Three feet away---take the shot? Scenario.

LASur5r · November 7, 2000, 08:25 PM

Scenario---you're walking with your wife just enjoying each other's company, doing some window shopping because that's all your budget allows...she stops and look in one store's window when the display in the next store's window catches your eye, you walk over to the other window intending to just glance at the display and come immediately back to your wife.
A goblin has just robbed the store where your wife is looking at the window display. He steps out of the door as you were looking in the second window.
He sees a patrol car coming down the street, he's standing two steps from your wife and decides he's about to be caught so he grabs the first hostage he can get a hold of...it's your wife!
You're three feet away when you see him grab your wife around the throat with his left arm and his right hand brings up a revolver to point it at your wife's head. He hasn't noticed you yet and he is holding perfectly still for the moment.

You're packing in your fastest rig. How many of you would draw and take the shot?

Let's say you were able to already draw your weapon...would you try to take the shot? or would you wait for a better opportunity.

dragontooth73 · November 7, 2000, 08:40 PM

I'm not a professional, but if I was packing I'd draw, align the best shot possible, and fire asap. Then drop prone, spreadeagle out on the ground with firearm at a distance so I don't get shot down inadvertantly by the arriving cavalry.

Perp's obviously in an unexpected situation, hence prone to panic. He's alone and I see that as adding to it. I do not trust the police at this point to be able to guarantee my wife's safety. Every second that passes is precious time that endangers her to the bullets of both the police and the perp. The quicker it ends, the better. In a situation with multiple hostages, I can understand waiting for backup and SWAT snipers etc. However I do not trust the instincts of a criminal to act rationally in a state of siege. The more time that elapses, the worse the outcome becomes regardless. I'd shoot. That's me.

Joe Demko · November 8, 2000, 07:50 AM

Take the shot. Drop and spread eagle on the pavement. The marksmanship of the average cop does not inspire me with great confidence.

David Scott · November 8, 2000, 08:32 AM

Do NOT wait, the situation can only get worse. I would have to pop the SOB before he recovered from the panic response of seeing the car and grabbing a hostage. You have to drop him brain-dead so he doesn't pull the trigger in a spasm (I assume the revolver is double-action). At 3 feet it would be no problem to place the shot just behind the ear (if side view) or at the base of the skull (rear). Angle it upward so the round doesn't carry into a bystander if it blows through. Once he drops, be ready to put down your weapon and show your hands and your permit, because those cops are going to be coming at you.

SB · November 8, 2000, 12:18 PM

For me, it would depend on the details of the situation. How distracted is the perp and for how long? Is there any possibility of the situation stabilizing soon? Is he headed for a vehicle or down the street? Is his finger in the trigger or not? Etc.

Deaf Smith · November 8, 2000, 01:17 PM

Not 4 weeks ago, at our regular IDPA match, we had a mover setup on one stage. In the stage, the mover was on a carrage that was pulled by a rope. The one pulling the rope walked backwards and the speed of a walk, simulating the BG dragging ones spouse. It would transverse the range while the shooter had to hit two other BGs first. The catch was, the mover had the shooters SPOUSE as a hostage. Stapled the no-shoot target over the shoot target with just the head of the shoot target exposed. We had three or four shooters shoot their spouse! One even shot his wife twice (we ran the stage 3 times for each shooter).

I went home happy, told my wife I did not shoot her today. She said, "that's nice".

As to the scenario you are talking about, if I was very close (3 feet) I might step forward, press the muzzle against the BGs head, and fire, zero range. I might also plead with him to take my car, but leave my wife (no jokes here guys, I know there are lots you can put here). I do know shooting a moveing head with another head right beside it is a very dangerious shot to do.

I might add, when my wife shops, I usually step back and keep an eye on what is going on around us, watch out for her purse, etc... cute chicks ops... (women shop for things that I just die of boredom when I am there, so standing back and watching other things is just fine with me).

Deaf Smith

LASur5r · November 8, 2000, 04:50 PM

Deaf Smith,
You don't live in our Republic of Kalifornia do you?
Only recently have I decided to looking into the IDPA matches...need to do more research and visit some.
Sounds like you have had some pretty good training...I know I need to get started.
Keep it up, you're going to recruit more IDPA people with your posts.

Javahed · November 8, 2000, 06:25 PM

Hell yes take the shot! Then pray that the cops don't do the same to me

Dan

------------------
http://www.gogetemgear.com

Deaf Smith · November 8, 2000, 07:56 PM

LASur5r,

I live in Bushland (Texas). IDPA matches are as good only as the ones who run them. Last time, besides the mover with a hostage, we had one stage where you had to use crutches. Yes, you had to hobble to the table where your gun was, then take out three attackers while your wife stood half way in the way. Two of the attackers were partly shielded by the doors and windows.

