Scenario: I should have taken that job at Burger World.

LawDog · November 9, 2000, 02:50 AM

You are driving your vehicle, with your normal complement of weapons in an unfamiliar rural area of your state. You are on a divided four lane highway, two lanes going west, a grassy median and two lanes going east.

Ahead of you, you see a County Sheriff cruiser that has pulled over a late-model SUV. As you pass the traffic stop, you see that the rear window is missing from the SUV, and there are what appear to be bulletholes in the front windshield of the cruiser.

There are two people struggling on the tarmac between the two vehicles. The white male is the one on top, and he is pinning the gun hand of a black male to the ground with his foot, as he applies a front choke to the black male with his left hand. The black male is on the bottom, he has the gun hand of the white male firmly gripped with his off hand and the weapon pointed away from the black males head.

SUSPECT #1: Black male, middle thirties, wearing a grey suit. Armed with a Glock handgun.

SUSPECT #2: White male, late twenties, wearing jeans and a denim long-sleeved shirt. Armed with a 1911-style pistol.

An 18-wheeler pulls to a stop on the opposite lane of traffic and a white male carrying a shotgun exits the tractor-trailer and begins to run to the scene of the assault, a distance of approximately 100 feet.

The choke is locked on. The black male has about seven seconds of consciousness, then his lights go out. One way or another.

Go!

LawDog

David Blinder · November 9, 2000, 07:26 AM

Since you have no apparent way of determining which is the good guy, I'd say that from cover, you attempt to find out who the BG is. Should also discourage the trucker from jumping into the fray.

twist996 · November 9, 2000, 07:28 AM

aaaaahhhhhh......uuuuhhhhh.....not enough info, and being as i'm sitting at my computer, and not behind the wheel of my truck, i'll remain passive for this one....not enough info for me to plan something brave/stupid....it would seem to me that:
1) the suit w/ glock would be the cop, but perhaps not (1911 aren't used much any more)...
2) the approaching truck driver is a concerened citizen, but still a threat...
3) it's going to get bad very shortly....

------------------
speak now, or forever hold your peace

Joe Demko · November 9, 2000, 07:47 AM

I think, sad as it is, all you can do here with the information given is be a witness. There is no way of knowing at this point just who is who or what is going on with the information given. The trucker is a wild card as well. About all I can say is be ready to off the white guy if he looks like he is going to shoot the black guy after he chokes him out. What a mess.

LASur5r · November 10, 2000, 06:28 PM

This is what all y'all's training has been for...this kind of incident.

My .02 cents worth.

Get some hard cover where you can see all three people especially the combatants, close enough that they can hear you hopefully.

Command everyone to drop their weapons while covering all of them with your weapon. Repeat command, identifying each person who does not immediately comply and get ready to drop the hammer should anyone point their weapon in your direction.
I think realistically, that you cannot prevent the two combatants from shooting one another because of their proximity to each other. They're too close and unless your commanding voice breaks through their thoughts of survival, they could pull the trigger before you know it.
And even if they shoot one another, you do not pull the trigger unless they look like they are going to do a deliberate coup d'etat (finishing shot).
I don't believe a good LEO would do that...only if the other guy is moving around with his weapon in hand.

Okay...I'm ready to get flamed..."Who let the dogs out?!" Please point out all the tactical errors so that I can learn.

dragontooth73 · November 10, 2000, 10:25 PM

woof woof

(1) Hard cover - perfect idea. We have what, 2 semiautomatics and a shotgun in close proximity? The pistols don't bother me so much, but that shotgun looks evil. Hard cover sounds cozy ...

(2) Warning shots maybe? Would attract the attention of the neighborhood, certainly. Would stop everyone dead in their tracks for the moment, sure. Enough for a command voice to have effect. Besides, all this is taking besides a 4-lane highway, right? Noise would be a problem, I'm sure, for just a voice to be heard in the heat of the moment - especially if you can't get close enough. Few responsible blasts in the air sounds good.

