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Old June 30, 2019, 05:16 AM   #1
Mobuck
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Wait times

So, after all this time shouldn't the "big rush" have been worked through?
It seems that the rush to get in before the change in regulations that was purportedly the sole reason for the excessive "wait time" should be winding down but it's not happening.
Let's face the fact that ATF is purposely slowing the process. No other response is acceptable. Would it be acceptable for IRS to hold your tax refund for a year? Would it be acceptable for ANY other Federal agency to simply say "We'll do this when we darned well please and there's nothing YOU can do about it"?
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Old June 30, 2019, 08:16 AM   #2
Willie Lowman
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I can't say what is causing the curreent wait times. I can say that things were very different a decade ago. My wait time for my first transfer, a SBS 590 was only 2 months. This was back in '07. I waited about 3 months for the stamps on my first suppressors in '09.
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Old June 30, 2019, 11:28 AM   #3
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Generally speaking, while the government may seem to have unlimited resources, it really only has limited resources for any given thing at any point in time. Do remember that while the govt seems to have all the money in the world, they don't, and in fact spend more money than they actually HAVE (deficit) so, it becomes a matter of who sets the budget for what.

IF, for example, there is a large (and largely unexpected) increase in applications for permits (or tax stamps, etc) the govt doesn't (usually can't) just hire more people and put them on it. The most they can do, is shift people from one area to another, IF they can even do that.

Say, for example there are 4 people processing applications for suppressors for your area, and there is a big increase in the need for people to run regular background checks, two of those suppressor people might be "temporarily" transferred over to work background checks, so suppressor wait time increases.

Govt shutdowns, and the political will of the exectutive also result in shifting changes in resource allocations.

Friend of mine bought an SBR a few years back, sold it last year, Both times his wait was just over 10 MONTHS.

If your wait time is only a couple months, I'd say smile and stop whining.
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Old July 1, 2019, 05:42 AM   #4
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Actually those points add to my comments rather than alleviate the concerns.
While ATF probably doesn't have the "resources" of some other agencies, the cost of 1/2 dozen extra employees dedicated to processing NFA stamps is NOT going to break their budget.
I'd just guess there are a considerable number of ATF agents who are on limited duty, restricted to office duty, hiding in the bathroom avoiding work, or what ever. Any/all of this group could easily be assigned to NFA processing since almost everything can be done remotely via computer these days. Those agents don't HAVE to be in some headquarters basement to do this work.
NO, it's like the sicko who likes torturing puppies. There's no downside to making a citizen sit in the corner until "THEY" decide it's time.
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Old July 1, 2019, 01:25 PM   #5
Bill DeShivs
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I'm pretty sure ATF agents are not the ones doing the processing. ATF has civilian clerks.
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Old July 1, 2019, 08:00 PM   #6
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Mobuck So, after all this time shouldn't the "big rush" have been worked through?
There was the OMG 41F Big Rush, followed by the OMG I'll get a refund if the the HPA passes Big Rush, followed by the Buy One, Get One Free Silencerco Big Rush debacle.


Quote:
It seems that the rush to get in before the change in regulations that was purportedly the sole reason for the excessive "wait time" should be winding down but it's not happening.
Of the several hundred silencers I sold during the 41F panic, all but two have their stamps. Their Form 4's were denied and they had to refile.


Quote:
Let's face the fact that ATF is purposely slowing the process. No other response is acceptable.
The FBI is largely responsible for those Form 4's experiencing extended delays.
Unlike a Title I firearm transfer, Title II transfers require a "proceed" from the FBI. That may never come, leading to eventual denial as "unable to resolve FBI background check".



Quote:
Would it be acceptable for IRS to hold your tax refund for a year? Would it be acceptable for ANY other Federal agency to simply say "We'll do this when we darned well please and there's nothing YOU can do about it"?
While aggravating, I doubt its a conspiracy.
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Old July 1, 2019, 08:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Mobuck Actually those points add to my comments rather than alleviate the concerns.
While ATF probably doesn't have the "resources" of some other agencies, the cost of 1/2 dozen extra employees dedicated to processing NFA stamps is NOT going to break their budget.
I think ATF agrees, and that's why they have asked Congress for additional staff and received it. (and its a lot more than a half dozen people)





Quote:
I'd just guess there are a considerable number of ATF agents who are on limited duty, restricted to office duty, hiding in the bathroom avoiding work, or what ever. Any/all of this group could easily be assigned to NFA processing since almost everything can be done remotely via computer these days. Those agents don't HAVE to be in some headquarters basement to do this work.
NO, it's like the sicko who likes torturing puppies. There's no downside to making a citizen sit in the corner until "THEY" decide it's time.
Zero agents process NFA applications, its Legal Document Examiners and they are getting paid OT to expedite NFA Forms.
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Old July 2, 2019, 06:50 AM   #8
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I don't think either side can "prove" their position but I still have concerns about why some people go to such lengths to support the ATF's position.
It takes me less than a week to hire a part time temporary employee who gets a background check, is issued a government owned computer, and has an ID card giving access to all sorts of confidential information, records, and agency offices.
It takes a year to get basically the same background check and 3 sheets of paper signed by ATF?????
Noper, we're being dragged around the gazebo but I can't prove it.
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Old July 2, 2019, 01:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Mobuck I don't think either side can "prove" their position but I still have concerns about why some people go to such lengths to support the ATF's position.
Once again, you confuse an understanding of a situation as being in support of that position. That's sad.