At other matches, we have had 'chargers', that is, movers that come your way. Now this is not hard or expensive to make. Just a wooden trolly that has slots in the bottoms for wood stakes about 1/2 inch square, 4 foot tall. Staple the targets to the stakes, then use a nylon rope to pull it. The mover is the same thing, except by putting a stake at one of the two far corners (a rounded stake so the rope can slide around it). Put the trolly at the other corner, snake the rope around the round stake, and have the puller behind the safe line (about 5 yards behind the shooter). On the signal, the puller just backs up pulling the rope. Works just as good as those fancy electric movers. Oh, there are several variations to this. You can have the mover woble, simulating an attackers trotting, maybe even bobing.

Anyway, I highly recomend IDPA. IDPA is very demanding in using good tactics (like 'cutting the pie', standoff from cover, shooting around cover and not over, etc..). You use your carry equipment. We get no fancy trophy, just a computer 'diplomia' type printout. Makes good costers around our house. I have my 'expert' rating in all catagories (except ESP, that is, using my P-35 High Power, I am just a sharpshooter with it).

Use the net, try www.dogpile.com as a search engine to find IDPA clubs in Kalifornia. Or hey, move to Bushland.

Deaf Smith

LASur5r · November 8, 2000, 08:16 PM

Deaf Smith,
Thanks for the response.
I have a good friend in Abilene, Texas, and I have been thinking hard on it.
Talked to the wife...she's more for the state of Washington.
Give me some time...might end up headed your way.
Stay safe.

dragontooth73 · November 8, 2000, 09:16 PM

LASur5er, I spent like 8 years of childhood in British Columbia. I spent most of my childhood hiking trails, sneaking out after school to explore the endless woods that were yards away. I loved it then. In summer I'd goto O'ahu and hit the trails. I love nature. Makes me furious to see people chuck gum and cigarette butts on the street (lit!) here on the mainland. I swear, people who have no respect for the world have nothing to offer it. Probably the same people who believe some politician will save them.

Washington state isn't bad ... I love the Pacific Northwest (except for Oregon, which I found to be Hell for various reasons. No offense.) If I had your choice though I say Texas. Visit your friend in Abilene. Treat yourself for a change. You listened to what your mother-in-law wanted, and you get jumped in a parking lot, right? At least, if you're gonna go someplace then decide from the start where you want to be comfortable taking that risk

Speaking of which, my future flip-hawaiian wife is so short (barely 5') that the perp in this scenario would most likely miss her entirely (thank God) ... probably look at me instead and say "eh u thea come ovah heah and get unda da muzzle ob dis gun" ... I just have some kind of luck LOL

Spectre · November 9, 2000, 07:20 PM

'Pends on where perp's arm is pointing by the time I can present my piece. If he doesn't see me, I can attempt virual contact shot at base of neck, especially if muzzle is not crossing SO. Alternate shot, depending on angling and perp's weapon, might be small of back.

November 7, 2000, 08:25 PM	#1
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Scenario---you're walking with your wife just enjoying each other's company, doing some window shopping because that's all your budget allows...she stops and look in one store's window when the display in the next store's window catches your eye, you walk over to the other window intending to just glance at the display and come immediately back to your wife. A goblin has just robbed the store where your wife is looking at the window display. He steps out of the door as you were looking in the second window. He sees a patrol car coming down the street, he's standing two steps from your wife and decides he's about to be caught so he grabs the first hostage he can get a hold of...it's your wife! You're three feet away when you see him grab your wife around the throat with his left arm and his right hand brings up a revolver to point it at your wife's head. He hasn't noticed you yet and he is holding perfectly still for the moment. You're packing in your fastest rig. How many of you would draw and take the shot? Let's say you were able to already draw your weapon...would you try to take the shot? or would you wait for a better opportunity.

November 7, 2000, 08:40 PM	#2
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	I'm not a professional, but if I was packing I'd draw, align the best shot possible, and fire asap. Then drop prone, spreadeagle out on the ground with firearm at a distance so I don't get shot down inadvertantly by the arriving cavalry. Perp's obviously in an unexpected situation, hence prone to panic. He's alone and I see that as adding to it. I do not trust the police at this point to be able to guarantee my wife's safety. Every second that passes is precious time that endangers her to the bullets of both the police and the perp. The quicker it ends, the better. In a situation with multiple hostages, I can understand waiting for backup and SWAT snipers etc. However I do not trust the instincts of a criminal to act rationally in a state of siege. The more time that elapses, the worse the outcome becomes regardless. I'd shoot. That's me.

November 8, 2000, 07:50 AM	#3
Joe Demko Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2000 Posts: 1,143	Take the shot. Drop and spread eagle on the pavement. The marksmanship of the average cop does not inspire me with great confidence.

November 8, 2000, 08:32 AM	#4
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	Do NOT wait, the situation can only get worse. I would have to pop the SOB before he recovered from the panic response of seeing the car and grabbing a hostage. You have to drop him brain-dead so he doesn't pull the trigger in a spasm (I assume the revolver is double-action). At 3 feet it would be no problem to place the shot just behind the ear (if side view) or at the base of the skull (rear). Angle it upward so the round doesn't carry into a bystander if it blows through. Once he drops, be ready to put down your weapon and show your hands and your permit, because those cops are going to be coming at you.