(3) After that, have everybody disarm and sort them out ... hopefully. I'm sure a nice long arm would help much more in this situation for intimidation factor.

And if everyone else ends up blowing each other away, at least you get to go home to your wife and kids coz you made sure you followed (1).

Rakekniven · November 11, 2000, 05:20 AM

dragontooth,

you mentioned firing into the air, and that brings up another good point. Is it better to fire into the air (keeping in mind that those bullets do have to come down somewhere) or fire into the ground (keeping in mind the possibility of a richochet)?

dragontooth73 · November 11, 2000, 01:31 PM

I figure the odds of a bullet coming down in a relatively sparse area like LA right down on someone are pretty scarce. I mean, this is all taking besides a 4-lane highway - there's even a tractor trailor involved, which means the entire vicinity is probably all concrete (i.e. big parking lot.) I'd rather not shoot and get any ricochet - even assuming it doesn't hug the ground, deflect at a low angle and hit a car/person/window/whatever, it's still going to have to go UP for this not to happen, right?

Blanks would be great ... or maybe buckshot ... but failing either it's still better to shoot straight up, I think ...

Correia · November 11, 2000, 06:26 PM

Gonna have to disagree on the warning shots, in this situation it could make either the cop (which ever one that is) or the trucker think that your a friend of the bad guy and you could start receiving fire. Especially if they just hear shooting and then look up and see you with a gun.

I would try and use the patrol car a cover, and I'm going on the assumption that the trucker is on the side of the good guys. Come up over the hood, point my .45 at the two combatants and say something to the effect of "Freeze." Cover them and then demand to see the badge. Then hold them both there at gunpoint. Either the trucker or I would use the patrol car CB to see who the cop was if no badge was produced.

Interesting that Lawdog posted this, isn't bluejeans and a denim shirt what the law down in your area wear?

Just because one guy is dressed in a suit doesn't really mean anything either way.

dragontooth73 · November 11, 2000, 06:35 PM

Wups ... you're right ... it's a police cruiser that's the second car ... So where's the uniform ... hmm ... are you sure you're going to trust the trucker ... ? ... what's LawDog's answer for all this?

IamNOTaNUT · November 12, 2000, 02:35 AM

So there I am, minding my own business when all of a sudden I find my self immersed in a world of fecal matter.

I see this as I am driving by on the interstate, the guy is 7 seconds from being choked out . . .

I hit the brakes and pull over, I exit my vehicle, and run like the wind to the aide of (hopefully) the copper. By that time fifteen seconds have elapsed and one of the men in passed out / dead.

If the remaining guy gets up, runs to his vehicle and starts to drive away I cap him. Otherwise I ask the deputy if there is anything I can do to help.

Now, before anyone flames me for pulling the trigger on the bad guy, I think it is safe to assume that there has been a running gun battle between the forces of good and evil. That, combined with the hand clenched firmly around the throat, would lead any reasonable man to believe that this is a deadly force encounter.

From an LEO perspective, being that this occurred right in front of you, and a man that kills a cop is presumably an imminent threat to others, he is cannon fodder.

From a non-LEO perspective, a man that kills a cop is a threat to any witness, and you are a witness. Therefore it wouldn't take much more than the man to look your way and say "boo" to put the fear of God into you and thus allow you to defend yourself. The man could get into his vehicle and run over the cop to finish him off, you aren't sure he's dead yet, so you would be attempting to save the deputy's life and prevent an armed and dangerous felon from escape.

This all hinges on the assumption that the cop is not going to get into the non-cop car and drive off while the victim is lying on the ground.

I am not a lawyer, and I do not play one on T.V., but I think that the above actions would be reasonable under the circumstances.

------------------
IamNOTaNUT

Though I readily admit to being a bit odd.

NRA

IamNOTaNUT · November 12, 2000, 02:41 AM

There's just one more thing.