Quote:
It takes me less than a week to hire a part time temporary employee who gets a background check, is issued a government owned computer, and has an ID card giving access to all sorts of confidential information, records, and agency offices.
Which has what to do with anything at ATF?
It's been common knowledge for DECADES that NFA background checks have the lowest priority at the FBI.
Couple that with 41F requiring a background check on every Responsible Person and you get backlogs....backlogs in data entry at ATF, backlogs in background checks at the FBI.
Heck, 41F means it takes me longer to complete a Form 4 for a customers transfer. I hate trust F4's with a dozen Responsible Persons.....that's a dozen sets of fingerprint cards, a dozen photos, a dozen RP questionnaires…………...and 12X as many opportunities for errors, omissions or just plain old typos.



Quote:
It takes a year to get basically the same background check and 3 sheets of paper signed by ATF?????
That you continue to ask the same questions month after month tells us you are choosing to ignore the answers to the same questions.
1. ATF doesn't run background checks on any firearm. That's the FBI. Those NFA forms that take over a year?...…...that ain't ATF and you know that.
2. ATF cannot approve an NFA form until it receives a "proceed" from the FBI on the individual who applied or a proceed on every Responsible Person on an application by a trust. Unlike Title I transfers, Federal law requires a proceed before approval, no approval after a "three day delay", and no exemptions for state firearm permits.
3. Background checks on individuals and RP's that don't get a "proceed" and/or remain unresolved stay in limbo, ATF can't act on them and eventually the form will be denied because "FBI background check unresolved".
4.Data entry continues to be a huge factor in the wait time. This is seen in the wait times for EForm 1's vs Paper Form 1/4's.


Quote:
Noper, we're being dragged around the gazebo but I can't prove it.
So, lets be clear...…..EForm 1's are being processed and approved in under two months in many cases, as little as 33 days in some. Paper Form 1/4's in eight months...…….and because SOME take a year or more there's an organized plot to purposefully delay the approval of NFA forms? Wouldn't you think that plot would slow roll ALL NFA forms?

The typical 8-10 month wait on a paper Form 4 can be blamed on data entry.
Those forms that exceed 12 months? That extra time is on the FBI.
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Old July 3, 2019, 12:52 PM   #10
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Today 06:27 AM
Mobuck
Quote:
4.Data entry continues to be a huge factor in the wait time. This is seen in the wait times for EForm 1's vs Paper Form 1/4's.
Has ATF not heard of digital scanners? My agency scans hundreds of thousands of pages with a short "window" of time. We only do manual entry on those too smudged or illegible for the scanner to read. Scanners are "smart" and work very well even with questionable hand writing.
Apparently not.





Quote:
If E-form is so effective, why did ATF stop using this option?
Five or so years ago ATF rolled out Eforms for all NFA forms. It was a disaster.
While it worked for some dealers and distributors, it was chock full of problems. Not a week went by that it needed an update/fix/redesign. Sometimes I could log on, but could not actually complete a form before timing out. Often it was impossible to even view forms that had been submitted.

ATF would email dealers several times a week extolling the awesomeness of Eforms, but were tone deaf to those who experienced problems. Fixes/updates/more features were all around the corner and were promised "any day now".

Once word got out that Silencer Shop and a couple of other retailers were doing batch uploads of hundreds of forms a day it really hit the fan.

Shortly after, ATF pulled the system offline.

IMO, ATF bit off more than they could chew. They tried to implement a system before it was ready. Common sense from a nontechie says to implement in pieces......enable Form 3's (SOT to SOT), Form 2 (imports, manufacturing) loooong before enabling Form 1's(maker) and Form 4's (tax paid transfer).

But no, ATF tried to do everything at once with disastrous results.

Soooo...……...when they reintroduced Eforms this past October it was limited to Form 1, 2, 3's. Form 4's have not yet been enabled.



Quote:
I've found that quietly accepting something that's not right often ends up with something even worse next time around.
I would rather ATF take the time to get Eforms right than endure the previous system.
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Last edited by Tom Servo; July 4, 2019 at 08:16 AM. Reason: Removed reference to delete post
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Old July 3, 2019, 07:58 PM   #11
Mobuck
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"Apparently not."

You make this statement based on what? I've worked with the digital scanner processes for decades, have you?
Would running the applications through OCR scanners make the process too efficient?
"enduring the previous system" is what you came to expect and accept rather than demand improvement.
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Old July 3, 2019, 08:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobuck View Post
"Apparently not."

You make this statement based on what? I've worked with the digital scanner processes for decades, have you?
Would running the applications through OCR scanners make the process too efficient?
"enduring the previous system" is what you came to expect and accept rather than demand improvement.
You asked this question: “Has ATF not heard of digital scanners?” He replied “Apparently not.” I don’t see why you’re arguing with that.
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Old July 3, 2019, 09:04 PM   #13
Mobuck
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Call 'em like you see 'em. See you around guys.
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