November 8, 2000, 12:18 PM	#5
SB Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 1998 Posts: 415	For me, it would depend on the details of the situation. How distracted is the perp and for how long? Is there any possibility of the situation stabilizing soon? Is he headed for a vehicle or down the street? Is his finger in the trigger or not? Etc.

November 8, 2000, 01:17 PM	#6
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Not 4 weeks ago, at our regular IDPA match, we had a mover setup on one stage. In the stage, the mover was on a carrage that was pulled by a rope. The one pulling the rope walked backwards and the speed of a walk, simulating the BG dragging ones spouse. It would transverse the range while the shooter had to hit two other BGs first. The catch was, the mover had the shooters SPOUSE as a hostage. Stapled the no-shoot target over the shoot target with just the head of the shoot target exposed. We had three or four shooters shoot their spouse! One even shot his wife twice (we ran the stage 3 times for each shooter). I went home happy, told my wife I did not shoot her today. She said, "that's nice". As to the scenario you are talking about, if I was very close (3 feet) I might step forward, press the muzzle against the BGs head, and fire, zero range. I might also plead with him to take my car, but leave my wife (no jokes here guys, I know there are lots you can put here). I do know shooting a moveing head with another head right beside it is a very dangerious shot to do. I might add, when my wife shops, I usually step back and keep an eye on what is going on around us, watch out for her purse, etc... cute chicks ops... (women shop for things that I just die of boredom when I am there, so standing back and watching other things is just fine with me). Deaf Smith

November 8, 2000, 04:50 PM	#7
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Deaf Smith, You don't live in our Republic of Kalifornia do you? Only recently have I decided to looking into the IDPA matches...need to do more research and visit some. Sounds like you have had some pretty good training...I know I need to get started. Keep it up, you're going to recruit more IDPA people with your posts.

November 8, 2000, 06:25 PM	#8
Javahed Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Posts: 68	Hell yes take the shot! Then pray that the cops don't do the same to me Dan ------------------ http://www.gogetemgear.com

November 8, 2000, 07:56 PM	#9
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	LASur5r, I live in Bushland (Texas). IDPA matches are as good only as the ones who run them. Last time, besides the mover with a hostage, we had one stage where you had to use crutches. Yes, you had to hobble to the table where your gun was, then take out three attackers while your wife stood half way in the way. Two of the attackers were partly shielded by the doors and windows. At other matches, we have had 'chargers', that is, movers that come your way. Now this is not hard or expensive to make. Just a wooden trolly that has slots in the bottoms for wood stakes about 1/2 inch square, 4 foot tall. Staple the targets to the stakes, then use a nylon rope to pull it. The mover is the same thing, except by putting a stake at one of the two far corners (a rounded stake so the rope can slide around it). Put the trolly at the other corner, snake the rope around the round stake, and have the puller behind the safe line (about 5 yards behind the shooter). On the signal, the puller just backs up pulling the rope. Works just as good as those fancy electric movers. Oh, there are several variations to this. You can have the mover woble, simulating an attackers trotting, maybe even bobing. Anyway, I highly recomend IDPA. IDPA is very demanding in using good tactics (like 'cutting the pie', standoff from cover, shooting around cover and not over, etc..). You use your carry equipment. We get no fancy trophy, just a computer 'diplomia' type printout. Makes good costers around our house. I have my 'expert' rating in all catagories (except ESP, that is, using my P-35 High Power, I am just a sharpshooter with it). Use the net, try www.dogpile.com as a search engine to find IDPA clubs in Kalifornia. Or hey, move to Bushland. Deaf Smith

November 8, 2000, 08:16 PM	#10
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Deaf Smith, Thanks for the response. I have a good friend in Abilene, Texas, and I have been thinking hard on it. Talked to the wife...she's more for the state of Washington. Give me some time...might end up headed your way. Stay safe.

November 8, 2000, 09:16 PM	#11
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	LASur5er, I spent like 8 years of childhood in British Columbia. I spent most of my childhood hiking trails, sneaking out after school to explore the endless woods that were yards away. I loved it then. In summer I'd goto O'ahu and hit the trails. I love nature. Makes me furious to see people chuck gum and cigarette butts on the street (lit!) here on the mainland. I swear, people who have no respect for the world have nothing to offer it. Probably the same people who believe some politician will save them. Washington state isn't bad ... I love the Pacific Northwest (except for Oregon, which I found to be Hell for various reasons. No offense.) If I had your choice though I say Texas. Visit your friend in Abilene. Treat yourself for a change. You listened to what your mother-in-law wanted, and you get jumped in a parking lot, right? At least, if you're gonna go someplace then decide from the start where you want to be comfortable taking that risk Speaking of which, my future flip-hawaiian wife is so short (barely 5') that the perp in this scenario would most likely miss her entirely (thank God) ... probably look at me instead and say "eh u thea come ovah heah and get unda da muzzle ob dis gun" ... I just have some kind of luck LOL

November 9, 2000, 07:20 PM	#12
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	'Pends on where perp's arm is pointing by the time I can present my piece. If he doesn't see me, I can attempt virual contact shot at base of neck, especially if muzzle is not crossing SO. Alternate shot, depending on angling and perp's weapon, might be small of back.