Yes, I know cover is a good thing, and lack of cover is a bad thing, but when lives are on the line and seconds count, a man has to make a choice. I will take a risk to help an officer, though I know there are people out there who would consider that notion foolish at best. You would probably live longer if you did not follow my examples through life.
[/b][/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by IamNOTaNUT (edited November 12, 2000).]

dragontooth73 · November 12, 2000, 11:56 AM

Actually, that's the thing ... everyone involved in this thing is dressed in civvies ... assuming this is one real big fight, it'd be hard to identify the weapons conclusively anyways ... twist996 said the suit is the cop but can't be sure ... Correia pointed out that you can't be sure either way ... there's a very real chance of shooting the wrong person ... and what about that trucker with the 12-gauge?

Waiting for LawDog from up on high to tell us ...

Don Gwinn · November 12, 2000, 01:50 PM

I hang back behind cover and scream my head off for both of them to drop their weapons. If I could be somewhat around the clock from the trucker (like 9 o'clock and 5 o' clock) so I have some cover from him too, that would be good.

If they don't listen to me, I'm behind cover and nothing is worse than it was before I arrived. Jumping in and trying to make it better seems to me like an easy way to get surprised when it gets much, much worse.

I have no idea if any of this is correct, so I don't know if I'd actually try it. Does it make any sense to give some priority to getting to the cruiser and trying to summon help in a hurry, or are they already on their way?
If the cop finishes the bg and turns around to find me using his radio with a pistol in hand, will he cap me?
If the bg finishes the cop and turns around to find me using the radio with a pistol in hand, will HE cap me? (Then again, HE would probably cap me on sight either way.)

LawDog · November 12, 2000, 03:31 PM

This scenario is a recreation of a New Mexico situation. As some have pointed out, the man with the 1911 was the Peace Officer.

It's quite easy to simulate this one with a couple of B27 targets laid down to simulate the fighters and a screaming referee as the truck driver. People I have trained and friends of mine hate this one.

Real life Lethal Force situation are incredibly complex affairs. I hope I have introduced a bit of that complexity.

LawDog

November 9, 2000, 02:50 AM	#1
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	You are driving your vehicle, with your normal complement of weapons in an unfamiliar rural area of your state. You are on a divided four lane highway, two lanes going west, a grassy median and two lanes going east. Ahead of you, you see a County Sheriff cruiser that has pulled over a late-model SUV. As you pass the traffic stop, you see that the rear window is missing from the SUV, and there are what appear to be bulletholes in the front windshield of the cruiser. There are two people struggling on the tarmac between the two vehicles. The white male is the one on top, and he is pinning the gun hand of a black male to the ground with his foot, as he applies a front choke to the black male with his left hand. The black male is on the bottom, he has the gun hand of the white male firmly gripped with his off hand and the weapon pointed away from the black males head. SUSPECT #1: Black male, middle thirties, wearing a grey suit. Armed with a Glock handgun. SUSPECT #2: White male, late twenties, wearing jeans and a denim long-sleeved shirt. Armed with a 1911-style pistol. An 18-wheeler pulls to a stop on the opposite lane of traffic and a white male carrying a shotgun exits the tractor-trailer and begins to run to the scene of the assault, a distance of approximately 100 feet. The choke is locked on. The black male has about seven seconds of consciousness, then his lights go out. One way or another. Go! LawDog

November 9, 2000, 07:26 AM	#2
David Blinder Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Norcross, GA USA Posts: 327	Since you have no apparent way of determining which is the good guy, I'd say that from cover, you attempt to find out who the BG is. Should also discourage the trucker from jumping into the fray.

November 9, 2000, 07:28 AM	#3
twist996 Member Join Date: October 20, 2000 Posts: 85	aaaaahhhhhh......uuuuhhhhh.....not enough info, and being as i'm sitting at my computer, and not behind the wheel of my truck, i'll remain passive for this one....not enough info for me to plan something brave/stupid....it would seem to me that: 1) the suit w/ glock would be the cop, but perhaps not (1911 aren't used much any more)... 2) the approaching truck driver is a concerened citizen, but still a threat... 3) it's going to get bad very shortly.... ------------------ speak now, or forever hold your peace

November 9, 2000, 07:47 AM	#4
Joe Demko Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2000 Posts: 1,143	I think, sad as it is, all you can do here with the information given is be a witness. There is no way of knowing at this point just who is who or what is going on with the information given. The trucker is a wild card as well. About all I can say is be ready to off the white guy if he looks like he is going to shoot the black guy after he chokes him out. What a mess.

