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Old January 16, 2020, 02:24 PM   #51
labnoti
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Yes. I absolutely agree there is a "balance" between preventing ND's and allowing for hits. We must not have guns so difficult to fire as to make good hits impractical. This very issue was an essential part of the crux for justifying the change from revolvers to semi-automatics for law-enforcement, and the subsequent progress toward shorter and lighter triggers. It is a practical and very meaningful need that the gun allow people to make good hits.

This is where "training" comes in. Just as "training" is part of the solution to mitigating ND's, it is also part of the solution with respect to trigger-control. Each individual is different and we have different capabilities. I don't think one type of gun or trigger is best for all people. A person needs to evaluate their physical capacity and decide whether they're better off focusing their training on trigger-control with a long heavy trigger or the challenges presented by a short light trigger, or somewhere in-between that probably means they'll face both challenges.

The reason I personally prefer long, heavy double-action triggers is because I have the physical capacity to master it, and I can do so training under "normal" conditions. Provided the physical capability, training can absolutely address the difficulty of DAO triggers.

How does a person train to overcome the challenges of a short light trigger? They can practice safe handling procedures to prevent ND's under everyday conditions, but training themselves under the stress they'll face in a lethal force incident is totally impractical for most people. We cannot practically duplicate the kind of psychological stress we'll be under in those conditions. The closest we might come is Force on Force. But how many civilians do taht at all? How many LE's do that more than rarely? We do know that we can perform trained physical tasks like firing a double-action trigger under those conditions. But how do we avoid performing unwanted reactions like startle-response, sympathetic grasp reflex, contralateral contraction, and trigger affirmation? How can we even practice that? At best we can try to practice "keeping our finger off the trigger." But research has shown this to have marginal results at best even among those intensely and exhaustively so trained.

So, train DAO triggers that we can practice and achieve success with? Or try to train a part of our psyche that we cannot even access in practice?

It is evident that most people as well as most institutional agencies have chosen something in-between. They're not willing to put the training in to truly master a DAO trigger, and there are certainly some people for whom it will never be physically practical for them.

I wonder if the in-between trigger isn't the worst of both worlds. Maybe that's why we see triggers gradually migrating toward ever shorter and lighter. At least then people only have one problem to address. Personally, I find myself quite content with the difficulty of a DAO trigger. It's a problem I know how to solve.
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Old January 16, 2020, 03:14 PM   #52
TunnelRat
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If you know how to solve your problem then you're all done. Others have to choose how to solve their problems.

I learned to shoot on a Model 13. I've carried DA/SA for years and likely have more trigger time on them than "safe-action" striker fired pistols. I too can "master" the physical limitations of the trigger. I still carry a Glock. Why? Because after multiple courses having trained under instructors I came to believe that the DA pull was not required for safety and I had personally seen that when the conditions weren't always "normal", as in I was tired or my adrenaline was pumping the shots with DA on a square range that were easy weren't so much anymore. That was my evolution. If people want to keep using DA that's certainly their choice. My example likely does not apply to someone else. At some point we choose what works for us and move on. Then there's no reason to belabor the point.

I will add that I have used a SIG P226 in DA that was converted to UTM for force on force. When I used it I had no memory of the weight of the trigger pull afterwards, and these were the older German models with very stout triggers. There are two ways to interpret this. One is, "Obviously it didn't stop you from getting hits in then." That might be, though I did miss a number of shots throughout the day regardless of the trigger and my experiences on paper suggested otherwise. My takeaway was that DA pull in no way was going to stop a true startle response on my end with the adrenaline I had going.

Lastly, there are also a lot of triggers that fall in between what I would call long, heavy double action and short, light. It's not just rough Ruger Security Six and tuned 1911 out in the world.

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Last edited by TunnelRat; January 16, 2020 at 03:55 PM.
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Old January 17, 2020, 05:38 PM   #53
wild cat mccane
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Sorry TunnelRat.

Wasn't fighting, but just disagreeing. The PPQ was the first true single action drop safe dingus striker.

The P99AS was the first all together with the dingus being located on the opposite side, internally.


I would not recommend the V-Line unless you get the Brute. I have a Brute. $246 on amazon now/just ran a $50 off in September. My thought is the Brute used to be $200 so isn't that great of a deal at $250...but there aren't alternatives... The Brute is 10gauge steel. The other V-Lines are 14 and 16ga which is junk. If you have tools in your house, all steel can be drilled out or sawzalled. To open a broken Fort Knox or V-Line, call them and they will tell you where to drill to open it.

