Internet Orders, FFL and Pricing Info.

[BarryLee]

In the past, I’ve ordered a couple of guns on-line and when they arrive at the FFL they include a copy of the invoice which shows the purchase price. Once when I went to pick-up a gun the guys at the LGS gave me a hard time about the cost of the gun. Whether they were right or wrong it is none of their business how I spend my money.

So, does the FFL have to know the cost of the gun for record keeping purposes? I sort of assume they do, but was just curious if I could request the seller to not ship the pricing info. with the gun.

[lamarw]

Your response should be; he, the FFL, should show you some empathy and reduce his FFL fee. I bet he keeps his mouth shut the next time you require his services.

[g.willikers]

It sounds like lazy clerk work.
Just throw all the paper work in the package and let the guys at the other end sort it out.
No reason the receiving dealer needs the price, unless all the info is on one page.
Your request to not include prices with the other information should be honored.
Just make it a condition of the sale.
Bet you will get no complaint then.
These days just about everyone we do business with acts like they deserve info on far more than what's necessary.
We need to be assertive.

[cjwils]

In some states the FFL needs a copy of the invoice as the basis for calculating your state sales tax.

[g.willikers]

Might depend if the gun is being shipped from out of state.
If so and the gun is being paid for directly to the original seller (shipper), wouldn't the only thing subject to sales tax be the transfer fee?
Who is considered the selling dealer would be the deciding factor.??

[FrankenMauser]

No such requirement here.

It's just easier for the shipper to throw the invoice in with the rifle, rather than mail it separately. (Also helps eliminate mistakes with mixing up the FFL and buyer addresses, and committing a felony by shipping the firearm directly to the buyer.)



I've gotten a handful of comments - not really criticism or anything derogatory - about some of the transfers that I'd had done through my preferred LGS when the invoice included purchase price.
After just avoiding the issue a few times, I eventually told them, in response to their comments about what I bought and why I paid what I did:
"It's what I want. You didn't have one for me to buy. You aren't willing to find a specific firearm without charging a ridiculous premium. And it's what I had to pay to get it."
Since 95% of my purchases are used firearms and I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it, they accepted it without issue.

The last two transfers, a 1946 Marlin and a group of Spanish Mausers, were a bit different. When I walked in, the LGS owner just asked pointedly (even though there was an invoice in both instances): "Good deal or bad deal this time?"
Both times, my response was along the lines of, "Reasonable market price. It's what you have to pay to play the game now."

[jag2]

I think the FFL is just examining what ever paperwork is included in the package. May not be officially part of his job but is being thorough as he should be. Just no big deal as far as I'm concerned.

[Berserker]

What I have noticed looking at available FFLs for Bud's, is FFL fees sure vary alot.


Some guns you can't get locally. But sometimes if local prices were closer, I suspect Bud's wouldn't get so much business, and be able to lower their prices more.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by BarryLee

So, does the FFL have to know the cost of the gun for record keeping purposes? I sort of assume they do, but was just curious if I could request the seller to not ship the pricing info. with the gun.

Cjwils nailed it: They probably need that info in order to charge you tax, but I don't know your state laws.

Here in WA at the shop where I work, we need a copy of the invoice for every gun transferred to our shop from another dealer. That way we can accurately calculate the required tax. WA state law requires us to collect tax on the full amount the customer paid, including shipping.

Sometimes customers try to conceal the full price that they paid in order to avoid paying the full amount of taxes. We don't play that game; we have no interest in helping the customer commit tax fraud, and we also have no interest in getting slammed during a state tax audit.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by BarryLee

In the past, I’ve ordered a couple of guns on-line and when they arrive at the FFL they include a copy of the invoice which shows the purchase price. Once when I went to pick-up a gun the guys at the LGS gave me a hard time about the cost of the gun. Whether they were right or wrong it is none of their business how I spend my money.

In what way did they give you a hard time about the cost of the gun? Did they tell you you paid too much, did they complain that a small shop could never match those prices, or did they try to withhold the invoice from you?

I'm not sure just what the question is.

[FITASC]

Here in WA at the shop where I work, we need a copy of the invoice for every gun transferred to our shop from another dealer. That way we can accurately calculate the required tax. WA state law requires us to collect tax on the full amount the customer paid, including shipping.