November 10, 2000, 06:28 PM	#5
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	This is what all y'all's training has been for...this kind of incident. My .02 cents worth. Get some hard cover where you can see all three people especially the combatants, close enough that they can hear you hopefully. Command everyone to drop their weapons while covering all of them with your weapon. Repeat command, identifying each person who does not immediately comply and get ready to drop the hammer should anyone point their weapon in your direction. I think realistically, that you cannot prevent the two combatants from shooting one another because of their proximity to each other. They're too close and unless your commanding voice breaks through their thoughts of survival, they could pull the trigger before you know it. And even if they shoot one another, you do not pull the trigger unless they look like they are going to do a deliberate coup d'etat (finishing shot). I don't believe a good LEO would do that...only if the other guy is moving around with his weapon in hand. Okay...I'm ready to get flamed..."Who let the dogs out?!" Please point out all the tactical errors so that I can learn.

November 10, 2000, 10:25 PM	#6
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	woof woof (1) Hard cover - perfect idea. We have what, 2 semiautomatics and a shotgun in close proximity? The pistols don't bother me so much, but that shotgun looks evil. Hard cover sounds cozy ... (2) Warning shots maybe? Would attract the attention of the neighborhood, certainly. Would stop everyone dead in their tracks for the moment, sure. Enough for a command voice to have effect. Besides, all this is taking besides a 4-lane highway, right? Noise would be a problem, I'm sure, for just a voice to be heard in the heat of the moment - especially if you can't get close enough. Few responsible blasts in the air sounds good. (3) After that, have everybody disarm and sort them out ... hopefully. I'm sure a nice long arm would help much more in this situation for intimidation factor. And if everyone else ends up blowing each other away, at least you get to go home to your wife and kids coz you made sure you followed (1).

November 11, 2000, 05:20 AM	#7
Rakekniven Member Join Date: May 12, 2000 Location: Corvallis, OR Posts: 63	dragontooth, you mentioned firing into the air, and that brings up another good point. Is it better to fire into the air (keeping in mind that those bullets do have to come down somewhere) or fire into the ground (keeping in mind the possibility of a richochet)?

November 11, 2000, 01:31 PM	#8
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	I figure the odds of a bullet coming down in a relatively sparse area like LA right down on someone are pretty scarce. I mean, this is all taking besides a 4-lane highway - there's even a tractor trailor involved, which means the entire vicinity is probably all concrete (i.e. big parking lot.) I'd rather not shoot and get any ricochet - even assuming it doesn't hug the ground, deflect at a low angle and hit a car/person/window/whatever, it's still going to have to go UP for this not to happen, right? Blanks would be great ... or maybe buckshot ... but failing either it's still better to shoot straight up, I think ...

November 11, 2000, 06:26 PM	#9
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Gonna have to disagree on the warning shots, in this situation it could make either the cop (which ever one that is) or the trucker think that your a friend of the bad guy and you could start receiving fire. Especially if they just hear shooting and then look up and see you with a gun. I would try and use the patrol car a cover, and I'm going on the assumption that the trucker is on the side of the good guys. Come up over the hood, point my .45 at the two combatants and say something to the effect of "Freeze." Cover them and then demand to see the badge. Then hold them both there at gunpoint. Either the trucker or I would use the patrol car CB to see who the cop was if no badge was produced. Interesting that Lawdog posted this, isn't bluejeans and a denim shirt what the law down in your area wear? Just because one guy is dressed in a suit doesn't really mean anything either way.

