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Old January 10, 2020, 01:59 AM   #76
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Cooked: This is easy. Explain how a bullet contacts the very base of the feed ramp on a Glock. Starts at the bottom of the ramp and zigzags up
The question was about what guns I had that left brass marks on the feedramp. I posted two pictures and then found another on the web that showed a similar effect.

We now have proof from multiple sources that bullets do, indeed, hit the feedramp during the feed cycle. It boggles the mind that such proof was necessary—one wonders what a feed ramp is for if not to direct cartridges into the chamber and how it could do that if fed rounds never made contact with it—but the proof has now been provided.
So far I have not been able to find anything about set back in the owner's manual in the "5/04 form." If this is the case, shame face on Glock for keeping it a secret. That is, unless it has been discovered between 2004 and 2015.
Proof has been provided that the claim that “no firearm or cartridge manufacturer” provided warnings against setback is false. There have been no claims that the warning was in the Glock owner’s manual—the location of the warning was stated clearly. Concerns that there is no warning in the owner’s manual, should be taken up with Glock by those who are concerned about it, but that’s a separate issue.

We now have proof that at least one firearm manufacturer does provide a warning about setback. If you want to attempt to find more sources, you’re welcome to do so, but their presence or absence doesn’t change anything. Because the claim was sweeping (i.e. NO firearm or cartridge maker warns against setback) only one counterexample was required to debunk it.
The full manual is for Glock armorers: The armorer that did the Glock workshop I attended did not share this set back information with us. He is a retired LEO. If set back is such a big deal how come it's not in the literature in the box? Was the Armorers manual for general use and in wide circulation? Nope.
Contact him and ask him why he didn’t cover it.
Somebody help me with set back in Glock commonly circulated official owners literature. I'm not saying such is not there. If have not found in the owner manual. So far, no warning on set back has been found in the Ptooma Productions "The Complete Glock Reference Guide" If there is one in the book please point it out to me. Thanks for your help.
There have been no claims that there are setback warnings in “Glock commonly circulated official owners literature” or in any of Ptooma Production’s products.

If you want to find further warnings against setback, you should spend your own time doing your own research to satisfy your own curiosity. An official warning from a firearm manufacturer has been provided and that was all that was required to prove the claim was false.
I have cited some specific information and requested that errors be pointed out.
And the errors have been pointed out. But instead of accepting the information (verifying that proof and information as appropriate where you felt there were legitimate concerns about accuracy) you merely changed the "target" or came up with new demands/objections.

Example 1: You claimed that bullets didn’t leave marks on feedramps. Pictures were posted to show that they do. You dismissed them as “cooked” even though they were from multiple sources and even though you could have easily verified their validity by finding other examples. And at the same time you made some nonsensical remarks about zigzags on the feedramp that don’t relate to any claims made on this thread or any pictures posted.

Example 2: You claimed that no firearm or cartridge maker warned against setback. Proof was posted that Glock has published an official warning about setback. Then, instead of accepting that your claim was false, you started asking about warnings in other Glock published materials or in books about Glocks published by other companies even though no one had made any claims about warnings existing in those materials.

Example 3: You claimed that setback is merely internet myth. Multiple firsthand accounts of setback in various guns and with various ammunition have been provided on this thread and yet you apparently dismiss all of them out of hand.

Example 4: You recommended looking at slow motion footage of a 1911 feeding. That footage was provided (before you recommended it, by the way), showing clearly that the round is driven forward into the feedramp and hesitates there upon impact, then the slide drives it forward and up the ramp into the chamber, clearly slowing due to the significant amount of energy required to accomplish that task. Apparently in spite of mentioning it repeatedly you either failed to look at it carefully (which seems likely given that you misidentified the gun in the footage as a Glock instead of accurately noting that it was a 1911) or simply dismissed the obvious visual evidence for no other reason than that it disagreed with your opinion.

Example 5: In post #60, you claimed that no one had explained about why no other rounds in the mag typically showed setback even though there was an explanation provided in post #58.

And so on...

If this thread is just going to become an exhibition of how creative one person can be in their attempts to dismiss substantive proof and/or in their attempts to change the subject/standard of proof as one after another of their claims are shown to be incorrect, then it's the definition of pointless.
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
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Old January 10, 2020, 12:37 PM   #77
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I was at the range yesterday with my shooting partner. After about 300rounds fired he had occasion to field-strip his pistol (a Smith M&P 2.0).

There was a clear drag mark up the center of the dirty feed ramp. This was clearly caused by rounds sliding up the ramp.

How anyone can claim there is no contact between the nose of the bullet and the feed-ramp is beyond comprehension.

As was stated above...what is the FEED ramp for, if not to FEED the round

Last edited by JohnKSa; January 11, 2020 at 12:42 AM. Reason: .
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Old January 10, 2020, 01:45 PM   #78
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The original question was
How many times can you chamber a round safely?
Here's your answer:

Somewhere between 1 and infinity. Period.

The exact number is unknown and unknowable.

It is not something that must happen. It is not something that will happen if you chamber X number of times. It is not something you can say does not happen, it is an observed fact.

It is a RANDOM thing, and is COMPLETELY dependent on a specific combination of factors that are not knowable in advance.

Every single round chambered in every centerfire semi auto COULD have setback, only a very, very, VERY tiny fraction of a percentage of them do.

Every gun, and every round of ammo has a different combination of factors. There is no predictability.

I think we have answered the original question, and are done here.
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
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Old January 10, 2020, 09:10 PM   #79
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The question has been asked and answered as well as possible, so this discussion is closed. Certain posts have wandered into the realm of personal attacks and have been made to disappear. Certain members would be advised to review the forum rules regarding personal attacks.
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