Since when is shipping a taxable item?

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by FITASC

Since when is shipping a taxable item?

I don't know how long it's been, but at least since 2012 when I moved to WA and started working at a gun shop. It's not a sales tax, it's a use tax. WA state RCW 82.12.020 outlines use taxes, and the state department of revenue specifically states that taxs paid on firearm transfers must take into account the shipping cost. As far as I know, the only thing that changed recently regarding taxes paid on firearm transfers is that the implementation of I-594 in December 2014 removed the tax collection requirement on guns transferred to a shop from an individual. The use tax is still supposed to be paid to the DoR by the transferee, but the transferring dealer doesn't collect it unless the gun is being shipped by a dealer.

Here's a direct quote from the WA state DoR:

The tax due is generally determined by the purchase price paid by the transferee to the seller, which includes freight, delivery and insurance charges. If this purchase price is not known, or if the transferee acquires the firearm in a manner other than an arms-length sales transaction, the firearms dealer must determine the taxable amount by using the current fair market value of the firearm as provided by RCW 82.12.010. Current fair market value may be determined by the insured value, a recent appraisal, or a reliable resource, such as a respected publisher of gun values. Values are subject to audit verification.

http://dor.wa.gov/Docs/Pubs/SpecialN...4_Firearms.pdf

[JoeSixpack]

In the past, I’ve ordered a couple of guns on-line and when they arrive at the FFL they include a copy of the invoice which shows the purchase price. Once when I went to pick-up a gun the guys at the LGS gave me a hard time about the cost of the gun. Whether they were right or wrong it is none of their business how I spend my money.

Hard time how? to low? to high? you're right it's none of their concern how much/little you paid for the gun.

So, does the FFL have to know the cost of the gun for record keeping purposes? I sort of assume they do, but was just curious if I could request the seller to not ship the pricing info. with the gun.

I can't say honestly 1 way or the other but I do not think so.
Their income is based on the service they provide not the cost of the gun.

FFL's will charge based on # of guns on a form or even type of guns, but that's their own price structure I use to have a dealer that would transfer "per form", I would kick them a extra few bucks If I bought more though.

It sounds like lazy clerk work.
Just throw all the paper work in the package and let the guys at the other end sort it out.

Not sure if CDNN still does this but they use to provide a paper invoice addressed to the buyer with the gun.
I personally didn't care the FFL seen the pricing and it was nice to have.

On the other hand I just bought a gun from Iowagun.com and while CS was friendly and shipping was fast they did not provide any paperwork with the gun to my FFL (actually first time using the FFL)
The FFL claims no paper work for me was included with the gun.
This was quite annoying as the dealer did not provide any sort of paper work for their end and I had nothing (including the online invoice) from iowagun that had my guns serial number on it.

If anything I would REQUEST a paper invoice with the gun in the future.

In some states the FFL needs a copy of the invoice as the basis for calculating your state sales tax.

Here in WA at the shop where I work, we need a copy of the invoice for every gun transferred to our shop from another dealer. That way we can accurately calculate the required tax. WA state law requires us to collect tax on the full amount the customer paid, including shipping.

SO at first this did not sound right to me, But I thought I should google around before opening my mouth and sure enough I think you both are right.

When we buy online typically we think of them as tax free.. small ticket items generally are not enforced..small ticket being anything other then say vehicles, and such.

Now I knew that the sales tax is actually a combination of taxes and the reason we can get away with "tax free" internet purchases is because (usually) the collection burden is for the business in your state with physical presences including warehouses to collect on behalf of the state from you.

However if the business does not have a presence they do not collect the sales tax (for their home state) and the burden shifts to the buyer to pay the tax (use tax) to their state in good faith, but again enforcement is usually nill because any individual transaction is usually to small to track and collect.

However it appears both of you are right especially in this instance because the goods have to be moved thru a physical business within the buyers state (the ffl) some states place this burden on them to collect the tax on the states behalf as if they're the ones selling the goods/gun.
I do not know all the states but it appears CA is at least one of them.

So I guess you learn something new every day.
I think it's especially messed up having to pay taxes on shipping though.