November 11, 2000, 06:35 PM	#10
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	Wups ... you're right ... it's a police cruiser that's the second car ... So where's the uniform ... hmm ... are you sure you're going to trust the trucker ... ? ... what's LawDog's answer for all this?

November 12, 2000, 02:35 AM	#11
IamNOTaNUT Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2000 Location: Michigan Posts: 477	So there I am, minding my own business when all of a sudden I find my self immersed in a world of fecal matter. I see this as I am driving by on the interstate, the guy is 7 seconds from being choked out . . . I hit the brakes and pull over, I exit my vehicle, and run like the wind to the aide of (hopefully) the copper. By that time fifteen seconds have elapsed and one of the men in passed out / dead. If the remaining guy gets up, runs to his vehicle and starts to drive away I cap him. Otherwise I ask the deputy if there is anything I can do to help. Now, before anyone flames me for pulling the trigger on the bad guy, I think it is safe to assume that there has been a running gun battle between the forces of good and evil. That, combined with the hand clenched firmly around the throat, would lead any reasonable man to believe that this is a deadly force encounter. From an LEO perspective, being that this occurred right in front of you, and a man that kills a cop is presumably an imminent threat to others, he is cannon fodder. From a non-LEO perspective, a man that kills a cop is a threat to any witness, and you are a witness. Therefore it wouldn't take much more than the man to look your way and say "boo" to put the fear of God into you and thus allow you to defend yourself. The man could get into his vehicle and run over the cop to finish him off, you aren't sure he's dead yet, so you would be attempting to save the deputy's life and prevent an armed and dangerous felon from escape. This all hinges on the assumption that the cop is not going to get into the non-cop car and drive off while the victim is lying on the ground. I am not a lawyer, and I do not play one on T.V., but I think that the above actions would be reasonable under the circumstances. ------------------ IamNOTaNUT Though I readily admit to being a bit odd. NRA

November 12, 2000, 02:41 AM	#12
IamNOTaNUT Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2000 Location: Michigan Posts: 477	There's just one more thing. Yes, I know cover is a good thing, and lack of cover is a bad thing, but when lives are on the line and seconds count, a man has to make a choice. I will take a risk to help an officer, though I know there are people out there who would consider that notion foolish at best. You would probably live longer if you did not follow my examples through life. [/b][/QUOTE] [This message has been edited by IamNOTaNUT (edited November 12, 2000).]

November 12, 2000, 11:56 AM	#13
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	Actually, that's the thing ... everyone involved in this thing is dressed in civvies ... assuming this is one real big fight, it'd be hard to identify the weapons conclusively anyways ... twist996 said the suit is the cop but can't be sure ... Correia pointed out that you can't be sure either way ... there's a very real chance of shooting the wrong person ... and what about that trucker with the 12-gauge? Waiting for LawDog from up on high to tell us ...

November 12, 2000, 01:50 PM	#14
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	I hang back behind cover and scream my head off for both of them to drop their weapons. If I could be somewhat around the clock from the trucker (like 9 o'clock and 5 o' clock) so I have some cover from him too, that would be good. If they don't listen to me, I'm behind cover and nothing is worse than it was before I arrived. Jumping in and trying to make it better seems to me like an easy way to get surprised when it gets much, much worse. I have no idea if any of this is correct, so I don't know if I'd actually try it. Does it make any sense to give some priority to getting to the cruiser and trying to summon help in a hurry, or are they already on their way? If the cop finishes the bg and turns around to find me using his radio with a pistol in hand, will he cap me? If the bg finishes the cop and turns around to find me using the radio with a pistol in hand, will HE cap me? (Then again, HE would probably cap me on sight either way.)

November 12, 2000, 03:31 PM	#15
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	This scenario is a recreation of a New Mexico situation. As some have pointed out, the man with the 1911 was the Peace Officer. It's quite easy to simulate this one with a couple of B27 targets laid down to simulate the fighters and a screaming referee as the truck driver. People I have trained and friends of mine hate this one. Real life Lethal Force situation are incredibly complex affairs. I hope I have introduced a bit of that complexity. LawDog