New twist--shoot you in self-defense?

LASur5r · November 8, 2000, 04:58 PM

My wife and I had talked about a situation where either you or your spouse is taken as hostage by knife or gun point (My last thread).
Let's say in this scenario, your wife is held hostage, you have drawn your weapon, but this time the BG hides behind your wife where you don't have a clear shot. What do you do?

We talked of shooting through the hostage if the BG is taking her away where the situation could get a lot worse? We know they show it in the movies, but in real life...what can you do?

Shoot him in the foot, leg? on a moving target?

The best we came up with if the hostage feels he/she can take the chance, is put a counter lock on the weapon hand so that for a second the weapon is not in a killing position, and go into a kneeling shoulder throw or drop to the floor if possible. Then you can take your shot because the hostage is giving you a clear shot for a second.

Any ideas?

dragontooth73 · November 8, 2000, 11:40 PM

Simple deadweighting is enough ... hard for most people to support even a 100lbs with one hand should it go limp ... hostage should go "faint" and serve as a drag.

I think it'd be hard for perps to kill a hostage in a crisis situation; having taken one and invested in getting one with lost escape time and risking capture and retaliation, a perp is not going to just "cap" a hostage unless he's on a serious drug binge or mento to begin with. Besides, if he shoots, then he's open for a countershot immediately, and it takes him longer to get his gun into position than yours.

I wouldn't ask my wifey to attempt a shoulder throw. Too small for that. Or a counter lock. Small hands. I mean maybe she might, and maybe she'd be right in being confident about it, but the situation I think will always be of a BG who outmasses your wife, and has a one-armed grip around the neck or torse from behind right?

I still think the best thing for the hostage to do release all tension in the body. It's good to not be nervous, and serves to lower body position, or prepare for a throw.

Wait, in my case it's moot ... wifey is 5' barely. On average I'm always going to have a clear shot

Unless some 10 year old holds her up ...

Rakekniven · November 9, 2000, 12:30 AM

While it's no laughing matter, that 10 year old comment sent me lmao.

Anyway, it seems like in this situation, unless the hostage is very level headed and both you and your wife have practiced for this contingency, you run the risk of further agrivating the perp when the plan doesn't work because you are unsure what the hostage is going to do or vice versa.

dragontooth73 · November 9, 2000, 02:46 AM

Actually any BG that takes my wifey hostage is already aggravated I think by whatever need to take a hostage forces him to do so. BG also is aggravating, but that's something else.

Ya I was lmao when I typed in the 10 year old thing. I can see it happen too. "Pocket Dilingers" ... I guess. Or is it "Pokemon Dilingers" ... anyways:

Point of this thread is to work out which is the best contingency. I think. That means a bit of discussion with the wifey anyhow. In all honesty though, a married couple is more likely to possess an affinity for silent communication and "reading minds" that rivals any two SEAL buddies (no offense intended.) I think things are more likely to go fine even in an impromptu situation.

Unless that couple happens to be Bill and Hillary ... er, check out Gunslinger's thread

Gopher .45 · November 9, 2000, 10:38 AM

It is great that LASur5r has at least spoken with the spouse about such matters and is trying to solve a potential problem before it is a problem. What is very important is that the pair have a system already in place that will potentially help to rectify the situation should it occur. My wife and I have a series of verbal commands for such face to face conflicts. Of course, they require being able to hear which is something we count on. My commands of left or right means she is to pivot that way as much as possible. "Sag" means to go limp and be dead weight. Ideally then, I would get a clean shot at the perp.

These are simple concepts for a dynamically complex situation. They will not cover all events. Our reasoning is that we don't know all the possible contingencies and that by having at least rudimentary and generalized planned procedures that are applicable to many situations, we are best prepared then trying to figure out all the possible scenarios and contingencies.

My wife was worried that our roles would be reversed and that I would be the hostage and that she might end of shooting me. This is a real concern all the way around. I simply explained that I am counting on her to give it her best shot and that if she does shoot me and I go down, then she should not hesitate in continuing to fire at the perp. It may be her only opportunity at a clean shot only after I am down. She still was not good with that idea and I explained that I would rather she shot me trying to save me than the perp shooting me and she doing nothing to stop it.

Of course, I don't want to be shot, but if someone gets to shoot me, I figure my wife gets first dibs.

As an aside, when we go places, especially unfamiliar places, we usually work out what to do in emergencies, where to meet up if we have t split, and so on. Once again, simple and very basic planning that will hopefully be applicable to dynamic and complex situations.

In scuba diving, there is a safety saying that says "Plan your dive and dive your plan." The concept works for a lot of situations.