I do like the V-Line Brute over Fort Knox. The clam shell closure is worth it. Fort Knox and V-Line both use the Simplex lock. So the lock will fail the same, but the added side security is worth it. Through recall, a thicker steel is many times stronger than layered steel.

the Compact V-line at 16ga can be defeated with a claw hammer going through the metal. 18ga is file cabinet level. It astounds me that most gun "safes" are 14-16 gauge. Stack-On is almost all 16 or 18 gauge for example.

The 200 dollar 14ga V-line, also can be defeated by a claw hammer.

The 10 gauge probably won't be defeated by a claw hammer.

Last edited by wild cat mccane; January 17, 2020 at 07:19 PM.
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Old January 18, 2020, 03:26 PM   #54
Carl the Floor Walker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labnoti View Post
Yes. I absolutely agree there is a "balance" between preventing ND's and allowing for hits. We must not have guns so difficult to fire as to make good hits impractical. This very issue was an essential part of the crux for justifying the change from revolvers to semi-automatics for law-enforcement, and the subsequent progress toward shorter and lighter triggers. It is a practical and very meaningful need that the gun allow people to make good hits.

This is where "training" comes in. Just as "training" is part of the solution to mitigating ND's, it is also part of the solution with respect to trigger-control. Each individual is different and we have different capabilities. I don't think one type of gun or trigger is best for all people. A person needs to evaluate their physical capacity and decide whether they're better off focusing their training on trigger-control with a long heavy trigger or the challenges presented by a short light trigger, or somewhere in-between that probably means they'll face both challenges.

The reason I personally prefer long, heavy double-action triggers is because I have the physical capacity to master it, and I can do so training under "normal" conditions. Provided the physical capability, training can absolutely address the difficulty of DAO triggers.

How does a person train to overcome the challenges of a short light trigger? They can practice safe handling procedures to prevent ND's under everyday conditions, but training themselves under the stress they'll face in a lethal force incident is totally impractical for most people. We cannot practically duplicate the kind of psychological stress we'll be under in those conditions. The closest we might come is Force on Force. But how many civilians do taht at all? How many LE's do that more than rarely? We do know that we can perform trained physical tasks like firing a double-action trigger under those conditions. But how do we avoid performing unwanted reactions like startle-response, sympathetic grasp reflex, contralateral contraction, and trigger affirmation? How can we even practice that? At best we can try to practice "keeping our finger off the trigger." But research has shown this to have marginal results at best even among those intensely and exhaustively so trained.

So, train DAO triggers that we can practice and achieve success with? Or try to train a part of our psyche that we cannot even access in practice?

It is evident that most people as well as most institutional agencies have chosen something in-between. They're not willing to put the training in to truly master a DAO trigger, and there are certainly some people for whom it will never be physically practical for them.

I wonder if the in-between trigger isn't the worst of both worlds. Maybe that's why we see triggers gradually migrating toward ever shorter and lighter. At least then people only have one problem to address. Personally, I find myself quite content with the difficulty of a DAO trigger. It's a problem I know how to solve.
So very well said Labnoti. So glad I took the time to learn the DAO. Personally I view learning the DAO like a advanced class. Or leaning to be skillful at point and shoot skills.
But form what I have seen with the guys I shoot with including myself, Once mastered we never want to go back.
Most new shooters just cannot shoot them well and from what I have seen, most others do not want to take the effort to learn. Or some just cannot shoot them.

I guess I count myself as lucky. Learning and mastering DAO has been a blessing especially for EDC. I have no intention of ever going back unless of course I decide some day to start doing nothing but Bulls eye shooting. Had my share of that years ago.

And I started my son off with nothing but DAO triggers. Now he can do wonders with one and has no desire to learn a light striker fired gun. Just does not like shooting them at all. Smooth, controlled, deliberate, that is the name of the game for us.

PS I copied and pasted your post into a personal file I have. Again great post.

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; January 18, 2020 at 03:39 PM.
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Old February 8, 2020, 10:54 AM   #55
URIT
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Join Date: February 7, 2020
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While agreeing with labnoti, I want to suggest adamBomb consider all-metal handguns from yesteryear, e.g., the S&W Gen3 9mm compact models particularly the 3900 series.

I realize you may have already bought another gun (???) since you posted this thread but there is always your next gun.

I've EDC'd a 908, 3913LS, 6906, and settled on a DAO model 3953 two years ago as my favorite CCW. I like this DAO model because I can get a solid grip on the gun from an IWB holster. The added 3 ounces over the Shield helps with recoil management. The gun concealed well under a t-shirt even in our humid NC summer weather.

I carry my 3953 in an open-top clip-on holster positioned just in front of my hip bone. This type of holster allows me to easily move it from one side to the other when needed.
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Old February 8, 2020, 11:28 AM   #56
2wheelwander
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CZ PCR or RAMI
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Old February 8, 2020, 05:08 PM   #57
scottycoyote
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sig 938 might be an option
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