[bn12gg]

I tend to vote with my feet -- make me uncomfortable and I'd just smile as I walked away taking my transfers elsewhere. No biggie here imo.

.02. David.

[BarryLee]

I'm not sure just what the question is.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, but the question was: Does an FFL that handles the transfer of an on-line purchase have to record the cost of the gun in their records.

Hard time how?

Well, as one employee was completing the transfer, checking my forms, ID and weapons license he commented that it was a nice gun. Another employee walks over looks at the gun and the invoice and says something like, “man for that amount of money I could have bought a bunch of guns”. Can’t say I was really offend and wanted to cry, but then again it didn’t seem very professional to ridicule your customers.

Again, no big deal either way I was just curious.

[Nathan]

Forget about it. Usually employees have 2 thoughts on a transfer. Cool gun, can i play with it since all we sell are these junkie high profit models..... or whah! I wanna cry because i got no commission and have to work. Both are meaningless gun shop drivle imo

[JWT]

If the LGS wants to gripe, let em gripe. As long as the complete they transaction at a reasonable price, who cares?

[Damon555]

I've never gotten a comment from any of the FFL dealers on the cost of the firearm that was shipped to them.....It obvious why they don't say anything because if their prices were even close I would buy from them....But when they get beat by 20 or 30 percent there's not much to say....The FFL dealer I use is happy to do transfers though.....They get 25 bucks a pop for 15 minutes worth of work. They don't mind at all.....

[TruthTellers]

Whenever I buy new firearms that are in current production, my FFL's are usually curious as to what the price is from their internet competition. Hint: online prices are always lower.

I feel some sympathy for my local gun stores because if I didn't have to wait 8 days for the state background check period to take possession of my property, I'd probably buy more from my lgs.

Yes, I end up paying more for the gun and add the sales tax on top of that, but being able to go to a store, buy a gun I want, and walk out with it same day is nice.

But, since I have to wait 8 days to exercise my right, I buy online and tell the sellers not to rush with shipping and to ship ground if possible. It's not my local gun stores fault, they have to follow local law to stay in business, but I'm not going to give money and wait over a week and pay a tax to the state that's delaying my right only to end up feeding the beast.

[Chainsaw.]

I did have ome gun shop owner tell me that if I ordered a gun for an online retailer and had it shipped to him for a transfer he would charhe me the transfer AND the difference for what he would have charged if I bought it off the shelf from him. Needless to say he never got any business from me.

TheOhazzard. Thanks for the heads up on that, Ill be a little more thoughtful when Im shopping online.

[BearBrimstone]

I like having a physical receipt, so I prefer when dealers include one in the package. I have yet to have an LGS mention the price I paid on the receipt, but I suspect that is due to the fact that the price is always much lower than they are charging.

[g.willikers]

he would charge me the transfer AND the difference for what he would have charged if I bought it off the shelf from him.

And the winner for the most entitlement minded dealer not to do business with is.....

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by Chainsaw

I did have ome gun shop owner tell me that if I ordered a gun for an online retailer and had it shipped to him for a transfer he would charhe me the transfer AND the difference for what he would have charged if I bought it off the shelf from him.

So, if he has a $600 dollar Ruger AR-15 on the shelf and you order the same gun online for $1,000, then he will give you $400 minus the normal transfer fee I wouldn't worry about it. With policies like that, that store won't likely be in business very long...

[dogtown tom]

Chainsaw. I did have ome gun shop owner tell me that if I ordered a gun for an online retailer and had it shipped to him for a transfer he would charhe me the transfer AND the difference for what he would have charged if I bought it off the shelf from him. Needless to say he never got any business from me.

I think that's his way of telling you he doesn't really want to do transfers.

[FrankenMauser]

I think that's his way of telling you he doesn't really want to do transfers.

At least he found out beforehand.

About 4 years ago, I had a dirt bag FFL change his policy on transfers AFTER a multi-firearm shipment was in the mail.
Rather than honoring his word, or even erring on the side of customer service, he chose greed and extortion.

His transfer fee went from $45 to $255 when I walked in the store.
(I did not pay it. The shipping FFL, the ATF, and LEOs on both ends "persuaded" the dirt bag to transfer the shipment to another local FFL for final disposition.)