November 8, 2000, 04:58 PM	#1
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	My wife and I had talked about a situation where either you or your spouse is taken as hostage by knife or gun point (My last thread). Let's say in this scenario, your wife is held hostage, you have drawn your weapon, but this time the BG hides behind your wife where you don't have a clear shot. What do you do? We talked of shooting through the hostage if the BG is taking her away where the situation could get a lot worse? We know they show it in the movies, but in real life...what can you do? Shoot him in the foot, leg? on a moving target? The best we came up with if the hostage feels he/she can take the chance, is put a counter lock on the weapon hand so that for a second the weapon is not in a killing position, and go into a kneeling shoulder throw or drop to the floor if possible. Then you can take your shot because the hostage is giving you a clear shot for a second. Any ideas?

November 8, 2000, 11:40 PM	#2
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	Simple deadweighting is enough ... hard for most people to support even a 100lbs with one hand should it go limp ... hostage should go "faint" and serve as a drag. I think it'd be hard for perps to kill a hostage in a crisis situation; having taken one and invested in getting one with lost escape time and risking capture and retaliation, a perp is not going to just "cap" a hostage unless he's on a serious drug binge or mento to begin with. Besides, if he shoots, then he's open for a countershot immediately, and it takes him longer to get his gun into position than yours. I wouldn't ask my wifey to attempt a shoulder throw. Too small for that. Or a counter lock. Small hands. I mean maybe she might, and maybe she'd be right in being confident about it, but the situation I think will always be of a BG who outmasses your wife, and has a one-armed grip around the neck or torse from behind right? I still think the best thing for the hostage to do release all tension in the body. It's good to not be nervous, and serves to lower body position, or prepare for a throw. Wait, in my case it's moot ... wifey is 5' barely. On average I'm always going to have a clear shot Unless some 10 year old holds her up ...

November 9, 2000, 12:30 AM	#3
Rakekniven Member Join Date: May 12, 2000 Location: Corvallis, OR Posts: 63	While it's no laughing matter, that 10 year old comment sent me lmao. Anyway, it seems like in this situation, unless the hostage is very level headed and both you and your wife have practiced for this contingency, you run the risk of further agrivating the perp when the plan doesn't work because you are unsure what the hostage is going to do or vice versa.

November 9, 2000, 02:46 AM	#4
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	Actually any BG that takes my wifey hostage is already aggravated I think by whatever need to take a hostage forces him to do so. BG also is aggravating, but that's something else. Ya I was lmao when I typed in the 10 year old thing. I can see it happen too. "Pocket Dilingers" ... I guess. Or is it "Pokemon Dilingers" ... anyways: Point of this thread is to work out which is the best contingency. I think. That means a bit of discussion with the wifey anyhow. In all honesty though, a married couple is more likely to possess an affinity for silent communication and "reading minds" that rivals any two SEAL buddies (no offense intended.) I think things are more likely to go fine even in an impromptu situation. Unless that couple happens to be Bill and Hillary ... er, check out Gunslinger's thread

November 9, 2000, 10:38 AM	#5
Gopher .45 Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2000 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 384	It is great that LASur5r has at least spoken with the spouse about such matters and is trying to solve a potential problem before it is a problem. What is very important is that the pair have a system already in place that will potentially help to rectify the situation should it occur. My wife and I have a series of verbal commands for such face to face conflicts. Of course, they require being able to hear which is something we count on. My commands of left or right means she is to pivot that way as much as possible. "Sag" means to go limp and be dead weight. Ideally then, I would get a clean shot at the perp. These are simple concepts for a dynamically complex situation. They will not cover all events. Our reasoning is that we don't know all the possible contingencies and that by having at least rudimentary and generalized planned procedures that are applicable to many situations, we are best prepared then trying to figure out all the possible scenarios and contingencies. My wife was worried that our roles would be reversed and that I would be the hostage and that she might end of shooting me. This is a real concern all the way around. I simply explained that I am counting on her to give it her best shot and that if she does shoot me and I go down, then she should not hesitate in continuing to fire at the perp. It may be her only opportunity at a clean shot only after I am down. She still was not good with that idea and I explained that I would rather she shot me trying to save me than the perp shooting me and she doing nothing to stop it. Of course, I don't want to be shot, but if someone gets to shoot me, I figure my wife gets first dibs. As an aside, when we go places, especially unfamiliar places, we usually work out what to do in emergencies, where to meet up if we have t split, and so on. Once again, simple and very basic planning that will hopefully be applicable to dynamic and complex situations. In scuba diving, there is a safety saying that says "Plan your dive and dive your plan." The concept works for a lot of situations.