not intended to limit the action of the State governments in respect to their own citizens, but to operate upon the National Government alone. It left the authority of the States unimpaired ...



Since the late 1800s, the Supreme Court has been ruling that the 14th Amendment (something that did not exist when the Bill of Rights was authored) extends the Bill of Rights to all levels of government through the equal rights provision. It is called "the Doctrine of Incorporation."

While I do not believe the 14th Amendment intended the Bill of Rights to be applied to the states, reality forces me to admit that the Supreme Court ruling is the law of the land.

The ruling being what the ruling is, then the 2nd Amendment modified by the 14th Amendment prohibits the states and localities from disarming their citizenry.

The Robert's Court in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) and McDonald v. Chicago (2010) SPECIFICALLY extended the 2nd Amendment to the states and localities through the Doctrine of Incorporation.
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Old January 24, 2018, 08:11 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bob Willman
If one accepts the fact that the US Constitution applies to all US citizens no matter which state they reside in, or travel through, and that the 2nd Amendment of said Constitution states that the "right of the people to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed", therefore the states have no authority to infringe on that right.

Words mean things.
Welcome to TFL, Bob!

Words do mean things, but may not mean what you think they mean. I wrote a Federal Constitutional Primer a few years back. I'll suggest that you read the section on incorporation.
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Old January 24, 2018, 09:34 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by 44AMP
The fact that the US Federal govt won the Civil War isn't quite enough...at least, not to me.

No matter what some might wish, we do NOT live in a one tier system. Each level of govt has levels of authority and the legal right to them.
44, I concur with the sentiment, but note the contrast with political reality. When enough people want ours to be a single tier system, words on paper are not an obstacle. If "exchanges established by the states" really means "exchanges established by the states or the federal government if states decide not to establish exchanges", our reality is somewhat fluid.

Gonzales v. Raich raised the issue of whether the commerce clause gave Congress the power to effectively prohibit marijuana cultivation and use even though CA had allowed law allowing cultivation and consumption. I think widespread MJ use is a real problem an oppose its normalization. Brilliant men for whom I have great respect argued on behalf of the government in that case. They saw the danger of MJ is so great that Congress must have the power to regulate it. (The argument I recall from the time was that denying Congress intrastate control would effectively deny Congress interstate control). These same men are also proponents of constitutionally limited government.

I give that context to illustrate the lure of federal power even for smart, good and well intentioned people. As much as I don't want to see MJ normalized, that opinion shouldn't overcome a constitutional limit, yet it did.

I see the same temptation of over-reach in the congressionally mandated reciprocity issue. More liberal carry laws are a good thing, something worth arguing about. It just isn't worth doing the wrong way.

Last edited by zukiphile; January 24, 2018 at 11:19 AM.
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Old January 24, 2018, 11:56 AM   #48
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If you take the argument to its absurd extreme, Congress should not pass a national reciprocity law. Instead, congress should make a law that abolishes ALL permits. (Since that would be "equal treatment under the law". If one state, or more don't require a permit, none should.

And, while they're at it, go ahead and abolish all state governments as well. There's no point to them anymore, Federalize EVERYTHING!!!!

And, why not?, since the concept of "sovereign states" is apparently an obsolete political concept. Maybe keep State Governors, as figureheads...but absolutely disband all state legislatures, they're not needed.

All state employees would become Federal employees, all state revenue would go to the Federal govt. Think of the benefits, no more confusing and costly requirement that differ from state to state. ABOUT EVERYTHING!

Your Detroit car no longer costs more because it has to meet the CA emission standards, only the Federal standards.

IF states are actually nothing more than bureaucratic districts, subdivisions of the Federal Government, in fact, why not?? It would be more efficient.

And, once that's done, and the Fed is the ONLY government, then we can dissolve the Federal Congress, too, since its members are elected by the states, and state choices and decisions no longer matter.

And there would be little need for a Supreme Court, either. All we need is a good, strong Executive branch, to collect the taxes, and make all those pesky decisions for us, everyone would be under exactly the same laws and regulations, everywhere in the country, We should all work for this! It would be a victory for common sense, a victory for equality,

A victory for the rights of the people, all under one central uniform authority! We should praise the ideal!!

HAIL VICTORY!!!!!!

Seig Heil!!!!


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Old January 24, 2018, 12:34 PM   #49
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44, to be clear, I am not celebrating sucessful Congressional over-reach, but noting it's reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44AMP
Instead, congress should make a law that abolishes ALL permits. (Since that would be "equal treatment under the law". If one state, or more don't require a permit, none should.
Though I sense your tongue in your cheek, I don't think that position is incoherent even if it isn't a political possibility. I don't need a permit to publish or vote or go to church. If Ohio told me I could only attend lutheran churches, and then only so as long as they aren't within a thousand feet of a school and I had filled out the right papers and taken a 12 hour class on how to behave in church, I 'd see a problem with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44AMP
Your Detroit car no longer costs more because it has to meet the CA emission standards, only the Federal standards.
I see that example as funny because it's the other side of the coin. If the interstate trade in automobiles is properly regulated by Congress to aid uniformity and trade, then federal standards should pre-empt state standards. However, CA is large, wields real political power, and can bend the federal government to get a waiver.

The power to regulate interstate commerce makes sense even where states are semi-sovereign. To abhor misapplication of the power is not the same as decrying the legitimate exercise of the granted power.

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Old January 24, 2018, 01:41 PM   #50
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If the SCOTUS has defined the 2nd amendment as an individual right, as I understand it, why are the privileges of that right altered by one's state of residence?

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